Strategy in 3 Player game

[Huttensohn]

Hey, I'm currently in multiplayer game als elf (1vs 1 vs 1)with two other playing, a quite powerful orc and a less powerful scaledfolk player. I have Borders with both of them, so to say.
Now it's basically the decision on whom to focus first. What is, your go to statezgy in those cases? Do you try to wipe out the smaller player first and then using the higher number of tcs do defeat the other player? Or do you defend against the weaker player while dealing with the bigger one? One strategy could also be kind of teaming up together against the more powerful player and then defeating the other one. Of course, they could also team up against me, as I have the most tcs at the moment.

I'm interested!

[Anchar]

100% unite with the raptor against the orc. I think you 2 will have little chance of defeating the orc. An orc is like Sauron in Middle-earth, it must be destroyed by united efforts, or is it a victory for the orcs.

[Midonik]

Well if you can convince the scaledfolks to do that...


Rush to wipe them out to have more tcs and then take on the orc if he refuses.

[Anchar]

I believe that you can immediately press the lose button, since people playing on beta lizards are not serious, and an orc may well win 1 against 3 other races in a battle. This fight will be a masochism full of disappointments for you.

[Anchar]

I am interested to know how your fight will end, write when you are done, and is it possible to post a screenshot of the battle here?

[DreJaDe]

Well, from a player who don't play aof for now.

I think you have a chance. If you can pressure the orc enough or destroy his buildings using the magic swordan or some fast dodges... wait.. the orc is a good player?

No chance dude.

Maybe just use the wolf strat to stall him enough for you to have all upg but yeah... no chance.

NO CHANCE!

[makazuwr32]

Ent warriors with carry cap and with support of woodshaper can help to move forward against orc player. Even against best or players.

Of course if used right and with right units inside them.

[Shark guy 35]

If you have the glade protectors, I would try to use those as they are some of the most useful eleven units in-game, from my point of view. Ents of any type also help a lot.

[Anchar]

Ents easily burn out and lose in strength to cheaper trolls, from defenders Glades are useful only archers and shields, the rest is garbage. By the time he produces Ents and Glades, the Orcs will have much more powerful fighters.

[Savra]

Trolls can also burn easily plus orcs have to wait 5 turns to get units that can disenchant that as their healing doesn't remove status effects. Also I don't know if their healing raises the heal bonus in tc like other races with normal healing.

Ents being backed by wood shapers are helpful, as they have the ability to heal them a lot. (+50 hp)

At this ents aren't exactly useless as they have some advantage like higher health and garrison. The wardens also have there uses if used correctly. For example the vanguard has bonus damage to giants, protector can do lots of damage to cavalry plus it has good armour, health, and speed, also the ability can increase both attack and speed even further.

So using them against orcs isn't a bad strategy as they would be your key strength in turning the tide in your favor if used correctly. You also might want to make sure you have some temples ready with wisps researched so you can speed up the cost for your more costly units and techs.

[Anchar]

As far as I know, an ent costs 7 moves, which is the same as a troll thrower. Ent has no attack distance and is simply weaker than a troll (even the one in 6 turns).

The cheapest elven healer is, as far as I know, a wolf shaman for 4 turns, orcs have a troll shaman for 4 turns that removes the effects of burning and restores 100% of life. Let's not take into account the Wisps that need special buildings and technologies, the orcs also have goblins are robbers.

To top it off, I want to say that even if the Ents can help in an open field, then they are absolutely useless to the siege of orc volcanoes. Even if you put healers inside them, because of the high damage of the orcs, they will destroy this wood in 1 turn.

[Savra]

Not necessarily, troll shaman can't remove burning with healing, and an ent still is quite useful in fighting orcs, one can destroy a volcano with a simple ent demolishers as well, the volcanoes start with 5 range and needed to research techs to get to 9 range, that is up to 4 techs, ent demolishers have 6 range and can research 3 techs to get to 9, additionally a player can still burn trolls fairly easily with fire archers, key here is to get at least 4 flame dots on them to deal good amounts of damage each turn. Players can increase the fire archers defence using bark skin to increase the survivability of the units, orc players may be able to use troll skin but it doesn't protect against burning.

