Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED
Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED
Just comparing it to winged hussar provides enough proof:
Hussar Centurion
Cost: 6 6
Hp: 35 40
Attack power: 12 14
Armor: 0 3
Pierce Armor: 2 1
Speed: 6 5
Sight: 6 8
Spell resistance: 100% 100%
Special: Aura
Centurion only disadvantage over Hussar is speed (which is specialty of Winged hussar) and pierce armor which is almost balanced by larger hp.
I think centurion attack should be reduced to maybe normal 10 and his hp and/or armor to normal knight (35 and 2 respectively)
Hussar Centurion
Cost: 6 6
Hp: 35 40
Attack power: 12 14
Armor: 0 3
Pierce Armor: 2 1
Speed: 6 5
Sight: 6 8
Spell resistance: 100% 100%
Special: Aura
Centurion only disadvantage over Hussar is speed (which is specialty of Winged hussar) and pierce armor which is almost balanced by larger hp.
I think centurion attack should be reduced to maybe normal 10 and his hp and/or armor to normal knight (35 and 2 respectively)
Age of Strategy design leader
Re: Centurion OP
I agree since the centurion is really for his commanding ability (his special aura).
Adjusting its attack to 10-12 should balance it nicely (in my opinion). As it is, I have a really hard time killing them, especially given that they beef up the stats of their surrounding units.
Adjusting its attack to 10-12 should balance it nicely (in my opinion). As it is, I have a really hard time killing them, especially given that they beef up the stats of their surrounding units.
Thanks!
Josh
Josh
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15741
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm
Re: Centurion OP
ok, i changed it to 35 hp, and to 10 power.
and also modified the "high morale" to affect only roman legionaries, nothing else.
what do u think?
(up on server in 10 minuteS)
and also modified the "high morale" to affect only roman legionaries, nothing else.
what do u think?
(up on server in 10 minuteS)
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED
No, now it's really useless as many other units
Can't we just raise the cost and leave it as a useful unit?
We are full of useless units ans we really don't need more...
By the awy, the unit was balanced around the idea of being a heavy knight with commanding bonus, and his stats were pretty similar to a heavy knight, the bonus was meant for every unit with an increased bonus to legionaries (never implemented).
Removing the bonus to other units and reducing the stats by comparing it with the hussar (one of the most useless unit in game, that is good only for his speed) will make it loose any purpose...
Why should i bother building a unit that is weak compared to a heavy knight, that cost 2 rounds more and that give a bonus just to legionaries (that aren't that useful themselves)?
A player will just stick to building again just knights, halberdiers and man at arms... and what's the point in having a game with 100 units when you always use the same?
I can't really see the logic behind...
Can't we just raise the cost and leave it as a useful unit?
We are full of useless units ans we really don't need more...
By the awy, the unit was balanced around the idea of being a heavy knight with commanding bonus, and his stats were pretty similar to a heavy knight, the bonus was meant for every unit with an increased bonus to legionaries (never implemented).
Removing the bonus to other units and reducing the stats by comparing it with the hussar (one of the most useless unit in game, that is good only for his speed) will make it loose any purpose...
Why should i bother building a unit that is weak compared to a heavy knight, that cost 2 rounds more and that give a bonus just to legionaries (that aren't that useful themselves)?
A player will just stick to building again just knights, halberdiers and man at arms... and what's the point in having a game with 100 units when you always use the same?
I can't really see the logic behind...
Age of Fantasy design leader
-
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:01 pm
- Location: The Great Castle of DarkKingdom
Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED
I also agree with Alexander82. I dont think the high moral should only affect legionaries. But i dont agree that the cebturion should be like a heavy knight because the main purpose of this unit is to make nearby units stronger not a good fighting unit. I think that its armor should also be made to 1.
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15741
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm
Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED
so it is too weak now.
ok, than please discuss it and come to a conclusion, and i will change so.
ok, than please discuss it and come to a conclusion, and i will change so.
- TheBluePhoenix
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:09 pm
Re: Centurion OP
Why are we reducing a good unit to make it equivalent to a bad unit instead of making the bad one good??
BEWARE!!!!The long lost empire of phoenicia is rising- The world is but just near the golden age,wherein men played and frolicked,without any worries at all
- TheBluePhoenix
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:09 pm
Re: Centurion OP
we cannot reduce the turn cost as knight(4) , hungarian hussar(5) and winged hussar(6) have to be different in power and hence turn cost
So all we are left qith is to improve its stats as follows:
Cost 6
Hp 40
Attack power 18
armour 1
Pierce armour 1
Speed 7 ( their special ability was their speed which should be more than any other cavalry unit)
Sight 7
This should make them useful enough
So all we are left qith is to improve its stats as follows:
Cost 6
Hp 40
Attack power 18
armour 1
Pierce armour 1
Speed 7 ( their special ability was their speed which should be more than any other cavalry unit)
Sight 7
This should make them useful enough
BEWARE!!!!The long lost empire of phoenicia is rising- The world is but just near the golden age,wherein men played and frolicked,without any worries at all
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Centurion OP
Age of Fantasy design leader
Re: Centurion OP - IMPLEMENTED
No, it was way better:Alexander82 wrote: ... his stats were pretty similar to a heavy knight ...
