New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

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phoenixffyrnig
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New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

Another offshoot from a thread about how to make siege warfare more nuanced

I don't have a clue what this type of thing would be called, but surely something like this existed? Any help appreciated. I've roughly described the sort of thing, it's purpose is obvious, as a machine that has anti siege capabilities, and b2198 has perfectly described a situation where it really would be useful.
b2198 wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:36 pm
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 9:25 am
25 Anti-siege siege unit.
I'm thinking something between a ballista and catapult (in cost, range and strength) that lobs some sort of fiery barrel of nasty with boni Vs Siege and Armoured Siege. I don't know what this would be called, but I'm thinking a movement takes action rather than packed/unpacked, so it's speed would act as defense Vs other siege. (might need a new category to avoid zero chance of miss from trebs and cats).
I agree with this, anti-siege is something that could use some improvements, since cavalry and infantry are not always an option (think a trebuchet on the other side of a mountain or river) and archers aren't really good at dealing with them (I mean, sure, an elite longbow fully upgraded could take a heavy trebuchet stand in 10 shots, or 6 with morale buff, even 5 with both morale and onmyoji buffs, assuming the enemy doesn't have a battlefield blacksmith buffing/repairing the trebuchet, but that's not really efficient, and they are still outranged, so they would have to move closer, leaving them vulnerable), so in a bunch of situations it devolves to "whoever has more trebuchets wins"
Or something along those lines that fulfills a similar role. Come on you people who know something about medieval warfare, we need your brains!
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L4cus
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by L4cus »

similar to springlads in aoe4?
it would need a good name...
actualy scorpion could be an option since it could have flaming projectiles...dunno its an idea
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Endru1241
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by Endru1241 »

In purely flavour side - there are none specialised anti-siege siege machines.
Every possible siege machine could be used to attack either army, fortifications, ships or other siege machines.
Only changing projectiles depending on target and also with varying effect.

But really - the only solid, true method if enemy siege engines were too much for fortifications was taking battle to the field.
At the very least with cavalry quick strike to deal with insufficiently protected catapults (or more often trebuchets - to be more precise).

In purely balance side - specialised anti-siege ranged unit could give too much of an advantage to defenders, which we don't want to avoid too annoying long defensive battles.

But both something between ballista and catapult would be good and separately some fire specialised siege machine.
For former one - mangonel seems great fit - it would also be funny to have man-powered traction trebuchet costing 6, buildable by siege workshop and even worker, while still not getting rid of monstrous range, unique to megas gravity powered counterweight trebuchet.
Fire catapult would greatly fit hellenic faction (byzantine).

BTW. We already have something prepared exactly for dealing with siege engines behind terrain - ornithopters.
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by L4cus »

sounds interesting!
so hellenic faction is going to have bizantine stuff? dont we alerady have a bizantine spearman?
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by Endru1241 »

Only in map editor.
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by L4cus »

could be added to gymnasium rooster... :roll:
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

OK, forget the suggested specific role then. But yeah, would be good to have something in between those, especially something buildable to increase variety.
Endru1241 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:35 pm But really - the only solid, true method if enemy siege engines were too much for fortifications was taking battle to the field.
Agreed, I made a similar comment elsewhere recently, definitely a lot of adapting to the recent changes still needed on multiplayer.

Endru1241 wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 7:35 pm BTW. We already have something prepared exactly for dealing with siege engines behind terrain - ornithopters.
True, I forgot about ornis. But I don't think many people like them. For me certainly they seem a bit too fantasy-like - was one even built or was it a theoretical machine? To base a strat around something with such tenuous plausibility when so much of the rest of the game is based on historical accuracy (or as close to as possible) just doesn't sit right with me.

So I tend not to use them. As do many others it would seem, they are rather underused. Odd for such a powerful unit (admittedly one that has great weaknesses too) - there may be other reasons, but I feel the general vibe is they don't really belong.
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by b2198 »

Yeah, I also had forgotten about ornithopters, since I mostly only use them when I am already winning in big maps and am too lazy to be moving units over great distances.

I don't mind that much it wasn't actually used back then, only theorized by Da Vinci, since we also have turtle machines, but at least to me, they seem too risky to make, since you not only need 10 turns of specialized research + production to make one, it will also most likely only last for 1 turn in battle if the enemy has at least 1 archer with at least 8 damage (except for I think slingers and yumi samurais, btw, was yumi samurai not having bonuses against flying units intended?), or any fire arrow with at least 7 damage (which fire archers with no upgrades can do due to bonuses), and the only good enough return that I see is winning 1 turn over the opponent by taking out a trebuchet with an ornithopter + high castle attack (or with an ornithopter alone, against unupgraded trebuchets, if you have ranged damage lv1 or better)
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Re: New Unit - anti-siege siege machine (needs a name)

Post by Endru1241 »

Well - ornithopters are only a side note here.
Personally I only used them on huge maps.

Or when having overwhelmingly bigger number of TCs.

If I were to be deciding alone - I'd shift both (along with turtle machine) to be fun units, along with some buff maybe.
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