The elves wisps are quite useful still, even though they rely on a temple of nature that doesn't make them any more useless to the elf player. Orcs scavenger's still only have 3 speed anyway.

Another issue you should avoid is panicking about it when fighting an orc player, that will in turn have you making many mistakes which ultimately leads to your downfall. Simply check your enemies weaknesses and play by that, play your cards right and you'll have it in the bag.

Also, try harassing the orc players base, use your units speed and range to your advantage and that will hinder their production.

[Anchar]

By the time the Ent Destroyer gets to the volcanoes, they will have a range of 6 or 7 if the orc doesn't hesitate. Again, the orcs can research their technologies in the center, and the technologies of the Ents of the destroyers are studied in an expensive building and you forgot about 4 technologies for opening the Ents. In addition, the Ent destroyer will not destroy the tower with 1 shot and it will be repaired, But even orc archers can kill an ent of the destroyer, if desired.

As for attempts to stop the production of orcs, this is impossible, since it takes ~ 5 shots to kill one orc builder, this is given that there are several builders and they are protected by orc archers or bounty hunters who kill an elf archer with 1 shot

[Savra]

Nothing is impossible, even though orcs upgrades are all piled up in the tc, that means they aren't producing units while researching out of that tc.

Orc archers also aren't exactly better then elven ones as a goblin archer starts at 5 range were a elf one starts at 6, the orc archer starts at 6 but at 3 turns, while elves base archer only costs 2. Troll headhunter costs 5 and which is roughly 3 elf archers, consider that elf players are producing archers in more then one area, that means a player still has plenty of units left to harass the enemy.

Troll head hunters also have 5 range btw.

Orc laborer's also are rather expensive compared to goblin ones and if a player removes them then that should hinder their production. Your objective here is to do enough damage to the enemy base so you have a chance to build up your own, your not exactly capturing the enemies base yet, unless the opportunity arises.

Also ent demolishers aren't any less useful because of this, it's not much different then a troll crusher as the crusher has better attack and aoe were the demolishers have better range.

As upgrades are concerned, ent demolishers at max upgrade get +6 attack, +4 armour, and supposedly +10 hp. Which is good enough to help in a fight. Elves can't be exactly like orcs in regards to siege, just like orcs can't be like elves.

With the right strategy, and knowledge of your units strengths and weaknesses, plus knowing what to get at the right time a player can win, even against a good playing orc player. You can't expect it to be easy either.

Also in terms of the constant comparisons, you can't expect any game with multiple factions to have the perfect balance as one race is always going to have something good that helps it better then other races. If you wanted perfect balance then your best bet is to play games that only have 1 race that everyone has to play, like AOS, were everyone has the same things.

[Anchar]

When technologies are in buildings, buildings do not produce soldiers either.

You don't have to write about a goblin archer, they are used very rarely, but if you compare an orc archer with an elven archer, then the situation is as follows: an orc archer, although 1 turn more expensive, kills an elven archer with 1 shot; An elven archer, although cheaper, must fire 4-5 shots at an orc before he dies, this is not effective in the long run.

The bounty hunters have 5 ranges, which is enough for them to defend the territory on which they are building. They cost 5 turns, but it's expensive, but they kill 3 archers per turn + have a speed of 4 + dodge their main threat - fire archers in my opinion they have a lot of useful functions.

Orc workers, although expensive, are effective in construction + they have a slave owner who, in my opinion, is a cheat fighter among the orcs.

Ents destroyers will not differ much from troll throwers when they have a speed of 3, walking on water and mountains, and have ~ 50 lives.

I didn't write you anything about the efficiency of Ents upgrades, I wrote about the number of Ents upgrades to destroyers relative to volcanic towers.

