Scandinavian forces are OP

[Vladneral]

For take a win against any strategy in land battles you need nothing - just scandinavian forces.

1) Northern axethrower having two sub and with such many buffs too powerful for his cost (3turn): 26 hp 14 attack that avoid armor of every unit and have 50% bonus against almost every add to this possibility of 2 poison and then it stand 27 damage.

2) Swordstaff that have good bonuses against cavalry and light/medium infantry so after getting ,,long spears,, tech and with some buffs he can one shoot full hp antiinfantry unit - elite celtic warrior from counter attack! Before he make damage! Add to this great amount of hp and good armor.

3) With wagon use scandinavian forces can have much better mobility than antiinfantry cavalry that could deal with them on open field(without wagon) but scandinavian active range will be: 6+5+(range attack) that without roads.

4) Remind you that scandinavian forces have also one of the best antibuilding bonuses so they could crush defence without additional help in early or medium game or just use cheap petard man with berserker or invest just a bit in landsknechts and any defence will fall.

5) All scandinavian forces with bard buff and healer aura have 100% and more mental resistance if you place your units right you are invincible against mental attacks.

So for this strategy you dont need cavalry and archer researches - all units(that you need) are improving from milee damage techs and infantry armor. So you save many production.
And prepared against everything also. ( watch above)
Or below in short:
Cavalry < swordstaff+wagon
Range units < northern axethrower
Mental units < bard and healer aura
Infantry (light and medium) < swordstaff + northern axethrower
Elephants and heavy infantry < berserker
Ballista and other siege < another axethrower

I cant see anything what could counter this strategy with atleast the same price. Or only just use the same strategy and take a win because of tactics decitions - but why we need other units then ?

[godOfKings]

Use slav herbalist poisons and winged hussars

[Vladneral]

Use slav herbalist poisons and winged hussars

That wont work at all. Because of swordstaff - he cheaper and could be recruit everythere like winged hussar. With bard support and wagon use you just cant move even close enough.
And dont forget about northern axe throwers - they have 50% bonus against winged hussar also.

[godOfKings]

Poison enemy berserkers with winged hussar and poison archer while slaughter the rest with heavy armored units like shielders, foot knights, heavy cavalry, shield knight etc. as u said, only maceman and berserker is effective counter against heavy units, so nord has lower number of heavy counters than other counters, especially if they spam swordstaff and northern axe thrower

[b2198]

Copying from the Discord discussion:

I agree that some of those points are probably indeed too strong currently and might require a nerf.

1) I agree. I thought removing double/triple action from them would've been a slight overnerf, but turns out I was wrong, they're still too strong from being both [Nordic] and [Slavic]. The damage is lessened against high hp [Heavy Armored] or [Elephant] units, though, so they do have counters, but still, the amount of stats they get from herbalist + bard is just too much for their cost.

2) Yeah, in my post about lancer being the best anti-mounted unit in the game atm, I left out a big detail, since the calculations I had done were done before it: the buffers rework, that made svardstaviers WAAY more powerful than any other anti-mounted unit in the game by a margin so large I don't even need a spreadsheet to reach a conclusion on that. They have a good amount of hp, high armor/p.armor, stupidly high amounts of damage vs mounted units, and also against light infantry, and with bards (and wagons, but I'll get there later) they are basically a very strong "unmounted cavalry".

3) Yeah, I've been noticing in the past months that posthouse wasn't nearly enough to compensate for wagon + supports in terms of infantry vs cavalry mobility, and that is a problem big enough for a topic on its own. Probably a better idea to continue the discussion on the forums for this one.

4) Yup, fully upgraded ballistas getting outranged by infantry armies and reinforced siege towers getting obliterated by ~2 units at 11 range throws any sort of siege play out of the window. This one is most likely a problem of point 3 imo.

5) I don't think that one is a problem though, it's one of their characteristics to be hard to convert, the problem is when their actual weaknesses stop being weaknesses.

[b2198]

Poison enemy berserkers with winged hussar and poison archer while slaughter the rest with heavy armored units like shielders, foot knights, heavy cavalry, shield knight etc. as u said, only maceman and berserker is effective counter against heavy units, so nord has lower number of heavy counters than other counters, especially if they spam swordstaff and northern axe thrower

I have tried those. Hussars can't even get close to do that effectively due to 11 range svardstavier missiles. And even if they could, northern axe throwers are untouchable by heavy infantry or shield knights due to slowing poison, and can kill them in 2 hits.

Also poison does almost nothing to stop a zerk if it has herb protection. And surprisingly the zerks weren't even the main problem. The problem in the match was primarily the northern axe throwers + svardstaviers.

