Russian siege artillery — "Unicorn"

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makazuwr32
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Russian siege artillery — "Unicorn"

Post by makazuwr32 »

"Unicorn" was the heaviest type of siege artillery in russian army of 15th-17th centuries — its caliber was 400+ millimeters and up to 750 millimeters. In russian army they were known also as "Town destroyers".

They shot only normal cannon balls because of insane amount of gunpowder required to shoot 1-4 tons ball. They were used to disintegrate any fortification walls and towers.

Stats:
Cost - 10 turns, trainable at upgraded siege workshop (only in it! can't be trained in normal one), requires gunpowder tech and heavy cannons tech (new tech, researchable after gunpowder tech in any siege workshop for 6 turns)
Hp - 50
Attack - 150, no counter, 100% miss chance against any non-building type target
Range - 0 (+5 minimal range via ability, +14 maximum range via ability)
Armor - 3/10
Speed - 1 in transport mode, 0 in siege mode
Sight - 12
Spell resist - 60%
Bonuses:
200% to fortifications, 600% to megas

Abilities:
Transform between modes
In siege mode:
Shoot cannon ball - enables attack for unit, +5 minimal range, +14 max range for 1 turn (no action cost), 4 turns cooldown, has initial cooldown (so you can't shoot right after you transform it to siege mode).


Bonuses could be higher if needed.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Endru1241
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Re: Russian siege artillery — "Unicorn"

Post by Endru1241 »

It's Inrog or Yedinorog or something else I did not hear about?
Inrog was cast in 1577 and it was ~210 mm caliber and weighted over 7 tons. It was one of the biggest cannons made for the purpose of the Livonian War. I don't know what it could shoot, but Mons Meg, being over twice the caliber (510mm) used 175kg stone projectiles, so I can calculate what could weight inrog shots - ~40kg if steel, ~14kg if stone.
Yedinorog is 18th century weapon, so we are not disscussing it.

I know there were bigger cannons (Tzar cannon being the biggest), but I am 100% sure no cannon ever made shot anything over 2 tonnes.
Biggest cannons in the world were shooting projectiles around 500kg in weight. Theoretically Tzar Cannon had 1.7t cannonball prepared, but there is no historical evidence of ever using it. The cannon itself was only shot max few times, probably only once and definitely using lighter shell. The most agreed would be 800kg grape shot, which still makes it probably heaviest shell up to renaissance.

Balance-wise: it couldn't be the sole weapon with similar range, because lack of counter (14 range allows to shot, pack, go into transport or behind more armored/anti-cavalry allies before knight unit could get close). That much range allows it to be well behind the army and still attack - it can even be surrounded by 3 lines of defence, still not attackable by trebuchets. That indicates the need to similar ranged weapons on the defending side.Introducing other weapons with similar range however starts an arms race.
No - I don't think there should ever exist any unit with more than 10 range.
Besides cannons never really made to outrange counterweight trebuchet in the medieval. They were more mobile, convenient and started to have greater power around mid-15th century. The start of 16th century made replacement even more solid, as cannons became cheaper.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Russian siege artillery — "Unicorn"

Post by makazuwr32 »

Read carefully.
1. This unit will have 0 range at base and will require to use ability to get that range.
And ability has cooldown 4 turns. So it can shoot once in 4 turns and only in siege mode.

2. During siege of Kazan Ivan 4th used 60 cannons with caliber 200mm+ and among them 12 with caliber 400mm+. And in total they shot 1200+ cannon balls for several days. If i remember correctly than smaller ones (200 mm+) were shot 7-8 times per sun day and bigger ones were shot 5-6 times per sun day.
Try to count how many times each cannot was used. It was more than "for few shots".
Alas if you meant that these cannons couldn't shoot fast as other ones than you are right. After each shot it required cooling fhom shot gazes or it was easlily to crack due to overheating and thus they were able to shoot only maximum 24 times per day and that was when they had most modern (for that time) cooling mechanism. And without it they were able to shoot only up to 10 times/day.

3. Counterweight trebushet was easily outranged by bombard-type cannons. Trebushets in that war had max range about 1 kilometer. No more.
Cannons which were put on heavy walls (and inside them) were able to shoot up to 1.5 kilometers if used by well known artillerist who also knows well cannon itself and landscape.
Bombards were made to outrange defencive cannons and to penetrate such massive walls. And rather common for that time "Onager"-type bombard with 210 millimeters caliber was able to shoot normally up to 1.5 kilometers and when used by master artillerist than up to 2 kilometers. That's the second one by the way.
And even bigger bombards were able to shoot up to 2.5 kilometers when used by such professionals. So here you are wrong.