Yes, elves cannot be like orcs in terms of siege, but this does not mean that they should not have a chance to capture territories. At the moment, elves are stronger than orcs only in the range of archers, which is useless with their low damage, in addition, the elves have no alternatives in the form of stone throwers or spear throwers, since they need separate and long upgrades, and in themselves are quite secondary.

I want the kind of balance that people of elves and undead have now, I agree that there can be no perfect balance, but in orcs there is not even an approximate imperfect balance. You write that it is supposedly possible to win against the elves against the orcs, but to defeat the orcs against the elves you have to be a genius without the right to make mistakes, and on the orcs there must be an absolute noob who will try to kill the spearmen with the cavalry.

What you write is good only in theory, not in practice.

[makazuwr32]

You're comparing ents vs trolls in a spherical match in vacuum.

Ents more tough than trolls, that's a fact.
Ents burn not that good as trolls, that's a fact.
Trolls have better attack, power range and attack range, that's a fact.
Ents have carry capacity and can be used as towers, that's a fact.

But.
Ents and trolls have ABSOLUTELY COMPLETELY DIFFERENT roles. Why don't you compare troll to for example human imperial lancer? He also has cost 7. Or to warfell bellator? He has cost 6. Or to human destroyer ship with cost 7?

Both giant trolls have as main role assaulter role. First strike to deal most possible damage and clear path for weaker units.
Ent warrior has a walking wall/tower role. He protects tight spots, hides valuable units of your (awesome combo is with 2 druids inside ent because this way he becomes a tower of mass slowing — how would you kill ent when you just can't even come close to him with your giants?) and takes fire in place of your units.
Their roles are just too different.

For elves ent warrior is actually second best unit in the game, right after their druid. But replacing with troll-like assaulter unit will not make them better because they just do not have many units to support such assaulter unit.
Same goes to orcs: for them trolls are really exeptional units but ent-like slow tower is not required for them and sometimes can only make things worse (they have lots of giants to move aroung and such unit can only slow them in tight spots).

Ent demolishers later will get a bit more buffs via techs.
Also they should finally loose their carry capacity.

In general comparing orcs and elves is like comparing aos and aoww. Both have their own strategies how to play and what was useful in aos will not be that effective in aof or aoww (and same applies to other ao-games).
Orcs are based around raw power, crushing, smashing and rushing.
Elves are based around precision, cheap and effective en masse units, agility (dodges, speed, better accuracy), summons.

[Anchar]

The thing is, I was wrong. I meant Wood Elementals by Ents, and I forgot about these slow dinosaurs, real Ents.

[Savra]

Btw, wasn't it planned somewhere to give ent demolishers a tech that gives them creeping mold or something to their weapons so it does continues damage over time?

[DreJaDe]

LOL, I can help but compare Savras statement to people saying how communism can work greatly in theory but no where near what happens IRL.

There's almost no argument here that can enter this people as long they themselves don't notice the problems with the race balance. Like for example is the orc vs elves in which no matter where you look, it will heavily side the orc but their theory will always say that there's a slight chance which they hold onto that the elves would win.

Everyone could argue how elves is cheaper, the range, rate of production etc. But IRL games shows that orc win even if the theory states that elves would win.

Elves is harder to play than orcs? Elf strats is so straightforward really.

..
Oh yeah, just want to ask

Is elven building still 5 turns for most factory and 10 turns for a freaking manned tree?

[Savra]

It might be longer actually with this upcoming update, supposedly coming this week or so. (The construction rates will increase but things would be even[ish] in terms of stats for all buildings, so whatever you knew now is soon to be obsolete.)

But though orcs may seem like they win in reality through the use of brute strength every time as you 2 seem to try and point out, but the reality is is that they aren't impossible to beat. The way these orc suggestions are coming makes it seem as though you want everyone to be the same so matches would end up like matches in aos.

Eventually elves will get better units and still are waiting on the rest of there mounted units and 2 subs that could change this a little in their favor. I believe from what I've seen that elves will be getting eagle riders next because I saw the tech for it when I was browsing through the image files.

As it was mentioned before, orcs and humans are just about the most complete in terms of units being implemented, as orcs only have a few new ones coming in compared to other races who have many waiting to be implemented, however they were waiting on this balance update to get in.