[Endru1241]

1. It may be so.
But I have no idea how to effectively nerf possibility to buff it without messing with either Nordic, nor Slavic cultures.
Ideas please.
At best without nerfing it's basic capability.

2. Swordstaffier doesn't one-shot Celtic Warrior on counter.
Full tech one with bard buffs has 14 attack and bonuses doesn't apply due to Celtic Warrior "Prevent bonus damage on counter".
So it deals 9 damage vs full tech.
If we count High Morale and Fervor - 16 attack, but to be fair - giving the same to Celt finalises at 10.
Even without War Paint - it's not enough to one-shot.
Said good armor and hp still doesn't save it from getting damage from archers, so there is high possibility this unit out of wagon/tower is just shredded by arrows.

3. That could be said for many others.
It's not a problem of Nordic culture, but wagon.
Or wagon vs cavalry.
I plan to change wagon carry cap to 2 upgradeable to 3 or maybe even to 1, upgradable to 2, but that wouldn't change much.
Wagon allows for tremendous movement boosts (especially with chain of wagons in buildings 5 tiles apart).
I don't have any ideas what to do about it with current engine limitations though.
Aura immediately decreasing move points of units inside (by e.g. 1) would change much, but it cannot be set to affect only units inside, so that would create many problems.

4. Buildings are not their weakness - that's for sure.
But they don't have any outstanding effectiveness against them to be worth especially mentioning as imbalance.

5. Even regular 0% resistance unit get to 100% or more with Promote Loyalty and Fervor.
Multiple Priests or Senators can still convert though.

In general Nordic culture is supposed to have versatile infantry, very lacking cavalry, lacking for cost archers.
Like many other cultures it should be a little more resistant to conversion, than core units.
It should be countered by cavalry and archers (mainly outranged/outmanouvered).
Slightly on worse side against heavy infantry, because of lacking cavalry, but still capable to deal with it.
Please try to propose balance changes in accordance with this general idea.

[b2198]

1. It may be so.
But I have no idea how to effectively nerf possibility to buff it without messing with either Nordic, nor Slavic cultures.
Ideas please.
At best without nerfing it's basic capability.

I still think they could be categorized as either [Slavic] or [Nordic] instead of both.

2. Swordstaffier doesn't one-shot Celtic Warrior on counter.
Full tech one with bard buffs has 14 attack and bonuses doesn't apply due to Celtic Warrior "Prevent bonus damage on counter".
So it deals 9 damage vs full tech.
If we count High Morale and Fervor - 16 attack, but to be fair - giving the same to Celt finalises at 10.
Even without War Paint - it's not enough to one-shot.
Said good armor and hp still doesn't save it from getting damage from archers, so there is high possibility this unit out of wagon/tower is just shredded by arrows.

I think by one-shot he meant with both celtic warrior's attacks. That makes celtic warrior, who is a specialized anti-infantry, near useless against them if they have reach.

3. That could be said for many others.
It's not a problem of Nordic culture, but wagon.
Or wagon vs cavalry.

Yeah, those are also my thoughts.

I plan to change wagon carry cap to 2 upgradeable to 3 or maybe even to 1, upgradable to 2, but that wouldn't change much.
Wagon allows for tremendous movement boosts (especially with chain of wagons in buildings 5 tiles apart).
I don't have any ideas what to do about it with current engine limitations though.
Aura immediately decreasing move points of units inside (by e.g. 1) would change much, but it cannot be set to affect only units inside, so that would create many problems.

I'm also not sure what could be done here without engine changes. Maybe an aura that applies at the end of each turn that gives a 1 turn debuff for movement or actions (or both)? That way they wouldn't apply the debuff right after being trained in a TC, for example, so would reduce the amount of problems introduced by that.

4. Buildings are not their weakness - that's for sure.
But they don't have any outstanding effectiveness against them to be worth especially mentioning as imbalance.

The problem is that they don't have any clear weakness. Buildings? For sure not. Cavalry? Svardstaviers melt through them very easily, not to mention that buffed zerks can kill any cavalry but buffed winged hussars. Light/Medium/Irregular Infantry? Northern axe throwers, zerks and raider/viking archers make short work of them. Heavy infantry? Zerks delete them from existence without sweating. Conversion? Clearly not. Ships? Axe throwers and raider/viking archers are very good against them (and that wouldn't do much for maps with not much water). Siege machines? Also melted by most of their units. Archers? Zerks are basically immune to arrows, and northern axe throwers one-shot them from a bigger range even without wagons considered.

