GENERAL: Quick Balance changes vs overhauls

[makazuwr32]

I would prefer to postpone any other balancing issues fixing up to buildings and magic updates.

i must say veto to that.
we MUST make balance with these short updates.
also off topic again.
please open new topic dont answer here.

Problem here is that these 2 updates ARE CRITICALLY REQUIRED FOR: ELVES (magic, buildings), UNDEADS (magic, buildings), DWARVES (magic, buildings), SCALEFOLKS (buildings) — to actually achieve proper balance.
For example can't implement magic of dwarves right now one way that is planned for magic update without properly updating magic system for all other races. And making them for example with different values will just result in double/triple/quadruple work later on.
Right now we can't implement about 80% of planned balancing changes for them EXACTLY BECAUSE IT WILL MAKE THEM IN CURRENT SITUATION MORE OP without proper update for other races.

Update to all buildings and siege we can't limit to dwarves or scalefolks without touching for example elves or undeads who are weakest ones in terms of siege and buildings. We must update all 6 races at once.

And those small balance changes will not make things for us easier to balance.

You know how many times did i change concept of buildings update just because of these small changes during last 12 months? More than 250 times! And rethinking everything and relooking onto plan regarding new changes requires for me actually at least 3 whole days. And i am not counting time i am using to balance thing regarding your requests.

I am not joking that any "balancing changes" related to melee units and siege units delays development of buildings update by at least 3 days.

Alas i must say that:
It does not mean that we must completely abandon balancing of the game and concentrate on buildings update.

I am saying that some things like for example changes to orcish magic (i have saw complaints about that for last year at least 80 times) can't be made right now without magic update since it will make them only more op instead. And i do not want to change them now, than change them again 2 updates later, than again 5 updates later, than 7 updates later, etc, etc, again and again, and again last (if it will be last?) during magic update. It is more wise to change them once and only during magic update instead of changing them over and over.

It is not constructive from developer view.

...
i must say veto to that.

If you use veto in this case than development actually will be frozen. Just because i can't work on simply rebalancing things planned for major updates to current situation — it will require 2-6 months from me to work on them non-stop with abandoning my real life work. Or if without abandoning real life work than 12-36 months.

[Stratego (dev)]

i asked you not to answer here i split the topics.

[Stratego (dev)]

in this topic we can discuss this.

but again we talked it many times:
1. Never think i want to fix EVERYTHING with small changes.
2. I just want to fix the URGENT/DEVASTATINGLY BAD things with small changes - and believe me i can modify anything in 10 minutes to chop down an imbalanced unit/strategy - it is easy! and practically no time!

so if we now have (do we have?) 5-6 extreme balance problems i can change the things in about 15 minutes (it can be incresing a cost, changing a range or power, removing an ability aynthing - these are a easxy and quick changes)

I never said we must fix the tiniest balance problem with these - i feel you think i want to fix EVERYTHING with these small changes - no - i only wnat the EXTREME bad cases.

like that orc tower problem was easily eliminated.

---------

my veto is that you want to stop making the EXTREME balance problem fixes, i can not let that happen - as Others said they all expect we make quick fixes.
so in this point of view:

It is not constructive from developer view.

the contrary: this is the MOST constructive thing anyone can say: literally it means: "i CARE about the players NOW", and not try to pormise them months or years long overhauls - no, they need fixes now. as we did today!


------------

and lets be honest: all overhaul takes many months to start, many months to be ready, many month to be final (as there will be also unexpected problems) - so at sum 5-6 months per overhaul.

[Vladneral]

So you have nerf stone shelter but that was one of the counter option for scaledfolk fire tower spam now.
So now we need change them for balance it means ?
Making scaledfolks fire tower more costly that means they will have problems in fights with elves on small maps so need give scaledfolks some more tools against elves or rebalance elves early game then and both of that will have consequences also.

[diesel]

Here's an idea. Let's plain and simple make a checklist of reports/bugs/complaints etc and pin it (including date added). One location for all this that can be referenced. Cut/edit/paste the list as it changes. Why?