4. After shot yes you can pack and hide.
But because of "initial cooldown" SpecAction ability to gain range for shooting after transformation into siege mode will be forced to be on cooldown and thus you will be forced to wait for 4 turns to shoot once. And this must be its main weak spot. Defenders will have 3 turns before that bringer of destruction can shoot. And it is easily to get trebushets into wagon, and on next turn move wagon, get trebushets out of wagon and shoot + kill that bombard cannon.

So actually despite such massive range it has lots of weaknesses and thus not that hard to counter.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Endru1241
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Re: Russian siege artillery — "Unicorn"

Post by Endru1241 »

1. I've read it carefully. It doesn't change much if it's completely outside the range and even outside of view range. Such huge range is the game changer.
And it couldn't be present in only one culture.
2. Read carefully. I wrote, that Tzar Cannon was used at most for a few shots.
And it was only to prove another point - the weight of shells You posted is clearly wrong.
3. From my knowledge - the effective range of common trebuchet was rather lower +- half of that. But it was the same for bombards! It needed late 16th century to outrange that limit. Only 17th century and further development gave cannons with +1000m effective range. And pretty much only stationary ones, like coastal batteries. Napoleonic time bombards was used on less than 2km range. And that's miles away in terms of technology.
Trebuchet stopped being used because of lesser power and convinience, not range.
4. Positioning is the key here. If defender siege machines would have to moved outside of walls and deploy - that would be great for attacker cavalry in waiting.
It makes a difference if attacker siege can shoot walls just outside defenders range or +4 fields inside.
Range and speed dictates initiative and flow of battle. It allows to set up the enemy.

Lastly - what do e even discuss, if AoS is yet to go into the 16th century. Right now we are limited to 15th.
The only three newer exceptions can be explained otherwise.
Hussar is not real representation of polish Husaria - it lacks most distinctive characteristic, which was very long lances outranging professional pikemen.They would rather represent gusars - serbian cavalry, which gave start on hussaria development (and hussars in different countries).
Musketeer should be renamed to handgoneer, because that's more logical to be first gunpowder shooter.
Taneshigima Ashigaru should be ashigaru with different weapon - it doesn't even require gunpowder right now.
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Re: Russian siege artillery — "Unicorn"

Post by makazuwr32 »

1. Uhm it won't be presented in only 1 culture anyway.
I am planning similar ones (but with a bit different range-wise and attack-wise stats) for chinese, osmans and britain. These 4 cultures were ones who produced and used most commonly such big cannons.

4. Yes it will be. But still 1 shot in 4 turns at range 14 is not that scary. Especially with 100% miss chance against anything that can move INCLUDING enemy siege like trebushets. This will be able to hit for sure only buildings.
Also i must admit one additional thing: when unit transforms from stationary form to moving form it can't move at the same turn.

3. About effective ranges: speed with which was launched/shot projectile and mass of it were completely different for trebushets and for bombards.
Also massive walls with height 15-25 meters and 3-4 meters wide (as well as rather long because it covers whole city) were perfect target practice.
And effectiveness of more predictable bombards is much higher than of trebushets, especially when they were used by professionals.
Also that effectiveness you are talking about was against non-stationary things. Against stationary and big things they were effective at those ranges i mentioned.

During Napoleonic wars bombards were not that big anymore because fortifications were not that useful and mortars with explosive+burning oil balls were able to easily bring chaos inside any fortification. Also another reason why bombards were not that big is mobility of army — in that time mobility became one of the keys of victory and such massive bombards would only slow army too much (Ivan 4th required 5 months to get to Kazan with all his cannons because of those bombards).

In Europe yes. In Russia, Britain, France, Osman empire no. Russian artillerists always were great in terms of calculating trajectory (but that was because they had good practice as well). Other mentioned countries replaced trebushets with cannons because of similar things - it was easier to use them, they were smaller than trebushets for at least same if not higher effectiveness and last thing is that all mentioned countries had great naval fleet and for it cannons became saviours because other types of weaponry were not effective.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
© by Makazuwr32™.
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