To simplify, orcs have more of their stuff in which is why they are doing so well, while the other races still are waiting on content. Some minor things still need to be added to orcs however that will lessen the difficulty of fighting them like the orc pit which all orc warrior, cavalry, giants, etc. (Unit upgrades) would be transferred to, leaving the tc with only minor upgrades.

However if we really wanted to make orcs less powerful, we could always bring back miss chance for their ranged units again, but this would effect the undead as well. (However, this is least likely, as I've tried suggesting this plenty of times with no luck.)

The only alternative to this, would be to make trolls be locked behind a tech that unlocks trolls for the orcs much like other races siege units. But not as a full sub race, but similar to the ents, bone constructs, and siege techs of other races leaving them with only 1 siege unit to start with.

[DreJaDe]

It might be longer actually with this upcoming update, supposedly coming this week or so. (The construction rates will increase but things would be even[ish] in terms of stats for all buildings, so whatever you knew now is soon to be obsolete.)

But though orcs may seem like they win in reality through the use of brute strength every time as you 2 seem to try and point out, but the reality is is that they aren't impossible to beat. The way these orc suggestions are coming makes it seem as though you want everyone to be the same so matches would end up like matches in aos.

Eventually elves will get better units and still are waiting on the rest of there mounted units and 2 subs that could change this a little in their favor. I believe from what I've seen that elves will be getting eagle riders next because I saw the tech for it when I was browsing through the image files.

As it was mentioned before, orcs and humans are just about the most complete in terms of units being implemented, as orcs only have a few new ones coming in compared to other races who have many waiting to be implemented, however they were waiting on this balance update to get in.

To simplify, orcs have more of their stuff in which is why they are doing so well, while the other races still are waiting on content. Some minor things still need to be added to orcs however that will lessen the difficulty of fighting them like the orc pit which all orc warrior, cavalry, giants, etc. (Unit upgrades) would be transferred to, leaving the tc with only minor upgrades.

However if we really wanted to make orcs less powerful, we could always bring back miss chance for their ranged units again, but this would effect the undead as well. (However, this is least likely, as I've tried suggesting this plenty of times with no luck.)

The only alternative to this, would be to make trolls be locked behind a tech that unlocks trolls for the orcs much like other races siege units. But not as a full sub race, but similar to the ents, bone constructs, and siege techs of other races leaving them with only 1 siege unit to start with.

Yeah, still waiting for that change...

Uhhhmmm, yeah. They are not impossible to beat, I keep saying this but I could win most of my games with orc so saying it's impossible to win is not true. The problem is that with same skill players using orc and elves will make any orc win (same with human vs orc).

For the part where people are suggesting for the races to be equal. Sry, never seen one. Most orc changes tend to make Orc as equal or more powerful than their counterpart which is supposed to have the best for that unit. That's what I don't understand.

That aside, what I actually hate in this game is the hard counter this unit have against each other while orc enjoys the low counter that I like for other race to have. For example, elves are one hit creatures which is supposed to have the best dmg and range but with the updates from the past years, orc have been turning to be as equal or better which is wtf why.

Example Archer vs Archer for orcs and elves. Orc removes the imbalance by having big health over elf. Trying to skirmish with elf doesn't work if the orc Archer is close to each other, they would just kill the archer if it try to kill one. (Well, this is a theoretical part of the Archer vs archer)

Archer of elves have a higher range and lower cost than orc ones which should work but the overall orc imbalance remove this advantage. Counter argument will say the fire Archer for troll or some other counter. But, seriously does anybody really believe that?

Orc would easily destroy any fortification elves had which should protect the counter elf unit from being one shotted while orcs can easily tank damage and get full health from their healer. Elf healing is basically useless just like in AOW, it's either they die or dodge.

So many of this argument still exist but Im bored since there's nothing that will be done most likely.

Btw this statement came from a person who last played the game 2 months ago so beware.