5. Even regular 0% resistance unit get to 100% or more with Promote Loyalty and Fervor.
Multiple Priests or Senators can still convert though.

Yeah, I also don't think they're unbalanced on that side.

In general Nordic culture is supposed to have versatile infantry, very lacking cavalry, lacking for cost archers.
Like many other cultures it should be a little more resistant to conversion, than core units.
It should be countered by cavalry and archers (mainly outranged/outmanouvered).
Slightly on worse side against heavy infantry, because of lacking cavalry, but still capable to deal with it.
Please try to propose balance changes in accordance with this general idea.

I think they could be made weaker against archers, for sure, by decreasing some of the p. armors (especially zerk's), and cavalry, by nerfing voulgier/svardstavier significantly and removing zerk's bonus vs heavy cavalry. Maybe even reduce speed from adventure song from +2 to +1 along with the wagons changes, so that they can actually be outranged/outmanouvered?

[Endru1241]

1. It may be so.
But I have no idea how to effectively nerf possibility to buff it without messing with either Nordic, nor Slavic cultures.
Ideas please.
At best without nerfing it's basic capability.

I still think they could be categorized as either [Slavic] or [Nordic] instead of both.

That would take 1 unit from either Slavic or Nordic cultures.

2. Swordstaffier doesn't one-shot Celtic Warrior on counter.
Full tech one with bard buffs has 14 attack and bonuses doesn't apply due to Celtic Warrior "Prevent bonus damage on counter".
So it deals 9 damage vs full tech.
If we count High Morale and Fervor - 16 attack, but to be fair - giving the same to Celt finalises at 10.
Even without War Paint - it's not enough to one-shot.
Said good armor and hp still doesn't save it from getting damage from archers, so there is high possibility this unit out of wagon/tower is just shredded by arrows.

I think by one-shot he meant with both celtic warrior's attacks. That makes celtic warrior, who is a specialized anti-infantry, near useless against them if they have reach.

I can read:

he can one shoot full hp antiinfantry unit - elite celtic warrior from counter attack! Before he make damage!

I plan to change wagon carry cap to 2 upgradeable to 3 or maybe even to 1, upgradable to 2, but that wouldn't change much.
Wagon allows for tremendous movement boosts (especially with chain of wagons in buildings 5 tiles apart).
I don't have any ideas what to do about it with current engine limitations though.
Aura immediately decreasing move points of units inside (by e.g. 1) would change much, but it cannot be set to affect only units inside, so that would create many problems.

I'm also not sure what could be done here without engine changes. Maybe an aura that applies at the end of each turn that gives a 1 turn debuff for movement or actions (or both)? That way they wouldn't apply the debuff right after being trained in a TC, for example, so would reduce the amount of problems introduced by that.

The problem though is aura being applied on all units in the same building.

4. Buildings are not their weakness - that's for sure.
But they don't have any outstanding effectiveness against them to be worth especially mentioning as imbalance.

The problem is that they don't have any clear weakness. Buildings? For sure not. Cavalry? Svardstaviers melt through them very easily, not to mention that buffed zerks can kill any cavalry but buffed winged hussars. Light/Medium/Irregular Infantry? Northern axe throwers, zerks and raider/viking archers make short work of them. Heavy infantry? Zerks delete them from existence without sweating. Conversion? Clearly not. Ships? Axe throwers and raider/viking archers are very good against them (and that wouldn't do much for maps with not much water). Siege machines? Also melted by most of their units. Archers? Zerks are basically immune to arrows, and northern axe throwers one-shot them from a bigger range even without wagons considered.

No culture should have any clear weakness, that is impossible (or very hard) to overcome.
Just things they are less cost effective to defend against.
Swordstaffier is 4 turn unit.
It's expected, that 4 turn counter unit should be capable to deal with units, they counter.
If anything - it's another problem of mines making differences in cost mean much less.

And how does Norther Axe Thrower unit with 4 range ever attacks archers with 7-9 range from greater range?
Berserkers are only resistant towards attacks in berserk state, besides - their slight nerf is already on.

In general Nordic culture is supposed to have versatile infantry, very lacking cavalry, lacking for cost archers.
Like many other cultures it should be a little more resistant to conversion, than core units.
It should be countered by cavalry and archers (mainly outranged/outmanouvered).
Slightly on worse side against heavy infantry, because of lacking cavalry, but still capable to deal with it.
Please try to propose balance changes in accordance with this general idea.

