Roman Senator

[Jerzy1241]

Roman Senator is overpovered. To big reach, movement and power of conversion.

[DreJaDe]

It's a 5 turn unit from a 5 turn factory, specialized in the said factory.

It's conversion strength has so many counters that literally all culture have one, many of which literally counters conversion as it's minor advantage. Anti conversion also are so much easily accessible than a roman senator.

I don't think it's "OP".

[Aral_Yaren]

@Stratego

Reduce Roman Senator range -1 (both for conversion and demoralize) and lower their conversion chance to 45%. This is balance issue.

As a litte note, there are no effective anti-conversion since Roman Senator has DEMORALIZE ABILITY that lower resistance drastically.

[DreJaDe]

Reduce Roman Senator range -1 (both for conversion and demoralize) and lower their conversion chance to 45%. This is balance issue.

A 5 turn specialized unit have a conversion rate lower than upgraded priest by 10% is not ok.

In this stats, it can only be now a 4 turn unit.

[godOfKings]

Demoralise dont work on siege machines, combine loyalty tech with fervour aura, and senator wont b that effective

[Aral_Yaren]

Really, since any sense in AoS demoralize work on machine?

A 5 turn specialized unit has a conversion rate lower than upgraded priest even by 15% is still OK because the unit has 2X ACTION, 5 RANGE, and 6 RANGE DEMORALIZE ABILITY THAT EFFECTIVE ENOUGH TO NULLIFY HIGH MENTAL RESISTANCE OF ANY FLESH & BLOOD UNIT EVEN WITH ALL THE SO-CALLED ANTI-CONVERSION BUFF.

[DreJaDe]

Really, since any sense in AoS demoralize work on machine?

A 5 turn specialized unit has a conversion rate lower than upgraded priest even by 15% is still OK because the unit has 2X ACTION, 5 RANGE, and 6 RANGE DEMORALIZE ABILITY THAT EFFECTIVE ENOUGH TO NULLIFY HIGH MENTAL RESISTANCE OF ANY FLESH & BLOOD UNIT EVEN WITH ALL THE SO-CALLED ANTI-CONVERSION BUFF.

So let me get this straight. You want priest, to be able to easily nullify senators? Because that's basically what will happen. A 3 turn priest that has so much uses becoming easily more powerful would be a better choice at that point.

A 5 turn specialized unit being easily denied its specialized skill by a 3 turn super versatile, and easily accessible unit?

Remember that Senators don't have an upgrade and due to that, it can be more powerful than a unit with upgrades all to more a 3 turn unit...

I think your suggestion is even more absurd.

[godOfKings]

If u r scared of senators, just use high res units like church units and siege mantlets, or may b spartan hoplite, zerk, winged hussar slav combo, rome dont have anything against heavy infantry currently except some cavs, senator may b 6 range but trebs r 11 range, they can outrange any tower senator is hiding in, u can use spy and scout birds instead of skirmishers for scouting purpose, i dont even face senators yet i can easily think so many counter strategies of my head, i wonder where ur opponent kept his senator hidden that made u so scared

Against siege tower u can also use 2 action units like samurai, maceman+bard combo then kill the senator with long ranged archers, or wait for siege tower to come near ur fort

[Aral_Yaren]

Fascinating. I only scare to my God, but I despise imbalance. Amateur observation of course, unable settle it right now attack personal, yet understandable for your type of people so feel easy yourselves. 裏 も 面手 も 笑う。

The way you said it, absolutely means that you never know how senator work with demoralize. On head anything possible, even child know it.

To put this straight, I stated this all to balance senator stats. The fact that already some complaints in chat weeks before prove this - not just because players mistake, but also there's imbalance stats.

I have explained why and you have your own head, like you say. So keep it on for your sake. May peace be upon you.

[DreJaDe]

To put this straight, I stated this all to balance senator stats. The fact that already some complaints in chat weeks before prove this - not just because players mistake, but also there's imbalance stats.

I've seen more reports of Berserk being OP than senator. Not saying completely saying its not but... I just don't see that it's still needed to be nerfed even with those complaints.

[godOfKings]

How about let dismiss propaganda reduce lasting turn of demoralise like all the other promote loyalty like spells, that should b enough i think

[b2198]

How about let dismiss propaganda reduce lasting turn of demoralise like all the other promote loyalty like spells, that should b enough i think

Yeah, this is a thing I can agree on, having ships and siege machines being basically disabled for 4 turns (or more, if it gets reapplied) is not very balanced imo. Though demoralize might need a small buff in raw stat-reductions and/or duration if this gets implemented, otherwise it might become too weak instead. Another solution might be to remove non-[Flesh and Blood] units from its targets entirely, also with a slight buff in stat-reduction, to make it more specialized.

[godOfKings]

i honestly thought machines and ships dont get demoralise applied on them only applicable to infantry, i think it doesnt need any buff though, even with dismiss propaganda, demoralise would still stick on enemy for 2 or so turns

[Jerzy1241]

Senator is to strong. I agree with Aral. Senator can ruin all small games. When you don't have the option to expand the game and each unit counts. Its range and power of conversion, absurd range of movement make it an unbalanced unit. Even his HP (if i remember good it needs 3 shots from longbow to take down?).