[Savra]

Most of what you say is true, I've suggested myself for a range reduction or something to orcs ranged units. However if say for elves, they need some simple units that don't require new abilities to be put in. For example a glaive thrower that has 2 actions and works similarly to the axe throwers of other races. To me this might be useful for elves as it would make dealing with enemy throwers easier.

Deer mounts should make things somewhat more easier as well, since the deer mount towns watch would be 2 turns, making them the only race with 2 turn cavalry scouts.

Other then that, I hear they are reworking the minimum ranged damage as well and modifying elves melee units so that they can ignore armour or something like that. It would be interesting to give elves melee units a tech that gives them first strike.

As for the update, this coming one is supposed to be the balance update, last week it was said that this would come out in 2 weeks or something, so it might come out at the end of this, or the next, depending on how fast they redo all their units stats. (They have a lot to redo)

[DreJaDe]

That deer thing is kinda OP. Two turn scout cavalry?

Though, if the orc turtle they will eventually loose but seriously, that's like OP on a different sense.

Are they available at the start of the game, then if not, their almost close to useless (not completely though). LOL, this is like OP or nothing.

[Huttensohn]

The thing I'm still struggling most, is the orc towers. you just need to be ridiculously stronger (more factories, more tcs) to clear them. Sometimes having to sacrifice a 5 turn unit (Bladesinger) to destroy a tower that has been constructed in 2-3 turns, is just a bad tradeoff. Especially when the enemy has already upgraded the range and you haven't.

Fire by fire archers can be repaired to easily and when towers are near town centers, you don't even get a chance to kill off the workers. And even with the druid buff, they are within killing range of the tower without further upgrades.

Of course, at some time point you finally get you ent thrower, but at that point, it can be much, much, too late.

I think the easiest fix would be to just remove the orc peon. Do orcs really need a unit like that? I mean their slave is already a 2 turn builder that can construct, which is better than most other races get. I also don't see how orcs should be a race of great constructors.

[Huttensohn]

Maybe I'm completely stupid, but what are you talking about ents carrying other units? This is not possible in the current version, just tested it again to make sure.

So the main strength of ents has now been nerfed away?

and why is the druid the most important unit of elves? Compared to orc shaman, he really falls back a lot. His spells are minor buffs are nice, but compared to double strike, trample and strengthen, they all lose. If you want to use him as a healer, he is too expensive. (Okay, your wizard heals, too)

[DreJaDe]

The thing I'm still struggling most, is the orc towers. you just need to be ridiculously stronger (more factories, more tcs) to clear them. Sometimes having to sacrifice a 5 turn unit (Bladesinger) to destroy a tower that has been constructed in 2-3 turns, is just a bad tradeoff. Especially when the enemy has already upgraded the range and you haven't.

Fire by fire archers can be repaired to easily and when towers are near town centers, you don't even get a chance to kill off the workers. And even with the druid buff, they are within killing range of the tower without further upgrades.

Of course, at some time point you finally get you ent thrower, but at that point, it can be much, much, too late.

I think the easiest fix would be to just remove the orc peon. Do orcs really need a unit like that? I mean their slave is already a 2 turn builder that can construct, which is better than most other races get. I also don't see how orcs should be a race of great constructors.

Yeahh, I kinda agree

Orc tower though is actually nerfed already I think

If I'm not wrong, the Bladesinger has magic range upg though kinda pricy as pricy and would be useless as seige in the later update... Yeah, how to counter that? I don't see the rock thrower countering it with how fast orcs are building bld plus the armor buff of their priest.

Btw, Orcs in this game actually has a more advanced technology than humans so they having a better worker is understandable (LOL this reason is legit btw)

[DreJaDe]

Maybe I'm completely stupid, but what are you talking about ents carrying other units? This is not possible in the current version, just tested it again to make sure.