I think they could be made weaker against archers, for sure, by decreasing some of the p. armors (especially zerk's), and cavalry, by nerfing voulgier/svardstavier significantly and removing zerk's bonus vs heavy cavalry. Maybe even reduce speed from adventure song from +2 to +1 along with the wagons changes, so that they can actually be outranged/outmanouvered?

Vouglier along with it's upgrade was not much weaker not so long ago and was deemed useless.
It is purely wrong to propose to nerf them significantly.
Imho - it's wrong for most units, as overnerfing is very easy (just like overbuffing).
Even with mild attitude towards balance changes it's not very rare occurrence to get it wrong in some way, but with harsher - it would be chaos.
If player cannot outmanouver 3 speed unit, needing buffer to get to 5 with e.g. horse archer with 5 speed and 7 range, then the state of the game must be really wrong.

But seriously - maybe it's just posthouse bonus being too weak?
Maybe +3 speed should be changed to +2 for 1 move along with +1 for 2-3 turns?

[DreJaDe]

I kinda like that idea of lasting effects for cavs

[makazuwr32]

Idea for wagons:
2 forms — in moving form units can't enter/exit it, in halt form units can enter/exit it but has much smaller speed (1-3). We have spec action that may allow this.
In first form if wagon dies all units inside also automatically die as well.

[godOfKings]

Moving form could probably also have pic of pulling horse while halt form has an entrance and stairs, but then again wagon dont even need to atk so its action is usually unused

Btw wagon costs as much as a fortress, so its still a point of concern how much nerfing wagon will affect being able to destroy tower spams in early game

[Endru1241]

Idea for wagons:
2 forms — in moving form units can't enter/exit it, in halt form units can enter/exit it but has much smaller speed (1-3). We have spec action that may allow this.
In first form if wagon dies all units inside also automatically die as well.

Submarine style.

Not sure.

Personally for blocking unloading I'd rather add active skill with +speed and granting spec CAN_NOT_LOAD_UNLOAD.
I don't think there is enough reason for making transformation (units die on carrier death could probably also be granted with effect).

Moving form could probably also have pic of pulling horse while halt form has an entrance and stairs, but then again wagon dont even need to atk so its action is usually unused

Btw wagon costs as much as a fortress, so its still a point of concern how much nerfing wagon will affect being able to destroy tower spams in early game

For early towers - probably not much difference, but I'd have to introduce planned wagon upgrade for additional hp to have any possibility to deal with late game ones.

[b2198]

I still think they could be categorized as either [Slavic] or [Nordic] instead of both.

That would take 1 unit from either Slavic or Nordic cultures.

Since nords already have a wide range of units, including another axe thrower, I think they could be slavs-only without much of an issue.

I'm also not sure what could be done here without engine changes. Maybe an aura that applies at the end of each turn that gives a 1 turn debuff for movement or actions (or both)? That way they wouldn't apply the debuff right after being trained in a TC, for example, so would reduce the amount of problems introduced by that.

The problem though is aura being applied on all units in the same building.

Yeah, that's still bad, but would be lessened if it happens only at the end of a turn, though I don't think it's worth doing because it would be really unintuitive to have it work that way.

Swordstaffier is 4 turn unit.
It's expected, that 4 turn counter unit should be capable to deal with units, they counter.
If anything - it's another problem of mines making differences in cost mean much less.

The problem imo is that they are way more capable than other units that are anti-mounted, even with cost considered (take lancers, for example) and ALONGSIDE that are also very good at destroying light infantry and dealing with medium infantry.

And how does Norther Axe Thrower unit with 4 range ever attacks archers with 7-9 range from greater range?

If archer gets to 9 range from one of them (and no archer can one-shot them), they will be able to move 5 tiles and attack at 4 range, instakilling the archer.

Vouglier along with it's upgrade was not much weaker not so long ago and was deemed useless.

That was before the buffer rework, they are now way ahead of other anti-mounted units because bard buffs are the strongest one for melee attacks, even with part of the anti-mounted damage moved to the weapon effect. The thing before was that the cavalry they counter were also heavily buffed, so that reduced their relative value way more due to taking multiple counterattacks.

It is purely wrong to propose to nerf them significantly.
Imho - it's wrong for most units, as overnerfing is very easy (just like overbuffing).
Even with mild attitude towards balance changes it's not very rare occurrence to get it wrong in some way, but with harsher - it would be chaos.

Yeah, I understand that position, and you're probably right there.

If player cannot outmanouver 3 speed unit, needing buffer to get to 5 with e.g. horse archer with 5 speed and 7 range, then the state of the game must be really wrong.