Hussar/Centurion/Heavy knight
Cost: 6/6/4 (+ research 6)
Hp: 35/40/35
Attack power: 12/14/12
Armor: 0/3/2
Pierce Armor: 2/1/2
Speed: 6/5/5
Sight: 6/8/5?
Spell resistance: 100%/100%/0%
Special: none/Aura/none
As you can see a Winged hussar has similar stats to heavy knight and if we assume they are equals in power - their cost effectiveness would balance each other at 18 turns (building 3 hussars * 6 turns vs building 3 knights * 4 turns + 6 turn research).
If we will demand special units to be equal to upgraded basic units, then they would be too much for non-upgraded ones (for example when beginner player still didn't buy this upgrades). So the problem you are discussing here is existence of upgrades for basic units or the other way around - no upgrades for the rest of them.Alexander82 wrote: Why should i bother building a unit that is weak compared to a heavy knight, that cost 2 rounds more and that give a bonus just to legionaries (that aren't that useful themselves)?
A player will just stick to building again just knights, halberdiers and man at arms... and what's the point in having a game with 100 units when you always use the same?
I can't really see the logic behind...
Actually more historically accurate would be some other things - Polish winged hussars used some special breed of tarpan - horse, which was strong, had good condition but was not especially fast. Winged hussar charge was fearsome because of long ( 5.66 meters - over 18 ft long) but light lance that could pierce through few rows of pikemen, their exceptional training and equipment (In some cases they fought as archer or light infantry unit) and the fact that after the charge they were withdrawing at back of the army where they were given rested horses and new lance (it was one-time use only) which made an illusion that the charge was endless.TheBluePhoenix wrote:we cannot reduce the turn cost as knight(4) , hungarian hussar(5) and winged hussar(6) have to be different in power and hence turn cost
So all we are left qith is to improve its stats as follows:
Cost 6
Hp 40
Attack power 18
armour 1
Pierce armour 1
Speed 7 ( their special ability was their speed which should be more than any other cavalry unit)
Sight 7
This should make them useful enough
So I would leave their stats but just give them trample.
That would be good, but maybe area damage or greater attack for hussar instead of that huge of a speedAlexander82 wrote:
Age of Strategy design leader
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Centurion OP
heavy knight hp is 39, not 35.
The heavy knight halso has a higher pierce armor, so imho it's pretty balanced. It's the hussar that is weak, also compared to a normal non-upgraded knight. Also special units don't benefit from smiths improvements, so they loose anyway compared to basic units
When i play i produce the heavy knight tech as soon as i can and i can assure you that is effective. Heavy knight are my favorite units in game and i think that a 6 turn tech doesn't make them that much weaker... Once you made it you can have hundreds of improved knight for a decent cost; that's why special units must be really "special" or they are useless compared to an already great unit.
Hussars just give you some speed and some weaker stats compared to an heavy knight. They might be almost decent if you play in a fast map with 2 tcs and few space for development and you focus on other upgrades (archers or swordman) and you just need some cavalry, but, in the end, if you don't focus on improving cavalry you are going to use something else to win your game...
And, about new layer without improvements, they can play maps without upgrades (it is possible and it might be a good way to learn the game) or single player maps and earn all the gems they need...
The heavy knight halso has a higher pierce armor, so imho it's pretty balanced. It's the hussar that is weak, also compared to a normal non-upgraded knight. Also special units don't benefit from smiths improvements, so they loose anyway compared to basic units
When i play i produce the heavy knight tech as soon as i can and i can assure you that is effective. Heavy knight are my favorite units in game and i think that a 6 turn tech doesn't make them that much weaker... Once you made it you can have hundreds of improved knight for a decent cost; that's why special units must be really "special" or they are useless compared to an already great unit.
Hussars just give you some speed and some weaker stats compared to an heavy knight. They might be almost decent if you play in a fast map with 2 tcs and few space for development and you focus on other upgrades (archers or swordman) and you just need some cavalry, but, in the end, if you don't focus on improving cavalry you are going to use something else to win your game...
And, about new layer without improvements, they can play maps without upgrades (it is possible and it might be a good way to learn the game) or single player maps and earn all the gems they need...
Last edited by Alexander82 on Sat Sep 12, 2015 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Age of Fantasy design leader
Re: Centurion OP
About heavy knight hp - sorry - my mistake. Although I agree with almost everything you write. I actually don't really use hussar just knight and lancers ( sometimes light cavalry and elephants and others rarely), because heavy versions make these units best. But old stats of centurion made spamming him among some infantry better than heavy knight.
In my opinion all special units should benefit from blacksmith research. Blacksmith upgrades only for basic units would be good if no upgrades to another unit existed.
Also even AI sometimes gets annoying spamming too strong special units at the start.
