Nymph

[Alexander82]

No

You know, I think that's the shortest response you've ever written. I guess you don't like anything going that direction at all?

Yes

[Sunrise Samurai]

Okay then. I'll scrap that idea. Having fun with one word answers, or just keeping it short for the sake of time?

[Alexander82]

Simply that would make this unit a way to have free units better than a reanimation spell.

Having the chance to give a negative conversion chance would just assure conversion for low resistance units.

Since we already talked about the conversion chance percent I don't see why we should return on the matter.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Oh. I think you misunderstood. It would only reduce spell resistance to a minimum of 0%, essentially allowing conversion to have the full 30% chance without being reduced by resistance. It would be less than useless on low resistance units, since you would be better off just trying to convert without the debuff. The only purpose would be against high resistance units actually.

If a unit has 20% resistance, 2 nymphs trying to convert only, you have a 24% chance for the first to succeed and the second to be free to try a different unit, and a 42.24% chance overall to convert just that one unit. Using one nymph to remove that resistance gives the full 30% chance to convert.

Even assuming 30% resistance, 2 nymphs have a 37.59% success chance attempting convert, versus 30% only if you remove resistance.

Running the numbers, it takes fairly high resistance or a lot of nymphs to be worth reducing spell resistance, and in the case of the latter you lose the chance to convert multiple units that turn.

I'm not trying to increase chances of convert spell, merely allow a way for it to have the normal​ chance against certain impossible units.

[Alexander82]

There are many units that have more than 30 and less than 100. They are meant to be hard to convert cause they are costly units or elite units or pretty loyal units.

I think those values need to stay as they are.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Alright then. Now that you have addressed the heart of the matter, I can be satisfied with that answer. I deeply apologize if I seemed annoyingly persistent.

That aside, what do you think of the unit as the stats on the original posting are? We might have to remove the distraction ability if Daniel objects to the addition​ of dodge from it, but that's alright.

[Alexander82]

Distraction should work only until next turn (it is basically an active action that the nymph uses to dodge for that turn) and no cooldown (she can try to distract the enemies using seduction every time she wants).

About the rest I think it is ok. You aren't going to leave that unit in plain sight anyway, so the dodge effect is needed during movements from a structure to another.

Also, about the name, dryads are basically oak's nymph so we might consider giving that another name and add the u_nymph category

[Sunrise Samurai]

Distraction: that sounds good.

U_nymph: categorizing this with dryads sounds fun. Maybe give group upgrades at a later point. Should we work on the nymph to establish some common ground before we add it? Maybe a weak poisoned attack or something?

[Alexander82]

I think not since wouldn't be no point in such an upgrade for the dryad that already have it. But we might add some traits related to the wood tiles (if possible)

[Sunrise Samurai]

I was actually considering dryads getting an upgrade for stronger poison effects. Maybe a stackable one, or else a minor stat debuff on hit, as though a result of the poison.

Tile related effects: please elaborate. It sounds interesting, but so far tiles have only changed movement speed or blocked certain movement types.

[LordOfAles]

I like this idea, but how about keeping the power and consider lowering just 10% ressistance? Still u Might think twice before sending only ur elite units to battle

[Sunrise Samurai]

I think that ability was pretty soundly rejected. Still, just what is already mentioned before that is pretty valuable. I can think of a few times I've bagged an orc leader (or upgrade) with a lich, or a warship that helped me hold a coast. Orc/troll shamans too, for their impressive heal rate.

It also dignifies the existence of the "loyalty" tech, which is currently not worth much, being only moderately helpful in a humans vs undead match

[LordOfAles]

I know it was rejected, but i thought only 10% lol, maybe even not cumulative

[Sunrise Samurai]

Have to see what Alexander says. I'm not expecting a very favorable response lol

[LordOfAles]

Neither do i but, thats why we discuss anyway, we are all keyboard warriors

[Alexander82]

At the moment the main thing elves lack are big melee heavy hitter (sentinels hit hard but they aren't made for mass destruction). I honestly don't think that giving them the chance to easily convert orc/human units might be a great idea.

I can't imagine a more imbalanced thing than a elven army with a bunch of ettins/orc kings/imperial knights.

Really, i think that in this game conversion is a bit too difficult to handle easily.

It is true that undeads can convert already but magic is their trump card. About the approved orc slaver, on orc side, is meant to convert small units in a very short range so it won't be basically a great problem for balance (having a few soldiers from other races is not a great addition for orcs since they already have the best melee and that unit will never reach ranged units).


I don't want to say a definitive no but this unit can definitely wait some more.

[LordOfAles]

Well SS it isnt a no, so i suppose tag this as PEND?

[Sunrise Samurai]

Ahh. I actually do have an issue with the orc slaver, for the same reasons you rejected any way to get around spell resistance. The current version based on hp makes it easy to convert casters, which are supposed to be some of the most resistant units to conversion.

[Alexander82]

True but casters are ranged. That's why you can easily avoid their conversion. That unit will basically convert weak infantry.

[Sunrise Samurai]

Place it in a wagon, you can rush in, convert caster, then hide the caster in the wagon to keep it safe for a turn until you can leave. It's a little too easy, honestly.

[Alexander82]

Never saw a wagon returning home... Guys really, you can convert it or simply unload a swarm of giants and aoe hit everything.

Trying to convert a caster (that would be easily killed the following turn by some archers) is simply not worth the effort.

Also you can simply keep a caster in a building to prevent every chance to convert it. The problem is how easy would be to convert melee units that are always exposed in the front line.

[Lynx Shafir]

I don't think conversation is only undead privilege.
And fits well for many mitical, nature spirit for elves.
(For them I suggest to can convert only living units)

Anyway undeads have rn only 1 caster for that.-this game tactic lies unexploited.
And u have 100%resistant units .
Humans have loyalty tech in vain.


I have few variants.

1.add convert with CD

2.Charm
A.- unit dosnt changes side but is unable to attack, move
B. Temporary side change - effect ends if caster dies. After 3 turns
Can be disenchanted.
C.can make a special target list


3.Make a map editor unit.

All this for a 6 cost middle game unit.


None of first 2 wud result any unbalanced giant army on elven side, nor harms undead position.

[Savra]

Agree with lynx on convert, honestly, I don't see anyone else having a curse spell and that's undeads most powerful and unique spell they have. Make more units with that and you should be good.

And again, charm is a sirens move that effects ships only, needs new name for spell.

Siren
Cost 4
HP 10
Attack 2
Range 1
Armor 0
Pierce Armor 0
Speed 4
Sight 4
Action 1
Spell possibility 20%
Spell Resistance 0%

Spells:
Daydream: Like the curse spell but it only affects ships (cooldown 3)
Lullaby: Like the slow spell but it only affects ships
Charm: Like the fear spell but it only affects ships
Heal

[Lynx Shafir]

I gonna make a new topic for discussion about other variants

I consider this a "muse"
(knowing that is not complete the same thing)

Siren concept needs polishing if good against only ships
Means good only against humans.

May "Naiads" help deal with amphibians*