But seriously - maybe it's just posthouse bonus being too weak?
Maybe +3 speed should be changed to +2 for 1 move along with +1 for 2-3 turns?

I think the actual issue is not that cavalry is not fast enough, but that infantry is too fast, so they can start an attack from outside ranged units' and buildings' range. Imo that is primarily due to wagons having 5/6 speed and because there's no good way currently to prevent double (or multiple) moves by combining wagon (or wagons) and unit speed.

[b2198]

Idea for wagons:
2 forms — in moving form units can't enter/exit it, in halt form units can enter/exit it but has much smaller speed (1-3). We have spec action that may allow this.
In first form if wagon dies all units inside also automatically die as well.

Submarine style.

Not sure.

Personally for blocking unloading I'd rather add active skill with +speed and granting spec CAN_NOT_LOAD_UNLOAD.
I don't think there is enough reason for making transformation (units die on carrier death could probably also be granted with effect).

Wait, it can be done that way? Seems pretty reasonable for me.

Moving form could probably also have pic of pulling horse while halt form has an entrance and stairs, but then again wagon dont even need to atk so its action is usually unused

Btw wagon costs as much as a fortress, so its still a point of concern how much nerfing wagon will affect being able to destroy tower spams in early game

For early towers - probably not much difference, but I'd have to introduce planned wagon upgrade for additional hp to have any possibility to deal with late game ones.

Something else that I think of is that as far as I remember nothing but ruined fortresses and fire archers have bonuses against them, because they are [Machine]s, but not (and I don't think they should be) [Siege Machine]s, so maybe also adding a bonus for some melee units against them could help make them not as consistently good.

Also from my playing in the recent months, tower spam was reduced considerably, and is way easier to deal with, especially due to advanced siege logistics + rams and the petardier bugfix/buff. Also 11 range trebuchets makes towers way more fragile in the late game. In early game you can also deal with them with regular unupgraded rams, petardiers, shielders, axe throwers, siege towers, mantlets, etc., so I don't think the wagon changes would make it much harder to do.

[makazuwr32]

My point is to suggest idea, your point is to comprehend and implement or remake it.

[Endru1241]

My point is to suggest idea, your point is to comprehend and implement or remake it.

Well - it's a good idea, I think.

Wait, it can be done that way? Seems pretty reasonable for me.

Wagon speed set as 3.
Ability (probably normally using action, as it doesn't matter for wagons) giving +2 speed and cannot load/unload.

Something else that I think of is that as far as I remember nothing but ruined fortresses and fire archers have bonuses against them, because they are [Machine]s, but not (and I don't think they should be) [Siege Machine]s, so maybe also adding a bonus for some melee units against them could help make them not as consistently good.

Also from my playing in the recent months, tower spam was reduced considerably, and is way easier to deal with, especially due to advanced siege logistics + rams and the petardier bugfix/buff. Also 11 range trebuchets makes towers way more fragile in the late game. In early game you can also deal with them with regular unupgraded rams, petardiers, shielders, axe throwers, siege towers, mantlets, etc., so I don't think the wagon changes would make it much harder to do.

Coupled with discussed change to carry cap 2 and adding upgrade having more hp and carry cap back to 3 it should be safe to add % bonus damage vs machines to many units. For melee I think of 2/3 of damage dealt to siege machines/buildings or structures (whatever is lowest for a unit), so no bonus for axe throwers and smilar (or symbolic 5% just to get AI to more likely target wagons) and +50% to all anti-building melee with full swordsman bonuses.
If siege machines also got any bonus (even symbolic to get rid of miss chance) it would significantly reduce wagon starting performance.
End-game wagon would still have 4 speed and 3 carry cap, 35 hp, but that would not guarantee any exceptional survivability due to bonuses.
But increased p.armor (0/5-6 maybe) along with hp and melee bonuses would at least make it a target for melee forces.

Swordstaffier is 4 turn unit.
It's expected, that 4 turn counter unit should be capable to deal with units, they counter.
If anything - it's another problem of mines making differences in cost mean much less.

The problem imo is that they are way more capable than other units that are anti-mounted, even with cost considered (take lancers, for example) and ALONGSIDE that are also very good at destroying light infantry and dealing with medium infantry.

Vouglier along with it's upgrade was not much weaker not so long ago and was deemed useless.

That was before the buffer rework, they are now way ahead of other anti-mounted units because bard buffs are the strongest one for melee attacks, even with part of the anti-mounted damage moved to the weapon effect. The thing before was that the cavalry they counter were also heavily buffed, so that reduced their relative value way more due to taking multiple counterattacks.