1) organisation/time-management
2) priorities can be assigned
3) others like myself or vlad might be able to help with some
4) *interrelationships* - we can easily see how one fix effects whats "in progress" and respond better

It's not a solution but a path.



For example, we keep modifying a list like this and delete them as completed. Helps to set priorities and moreso to reduce stress.

Player Reports:
1) example 1 - date opened
2) example 2 - date opened
...

Fixes in progress:
1) example 1 - date solution agreed - dev in charge
2) example 2 - date solution agreed - dev in charge
...

Major Changes/Updates:
1) Scaled leave UC - estimated release (just a goal)
2) Dwarves leave UC - estimated release
3) Bldgs Update - estimated release
...

[diesel]

Second would be a means of communication to the community - Public Relations.

A text box, or menu button, to say simply "Hey guys, currently working Orc Towers right now. New update/hotfix coming soon. Feel free to let us know any other concerns you have!"

Chat in game is useless and most will never look here or on discord. I've seen this on many small, single-dev apps.

This also allows the process to slow down, takes a lot of pressure off stratego.

[Savra]

So you have nerf stone shelter but that was one of the counter option for scaledfolk fire tower spam now.
So now we need change them for balance it means ?
Making scaledfolks fire tower more costly that means they will have problems in fights with elves on small maps so need give scaledfolks some more tools against elves or rebalance elves early game then and both of that will have consequences also.

Not necessarily, fire tower's are essentially scaledfolks cheap tower (poison tower is more of scout building than anything), equal more to the guard tower of humans (more or less):

Basically:

Cheap towers:
Humans:
Guard tower

Elves:
Parapat
Wolf den

Orcs:
Goblin outpost

Undead:

Dwarves:
Crossbow tower

Scaledfolks:
Fire tower
Poison tower (very cheap)

Costly towers:
Humans:
Fortress

Elves:
Outpost

Orcs:
Volcano

Undead:
Bone tower

Dwarves:
Cannon tower
Rifles nest

Scaledfolks:
Fort

Other towers/structures:
Humans:
Watchtower

Elves:

Orcs:

Undead:
Spirit tower
Graveyard tower
Blood fountain

Dwarves:

Scaledfolks:

[Savra]

Here's an idea. Let's plain and simple make a checklist of reports/bugs/complaints etc and pin it (including date added). One location for all this that can be referenced. Cut/edit/paste the list as it changes. Why?

1) organisation/time-management
2) priorities can be assigned
3) others like myself or vlad might be able to help with some
4) *interrelationships* - we can easily see how one fix effects whats "in progress" and respond better

It's not a solution but a path.



For example, we keep modifying a list like this and delete them as completed. Helps to set priorities and moreso to reduce stress.

Player Reports:
1) example 1 - date opened
2) example 2 - date opened
...

Fixes in progress:
1) example 1 - date solution agreed - dev in charge
2) example 2 - date solution agreed - dev in charge
...

Major Changes/Updates:
1) Scaled leave UC - estimated release (just a goal)
2) Dwarves leave UC - estimated release
3) Bldgs Update - estimated release
...

This, however, isn't necessarily a bad idea.

I'd say buildings update is probably going to happen after next update, cause rune casters aren't entirely needed but still, putting them in would mean I can finally separate the divine units from the rune casters in there own separate building I made awhile back.

[Stratego (dev)]

buildings update is probably going to happen after next update

sorry we agreed already that we do not that that soon: we agreed that we will pull out dwarves and scaleds from UC before any buildings overhaul.

[Jerryqian39]

Well I think it is important to visualise what work need to be done and which one is more urgent

[makazuwr32]

Regarding poison tower of scalefolks specifically:
I am thinking to reduce its effectiveness by making it to require to activate poison weapon in order to poison units with attack. Duration will be probably for several turns but 1 actual attack.
Activation might even be action free — main point is cooldown between actually applying dot effect.
Its role is scout tower of humans with some darter on top. Nothing more.
Fire tower i think also might function same way — for cheap towers giving passive on-hit effect is rather powerful.