So the main strength of ents has now been nerfed away?

and why is the druid the most important unit of elves? Compared to orc shaman, he really falls back a lot. His spells are minor buffs are nice, but compared to double strike, trample and strengthen, they all lose. If you want to use him as a healer, he is too expensive. (Okay, your wizard heals, too)

Druid is actually part of the elf imbalance since with their tech tree. They could kill anything with their wolf. Plus the wolf then and so on. I think, this strat is still OP as elf since now have perfect dodge unlike the past counter ignores dodge.

[makazuwr32]

1. All races supposed to get a worker and laborer.
2. We actually decided to separate buildings and upscaling (because we do not have common view how they should work: stratego wants to keep all buildings' current cheapness, alex doesn't want any cost increase for buildings over time (we had one idea with this), and i want to make buildings more costly to balace them around siege).

2 turn scout cavalry will be a thing, yes. But its speed will be 5, not 6. They will be availible at the start (but mounting ability won't, like with unicorns). Ofc unlike unicorns deers won't give any bonus attack or other stats apart from +1 speed and +7 health for unit in current stats (i mean when compared to unmounted version).

I actually was able to win against orcs for all 3 races (humans, undeads, elves). It is rather hard but on medium sized maps possible.

Upscale update will make a slight difference between attack and health and because health has x4 upscale modifier while attack has x3 even elves will become more tough to kill (especially early game).

And last thing:
Even right now, in fight orc vs elves, elves have actually for early game advantage over orcs due to better speed and sight range.
Elven strategy is straight forward, you say? Well, you're wrong because it is not so straight forward actually.

_________________________________________

@Anchar
About thorn elemental:
This guy has one advantage over trolls: it deals FULL DAMAGE on counter. I again do not see this unit as assaulter but as tanking unit for tight spots. Well it can be used for attacking but not as main power.

[makazuwr32]

Maybe I'm completely stupid, but what are you talking about ents carrying other units? This is not possible in the current version, just tested it again to make sure.

So the main strength of ents has now been nerfed away?

and why is the druid the most important unit of elves? Compared to orc shaman, he really falls back a lot. His spells are minor buffs are nice, but compared to double strike, trample and strengthen, they all lose. If you want to use him as a healer, he is too expensive. (Okay, your wizard heals, too)

First. Ent warriors only.
Second. Not at base but via treetop archery techs.

About druid: he has 4 most important for elves specifically (do not compare him to other casters because ofc there are a lot of casters who are better than him) spells — slowing (awesome when inside ent warrior in the middle of fight), healing, clear vision (for even higher range, only race that has spell for higher attack range for shooters), summon wolf.

[makazuwr32]

The thing I'm still struggling most, is the orc towers. you just need to be ridiculously stronger (more factories, more tcs) to clear them. Sometimes having to sacrifice a 5 turn unit (Bladesinger) to destroy a tower that has been constructed in 2-3 turns, is just a bad tradeoff. Especially when the enemy has already upgraded the range and you haven't.

Fire by fire archers can be repaired to easily and when towers are near town centers, you don't even get a chance to kill off the workers. And even with the druid buff, they are within killing range of the tower without further upgrades.

Of course, at some time point you finally get you ent thrower, but at that point, it can be much, much, too late.

I think the easiest fix would be to just remove the orc peon. Do orcs really need a unit like that? I mean their slave is already a 2 turn builder that can construct, which is better than most other races get. I also don't see how orcs should be a race of great constructors.

Yeahh, I kinda agree

Orc tower though is actually nerfed already I think

If I'm not wrong, the Bladesinger has magic range upg though kinda pricy as pricy and would be useless as seige in the later update... Yeah, how to counter that? I don't see the rock thrower countering it with how fast orcs are building bld plus the armor buff of their priest.

Btw, Orcs in this game actually has a more advanced technology than humans so they having a better worker is understandable (LOL this reason is legit btw)

Magic missle will loose its anti-building properties when we will work on new abilities planned eons ago. This won't be in this or in next 2-3 updates for sure alas.
After upscaling we will work on buildings (separately) and after on categories+bonuses update. After that we maybe will work on magic or will take a break and work on few new units or some slight balances.

Blade singer will get earth and wind (i think based) attacking abilities and earth will have bonuses against buildings.