It is purely wrong to propose to nerf them significantly.
Imho - it's wrong for most units, as overnerfing is very easy (just like overbuffing).
Even with mild attitude towards balance changes it's not very rare occurrence to get it wrong in some way, but with harsher - it would be chaos.

Yeah, I understand that position, and you're probably right there.

There are some changes to general anti-mounted (removing effect damage and giving +x bonus damage instead), which would probably make all foot anti-infantry stronger again (main attack damage is dealt completely before enemy attack with reach).
Vouglier would benefit least from it, having damage split between two attacks.
So I wonder if any balancing changes shouldn't just wait for after this one.

I still think they could be categorized as either [Slavic] or [Nordic] instead of both.

That would take 1 unit from either Slavic or Nordic cultures.

Since nords already have a wide range of units, including another axe thrower, I think they could be slavs-only without much of an issue.

And how does Norther Axe Thrower unit with 4 range ever attacks archers with 7-9 range from greater range?

If archer gets to 9 range from one of them (and no archer can one-shot them), they will be able to move 5 tiles and attack at 4 range, instakilling the archer.

I wonder if making some more buffs remove each other wouldn't suffice.
Poison/Songs (except Hero Song) removing each other.
Plus some general nerf to Northern Axe Thrower.

[godOfKings]

So let me guess, now in order to ambush, first send the 5 speed wagon filled with units near enemy target, then transform to 3 speed wagon while the units can also leave the wagon to reach the enemy?

[Endru1241]

So let me guess, now in order to ambush, first send the 5 speed wagon filled with units near enemy target, then transform to 3 speed wagon while the units can also leave the wagon to reach the enemy?

Specifically - wagon would have 3 speed all along, but if you use it's ability to boost sped by +2 units cannot go into it or out of it for this turn.
If it would work like intended.
Kind of like elephant run - use ability to loose it's action. Travelling mode.

So yeah - for ambush you'd have to skip using ability, but it could be used to evacuate units with full speed.
Load units, use ability, move.

To not mess up AI, I am thinking of leaving old wagon as map unit.

[b2198]

Wagon speed set as 3.
Ability (probably normally using action, as it doesn't matter for wagons) giving +2 speed and cannot load/unload.

Nice

Something else that I think of is that as far as I remember nothing but ruined fortresses and fire archers have bonuses against them, because they are [Machine]s, but not (and I don't think they should be) [Siege Machine]s, so maybe also adding a bonus for some melee units against them could help make them not as consistently good.

Coupled with discussed change to carry cap 2 and adding upgrade having more hp and carry cap back to 3 it should be safe to add % bonus damage vs machines to many units. For melee I think of 2/3 of damage dealt to siege machines/buildings or structures (whatever is lowest for a unit), so no bonus for axe throwers and smilar (or symbolic 5% just to get AI to more likely target wagons) and +50% to all anti-building melee with full swordsman bonuses.
If siege machines also got any bonus (even symbolic to get rid of miss chance) it would significantly reduce wagon starting performance.
End-game wagon would still have 4 speed and 3 carry cap, 35 hp, but that would not guarantee any exceptional survivability due to bonuses.
But increased p.armor (0/5-6 maybe) along with hp and melee bonuses would at least make it a target for melee forces.

Yeah, that seems reasonable. The opponent would have to react more actively if they want to destroy them, but would also not be in as much trouble for failing to do so.

There are some changes to general anti-mounted (removing effect damage and giving +x bonus damage instead), which would probably make all foot anti-infantry stronger again (main attack damage is dealt completely before enemy attack with reach).
Vouglier would benefit least from it, having damage split between two attacks.
So I wonder if any balancing changes shouldn't just wait for after this one.

Also seems reasonable for me, since they'll at least have less mobilty due to the wagon changes in the meantime, and so wouldn't be as greatly effective as a long-effective-range anti-mounted unit.

I wonder if making some more buffs remove each other wouldn't suffice.
Poison/Songs (except Hero Song) removing each other.
Plus some general nerf to Northern Axe Thrower.

Hm, that might be a better option indeed, making the player have to choose which effect they want at the time, instead of choosing all possible ones everytime. Maybe they won't even need that general nerf depending on the specific rules for those removals.

[Endru1241]

Wagon changes are in game and seems to work flawlessly.

Additionally:
Northern Axe Thrower damage bonuses changed. General vs [Flesh and Blood] one is removed, but added instead: +5% +2 vs [Raged][Foot], except [Heavy Armored], +20% +2 vs [Melee][Foot], except [Heavy Armored], +25% +2 vs [Mounted], except [Misc], [Heavy Armored], [Elephant].