The one thing I fear is trying to balance all infantry to level of man-at-arms - it would be just too freaking much.
In my opinion all special units should benefit from blacksmith research. Blacksmith upgrades only for basic units would be good if no upgrades to another unit existed.
Also even AI sometimes gets annoying spamming too strong special units at the start.
The one thing I fear is trying to balance all infantry to level of man-at-arms - it would be just too freaking much.
Age of Strategy design leader
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Centurion OP
In that case we should make some real upgrades for other units. For national units it's normal that they are superior
Age of Fantasy design leader
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15741
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm
Re: Centurion OP
soon i am publishing so i changed to this for now, we can polish it later:
u.costTurn = 7;
u.sight = 6; //visiblity range
u.hpMax = 40; //health points
u.armorPierce = 3; //how big the armor against arrows
u.armorNormal = 2; //how big the armor against normal attack
u.power = 14; // u.power of its attack
u.costTurn = 7;
u.sight = 6; //visiblity range
u.hpMax = 40; //health points
u.armorPierce = 3; //how big the armor against arrows
u.armorNormal = 2; //how big the armor against normal attack
u.power = 14; // u.power of its attack
- TheBluePhoenix
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:09 pm
Re: Centurion OP
It is for hussar or centurion?
BEWARE!!!!The long lost empire of phoenicia is rising- The world is but just near the golden age,wherein men played and frolicked,without any worries at all
Re: Centurion OP
That looks better. (It is basically the old stats for the centurion, but cost 7 instead of 6)
I like it.
I like it.
Thanks!
Josh
Josh
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Centurion OP
Yes, and it also should have the double bonus for legionaries
Age of Fantasy design leader
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Centurion OP
Daniel, can you add the double bonus? In the original idea i've called it "legion commander" and it has exactly the same effect of "high morale" skill but it only affect roman units (like legionaries and centurions) and it stack with the high morale bonus
Age of Fantasy design leader
-
- Site Admin
- Posts: 15741
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:28 pm
Re: Centurion OP
yes, i will!
i will need an indicator image for that too.
the morale is this: maybe this could be the new (seems legion badge like), an then we need one for morale
i will need an indicator image for that too.
the morale is this: maybe this could be the new (seems legion badge like), an then we need one for morale
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
- Alexander82
- Posts: 7969
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:18 pm
Re: Centurion OP
what about that?
- Attachments
-
- morale2.png (14.92 KiB) Viewed 7709 times
-
- legion.png (14.92 KiB) Viewed 7709 times
-
- morale.png (14.92 KiB) Viewed 7709 times
Age of Fantasy design leader
- TheBluePhoenix
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:09 pm
Re: Centurion OP
i like the first one
BEWARE!!!!The long lost empire of phoenicia is rising- The world is but just near the golden age,wherein men played and frolicked,without any worries at all
-
- Posts: 393
- Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:01 pm
- Location: The Great Castle of DarkKingdom
Re: Centurion OP
I still think that this is too strong. It needs to have less attack or less health because the AI are making quite a lot of these and it is very hard to kill so if a player is using centurion as a fighting unit not a unit that makes other units better I think that it would be very very difficult to win.
- TheBluePhoenix
- Posts: 1498
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:09 pm
Re: Centurion OP
No the centurion is now fine. I have made a map using them and other roman units. It will be in the next update. Check it out and you will know that they can be easily killed. Just penetrate the formation with strong units and then ambush the centurion with lancers and pikemen. Thats all. It was bwtter previously also but was just op compared to hussars. Hence a different turn cost was nweded which is now implemented. More restrictions will ruin this good unit
BEWARE!!!!The long lost empire of phoenicia is rising- The world is but just near the golden age,wherein men played and frolicked,without any worries at all
Re: Centurion OP
I agree with TheBluePhoenix
Re: Centurion OP
TheBluePhoenix's right. Now it is longer to build and has 1 less armor (meaning 5 attacks from non-upgraded knight not 6). He is still better than hussar, but it's not op.
Age of Strategy design leader
Re: Centurion OP
Better than hussar:
If you mean better than hussar like "I want a strong unit to beef the stats of surrounding infantry" then yes you're right.
But if you mean better as in "I want a super fast unit with a high attack and moderate resilience to mop up a field of infantry" then you are very much wrong.
Centurion vs hussar: better for you maybe, but let's not make blanket statements.
If you mean better than hussar like "I want a strong unit to beef the stats of surrounding infantry" then yes you're right.
But if you mean better as in "I want a super fast unit with a high attack and moderate resilience to mop up a field of infantry" then you are very much wrong.
Centurion vs hussar: better for you maybe, but let's not make blanket statements.
Thanks!
Josh
Josh
Re: Centurion OP
You are right COOLguy. It was an overstatement.
Hussar has it's niche, just for me centurion is better fit - I use him more often (pikeman killing knights without the need for tower/archer shot before is really nice).
Hussar has it's niche, just for me centurion is better fit - I use him more often (pikeman killing knights without the need for tower/archer shot before is really nice).
Age of Strategy design leader