As for diesel's suggestion — actually that sounds good enough.
Might need to clear up balancing and bug reporting forum for that.

So you have nerf stone shelter but that was one of the counter option for scaledfolk fire tower spam now.
So now we need change them for balance it means ?
Making scaledfolks fire tower more costly that means they will have problems in fights with elves on small maps so need give scaledfolks some more tools against elves or rebalance elves early game then and both of that will have consequences also.

Not necessarily, fire tower's are essentially scaledfolks cheap tower (poison tower is more of scout building than anything), equal more to the guard tower of humans (more or less):

Basically:

Cheap towers:
Humans:
Guard tower

Elves:
Parapat
Wolf den

Orcs:
Goblin outpost

Undead:

Dwarves:
Crossbow tower

Scaledfolks:
Fire tower
Poison tower (very cheap)

Costly towers:
Humans:
Fortress

Elves:
Outpost

Orcs:
Volcano

Undead:
Bone tower

Dwarves:
Cannon tower
Rifles nest

Scaledfolks:
Fort

Other towers/structures:
Humans:
Watchtower

Elves:

Orcs:

Undead:
Spirit tower
Graveyard tower
Blood fountain

Dwarves:

Scaledfolks:

I'll edit it a bit in few points:
1. Cheap towers:
Undeads — they will get flesh tower.
Dwarves — crossbow tower and rifles nest.
Elves — outpost
2. Costly towers:
Elves — parapet
Dwarves — cannon tower
Undead — spirit tower (i want to add for it extra functionality) and bone tower
3. Other buildings:
Elves — wolf den (i want to make it available to enter only for animals and beastfolk by the way)

Reason for elves parapet and outpost:

Parapet is extremely useful tower due to high carry capacity. If it will be kept cheap in future development it will be too easy to spam.
It will be better to make it as tough tower instead.

Outpost as tough tower is completely useless since tough towers main role is to tank on the frontline. Outpost on the other hand provides aura for extra attack range for shooters which conflicts with purpose of tough towers — shooters can't use this boost in melee.

Wolf den i see as non-fortification structure similar to undead graves. They might be too tough right now for their role so i am thinking to reduce their hp (but they will become slightly more spammable due to improving elven workers).

[Stratego (dev)]

Well I think it is important to visualise what work need to be done and which one is more urgent

i agree:
the current balance section is good for this, the only needed thing is to
1. write on each topic a priority like
PRI:1 .. PRI:10
(where 1 is the most important/urgent)

2. be sure each topic is discussing only ONE topic (i mean one balance problem not many)

[makazuwr32]

buildings update is probably going to happen after next update

sorry we agreed already that we do not that that soon: we agreed that we will pull out dwarves and scaleds from UC before any buildings overhaul.

I did not agree with it.
Also aside from naval fleet and magic units scalefolks and dwarves are almost ready to be released from uc status and only thing they need now are proper structure of their buildings and proper casters.
Same as with dwarves.

And better to do this along with buildings update. And with magic update.

I'd say with magic update we actually may release dwarves and scalefolks from uc status.

[Jerryqian39]

Dwarf and scale folk are playable now.infact dwarf are the best late game race and scale folk are the most annoying one to play aginst

[makazuwr32]

That's what i am talking about.
They only need now to get proper structure of buildings and fortifications.

And some extra casters.

Naval fleet due to some problems with designing it will be postponed for some time.

[Vladneral]

Not necessarily, fire tower's are essentially scaledfolks cheap tower (poison tower is more of scout building than anything), equal more to the guard tower of humans (more or less):

That hardly can be compared with guard tower - because of fire and guard tower have cost - 3 worker and 1 laborer action (that 11 turn cost units no matter of tech upgrade) . Fire tower in its turn can be constructed in 3 actions: 2 worker and one laborer(5 turn cost units). Because of fire that good enough in siege for early game. In small and medium maps fire tower spam hardly can be countered. And because lizard laborer have extremily high hp scaledfolks can dont care about extra units aside from workers and laborers.
So in small maps scaledfolks fire tower spam could be stoped by fire shelters for orcs.