Battle Song removes poison weapon effects. Poison weapon and Slowing Poison Weapon removes Battle Song.

[b2198]

Wagon changes are in game and seems to work flawlessly.

Additionally:
Northern Axe Thrower damage bonuses changed. General vs [Flesh and Blood] one is removed, but added instead: +5% +2 vs [Raged][Foot], except [Heavy Armored], +20% +2 vs [Melee][Foot], except [Heavy Armored], +25% +2 vs [Mounted], except [Misc], [Heavy Armored], [Elephant].

Battle Song removes poison weapon effects. Poison weapon and Slowing Poison Weapon removes Battle Song.

Very nice

Also... do we need to calm our units down to make them take less damage from northern axe throwers now?

+5% +2 vs [Raged][Foot]

[makazuwr32]

+5% +2 vs [Raged][Foot]

Berserkers?

[b2198]

+5% +2 vs [Raged][Foot]

Berserkers?

I'm pretty sure he meant [Ranged]. Afaik no units are categorized as "[Raged]", not even zerks.

[Endru1241]

Raged category under berserk could be a thing if we had dynamic categories.
Unfortunately it was only mistype.

[b2198]

Reviving this topic because I think there are 3 points that remain too strong in [Nordic] units (and are what I think makes them by far the strongest faction in the game currently):

1. And probably the most important one: bards give too much speed to infantry units. With a bard, any of their infantry moves at the speed of most cavalry, which heavily reduces what I think is the main weakness of infantry units, that being mobility. They basically have cavalry that's weak against most cavalry but very strong against almost anything else, because the way to counter most [Nordic] units is supposedly to use archers, but when you're dealing with cavalry-speed infantry, archers will just get slaughtered by the same infantry they are meant to counter most of the time.
2. Axe throwers have too much effective range: this is also affected by the first point, but even if bard speed buff were to be nerfed to 1 instead of 2, they would still have 8 effective range, which is the same range as almost all archers in the game. This not only makes dealing with them very hard, for the following reasons:
   1. most of the time it's not efficient to use most archers against them (because them and most archers both kill each other in 2 turns)
   2. heavy infantry can't reach them while they are kiting back (and most can't even tank their damage)
   3. heavy cavalry is also inefficient due to you certainly losing it afterwards to voulgiers/svardstaviers (which is the next point)(and also due to axe throwers being [Light Infantry], so they don't take nearly as much damage from heavy cavalry), and losing a 4+ cost unit to kill a 2 cost unit is not really a good idea
   4. light cavalry follows the same pattern above, except you don't even need the voulgiers/svardstaviers to be there to lose them afterwards
   5. siege being exactly one of the things they counter, deleting ballistae left and right and efficiently destroying mantlets and siege towers that might be hiding archers against them, along with...
   6. structures, which means you can't even really stop their advance with workers
   but also makes them VERY strong to spam, since as melee units that can deal melee damage from a moderate range, you can use a lot more units to attack the same thing at once (because you're not limited to its 4 adjacent squares), and the amount of damage they can deal (up to 14 without auras, and 16 with them) melts the vast majority of units in the game when used like that.
3. Voulgier and especially svardstavier still deal way too much damage, not only against all mounted units, of which they're the strongest counter in the entire game, but also against [Light Infantry][Melee] units, one of which being elite celtic warrior, which is supposed to be a specialized anti-infantry unit, and yet it gets one-shot from svardstavier's counterattack when they get the reach tech before even being able to do any damage if they don't have armor techs yet, and still almost do that even when they do, while taking negligible damage from them, and overall being the tankiest anti-mounted infantry in the game (and Elite Hospitaller doesn't really compare, because they're [Heavy Infantry], which means that despite their higher armor, most cavalry actually deal around the same or even more damage to them, and they still have less hp, mobility, and damage)

My suggestions for those points are these:

1. Reduce bard adventure song speed increase from 2 to 1. This would reduce their mobility to the same as slow cavalry, neutral infantry buffed by a drummer, or naturally fast infantry, which I think would make dealing with their offensives significantly more doable (although there still remains the wagon issue, but it's lessened earlier on now, and it's not specific to them).
2. Reduce axe thrower and elite axe thrower base ranges from 3 to 2. If NOT applying the bard nerf, also reduce their damage from 6/8 to 5/6. This would make archers able to deal with them in a more efficient way, while still leaving northern axe thrower as a higher-range (and in most cases higher-damage too) option for a 50% higher cost than them (3 instead of 2), and also making it a bit easier for melee units to not get overwhelmed by their spam.
3. I don't have time right now to check all the number changes on them, and I'll probably do some proper calculations when I have time, to give more specific number suggestions, but the general idea is: either reduce a lot of the base and bonus damage voulgier and svardstavier have, or reduce them not by a lot and also make them considerably less tanky.