[godOfKings]

we should just remove ship and machines from categories that can b demoralised, ships have their own boarding hooks, wagon and siege tower, no matter how op will always pale in comparison to the dmg of defensive towers like castle, fort, ballista tower etc. so demoralise should never effect machines from the start

so here are the possible nerf suggestions:
1)let dismiss propaganda reduce turns of demoralise
2)remove machine and ship category from targetable units

@Stratego (dev) can u make the changes since endru has been inactive lately?

btw we can also make a change, like make it an aura similar to assassination sweep inside that will only affect the flesh and blood units garrisoned in the building/ship/siege tower/tc and not the garrisoning unit itself

[makazuwr32]

Another suggestion is to make senator having at base 1 action and +1 via exclusive tech researchable at roman garrison.

[godOfKings]

exactly wat tech could do that? a tech that makes a rule that every senator must go the gym daily and b fit and not allowed to expose their fat bellies?

[Stratego (dev)]

so here are the possible nerf suggestions:
1)let dismiss propaganda reduce turns of demoralise
2)remove machine and ship category from targetable units

Stratego (dev) can u make the changes since endru has been inactive lately?

i could but i would love to hear Endru's suggestion too.
is it urgent?

[makazuwr32]

exactly wat tech could do that? a tech that makes a rule that every senator must go the gym daily and b fit and not allowed to expose their fat bellies?

Eloquence studying for example.

[b2198]

so here are the possible nerf suggestions:
1)let dismiss propaganda reduce turns of demoralise
2)remove machine and ship category from targetable units

Stratego (dev) can u make the changes since endru has been inactive lately?

i could but i would love to hear Endru's suggestion too.
is it urgent?

I don't think so. There are some other (imo) bigger balancing issues, like the excessive power and availability of petardiers, slavics' category inconsistency, early carrack strength and steppe being way too weak for a variety of reasons, but I think they can all wait for Endru's return, since none of them is really gamebreaking and you look busy with the AoF rebalance. Also Endru is very good at reducing the overlooked things in these changes to a minimum, so waiting for his return could help make sure these changes are really the ones necessary to improve the balancing.

[Jerzy1241]

I no longer play small maps till it be fixed, because it is unplayable against senator

[godOfKings]

I agree that debuffing every unit with stackable speed reduction that lasts multiple turns is really op, there should b something that is a guaranteed weakness against demoralise,

Other changes r not immediately necessary to fix the balance of the game, although they also need fixing

[Endru1241]

Stratego

Reduce Roman Senator range -1 (both for conversion and demoralize) and lower their conversion chance to 45%. This is balance issue.

As a litte note, there are no effective anti-conversion since Roman Senator has DEMORALIZE ABILITY that lower resistance drastically.

Stratego (dev) can u make the changes since endru has been inactive lately?

I am amazed I wasn't mentioned even once, while stratego - twice.
Give him a break.

As for inbalance - no one mentioned, that demoralise is also resisted by mental resistance, so it's not pure debuff.
It's closer to Conversion or Declare Oni.
Which have much worse effect.

[godOfKings]

How about just make it that dismiss propaganda can affect demoralise and declare oni possess lasting turn? That alone would fix somewhat in many situations i guess

[Endru1241]

How about just make it that dismiss propaganda can affect demoralise and declare oni possess lasting turn? That alone would fix somewhat in many situations i guess

Slight problem with that is how many turns it does decrease effects by.
It set for all effects and decreasing declare oni and demoralise by 2 is too harsh.
So to solve it either:
- both those effects would need to last 2x as much and somehow decrease it's own lasting by 1 each turn (for total 2)
- dismiss propaganda decreasing lasting by 1 and having related effect decreasing Lower Resistance by additional 1

[b2198]

How about just make it that dismiss propaganda can affect demoralise and declare oni possess lasting turn? That alone would fix somewhat in many situations i guess

Slight problem with that is how many turns it does decrease effects by.
It set for all effects and decreasing declare oni and demoralise by 2 is too harsh.
So to solve it either:
- both those effects would need to last 2x as much and somehow decrease it's own lasting by 1 each turn (for total 2)
- dismiss propaganda decreasing lasting by 1 and having related effect decreasing Lower Resistance by additional 1

Second option seems a lot more intuitive for me. Is it possible to be done?

[Endru1241]

How about just make it that dismiss propaganda can affect demoralise and declare oni possess lasting turn? That alone would fix somewhat in many situations i guess

Slight problem with that is how many turns it does decrease effects by.
It set for all effects and decreasing declare oni and demoralise by 2 is too harsh.
So to solve it either:
- both those effects would need to last 2x as much and somehow decrease it's own lasting by 1 each turn (for total 2)
- dismiss propaganda decreasing lasting by 1 and having related effect decreasing Lower Resistance by additional 1

Second option seems a lot more intuitive for me. Is it possible to be done?

Added an effect, checked and it seems to work perfectly.
Demoralise and Declare Oni is decreased by 1 turn, while lower resistance by 2.

[b2198]

nice