[makazuwr32]

Not necessarily, fire tower's are essentially scaledfolks cheap tower (poison tower is more of scout building than anything), equal more to the guard tower of humans (more or less):

That hardly can be compared with guard tower - because of fire and guard tower have cost - 3 worker and 1 laborer action (that 11 turn cost units no matter of tech upgrade) . Fire tower in its turn can be constructed in 3 actions: 2 worker and one laborer(5 turn cost units). Because of fire that good enough in siege for early game. In small and medium maps fire tower spam hardly can be countered. And because lizard laborer have extremily high hp scaledfolks can dont care about extra units aside from workers and laborers.
So in small maps scaledfolks fire tower spam could be stoped by fire shelters for orcs.

Regarding poison tower of scalefolks specifically:
I am thinking to reduce its effectiveness by making it to require to activate poison weapon in order to poison units with attack. Duration will be probably for several turns but 1 actual attack.
Activation might even be action free — main point is cooldown between actually applying dot effect.
Its role is scout tower of humans with some darter on top. Nothing more.
Fire tower i think also might function same way — for cheap towers giving passive on-hit effect is rather powerful.

[Savra]

buildings update is probably going to happen after next update

sorry we agreed already that we do not that that soon: we agreed that we will pull out dwarves and scaleds from UC before any buildings overhaul.

Sorry, I should have specified that a bit more clearly, after next update (or next 2, depending), dwarves and scaledfolks will be out of UC, as they're practically almost done now.

Only a few more things left to add, and then we'll finally be working on buildings update:

Dwarves:
Navy
Rune casters (not major priority)

Scaledfolks:
Navy
Salamanders

[Stratego (dev)]

I did not agree with it.

actually you did very much !

...
Sorry, I should have specified that a bit more clearly, after next update (or next 2, depending), dwarves and scaledfolks will be out of UC, as they're practically almost done now.

Only a few more things left to add, and then we'll finally be working on buildings update:

Dwarves:
Navy
Rune casters (not major priority)

Scaledfolks:
Navy
Salamanders

this sound good, but a "balance" will require balance on naval too - so we need to include Navy too to remove UC

[makazuwr32]

I did not agree with it.

actually you did very much !

Where?

As for naval fleet — we will make some stats for them to be approximately around humans and orcs but actual balance still will be postponed for later.

I do not like current situation with water fights in general and thus we might need naval update later.

[makazuwr32]

As for naval fleet — we will make some stats for them to be approximately around humans and orcs but actual balance still will be postponed for later.

What do i mean here is that i will not take into account all possible combinations of units for dwarven naval fleet to perfectly balance them.

Not right now at least.

I will try to exclude some op variants if i will find any but nothing more.

[Stratego (dev)]

Where?

please dont make me search for it
believe me, i was "subborn" about this always so we had to end in this aggreement, sorry

As for naval fleet — we will make some stats for them to be approximately around humans and orcs but actual balance still will be postponed for later.

if you mean they will have a fleet that is about ok in game (not in perfect balance but without grave imbalances) - than fine for me.

I do not like current situation with water fights in general and thus we might need naval update later.

can be later - however if u know any big imbalance there, we need a new topic where it can be discussed and quick fixed.

[Stratego (dev)]

What do i mean here is that i will not take into account all possible combinations of units for dwarven naval fleet to perfectly balance them.

Not right now at least.

I will try to exclude some op variants if i will find any but nothing more.

awesome!

[Stratego (dev)]

Well I think it is important to visualise what work need to be done and which one is more urgent

i agree:
the current balance section is good for this, the only needed thing is to
1. write on each topic a priority like
PRI:1 .. PRI:10
(where 1 is the most important/urgent)

2. be sure each topic is discussing only ONE topic (i mean one balance problem not many)

if anyone have a tiny little idea which already posted balance issue is what priority please tell me so i can write in the topic titles.
i mean the topics here: viewforum.php?f=244
thanks!