[SirPat]

(1.)Bard needs a nerf on the adventure song definitely. Changing it to 1 is ok, but i think these vikings really shouldnt get any form of movement enhancements.

In most games Bards play music to calm down the adventurer/knight. The effects it has on characters vary from regaining charisma or healing the adventurers mental and body. Id say make the bard a less "battle steroid giver" and make him into an aura unit that gives either increased healing, just by a bit which represents the bard keeping spirits up while the healers patch up the units, and the second auro would be increased mental resistance, representing the "positivity" "focus" that being happy(cause of music) does

These auras are switched using abilities so that he can only use one at a time and since it affects multiple units, making the auras weak is a must


(2.) The Nords we have rn are the Nords at their prime. We have to show their weaker starts. Just like the romans, it would be better if all of these more advance & "heavy" units would be locked behind a technology. It all starts from the Viking(the 2turn troop) hes just like a slightly better swordsman, this is what the whole nord early game should look like, Vikings anddddd basic archers. Cause this is what they really were composed off early on in their history. Not the unkillable axe loving gigachads. Lock everything else behind technologies.


(3.) Not about balance just fun stuff, let vikings(the 2turn unit) to make viking ships. Underused cause you would need a dock, but once u have one you could just make better ships so instead make it a ship that can be made early and maybe has upgrades to turn to viming longboat with more unit capacity


(4.) Axe throwing started as a sport, early vikings went on raids cause they need food for the winter, it wouldnt make sense if they would throw a perfectly good axe just to kill one guy or two(if picked up again), so lock it behind tech(same tech suggestion to limit heavy nordic units in early game). And yes make a new "default" axe thrower

[b2198]

(1.)Bard needs a nerf on the adventure song definitely. Changing it to 1 is ok, but i think these vikings really shouldnt get any form of movement enhancements.

In most games Bards play music to calm down the adventurer/knight. The effects it has on characters vary from regaining charisma or healing the adventurers mental and body. Id say make the bard a less "battle steroid giver" and make him into an aura unit that gives either increased healing, just by a bit which represents the bard keeping spirits up while the healers patch up the units, and the second auro would be increased mental resistance, representing the "positivity" "focus" that being happy(cause of music) does

These auras are switched using abilities so that he can only use one at a time and since it affects multiple units, making the auras weak is a must

That's an interesting idea, but changing them into a completely different unit might be too much, at least for now, as that would be an even bigger change, and a lot more people would hate that, not to mention that it would be considerably more work to balance, since those auras you described imo would leave them way too weak in the current state of the game.

(2.) The Nords we have rn are the Nords at their prime. We have to show their weaker starts. Just like the romans, it would be better if all of these more advance & "heavy" units would be locked behind a technology. It all starts from the Viking(the 2turn troop) hes just like a slightly better swordsman, this is what the whole nord early game should look like, Vikings anddddd basic archers. Cause this is what they really were composed off early on in their history. Not the unkillable axe loving gigachads. Lock everything else behind technologies.

Not sure if that would help much, since the issues I pointed are related to their power against fully upgraded units, so delaying their power a bit more would still leave them too strong when they get there.

Also, I think their current time required to get to their peak is not that far off from the ideal, since (at least in my vision) they are meant to be a strong mid-game offensive faction, not a late game one)

(3.) Not about balance just fun stuff, let vikings(the 2turn unit) to make viking ships. Underused cause you would need a dock, but once u have one you could just make better ships so instead make it a ship that can be made early and maybe has upgrades to turn to viming longboat with more unit capacity

Nordic hall can also make them, and I don't think they're that underused, nor underpowered, as they are very strong if you put a very tough unit inside (like zerks or huskarls), because the unit inside takes damage before the ship, and the unit inside doesn't have ship categories, so you need anti-unit ships to deal with them instead of anti-ship ships.

(4.) Axe throwing started as a sport, early vikings went on raids cause they need food for the winter, it wouldnt make sense if they would throw a perfectly good axe just to kill one guy or two(if picked up again), so lock it behind tech(same tech suggestion to limit heavy nordic units in early game). And yes make a new "default" axe thrower

Same as my answer to your second point, the issue I see there is not really the time they take to get to their peak, but the strength of them at their peak, so I don't think delaying that would help much.