Poison Spitter

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Hyuhjhih
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Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:15 am

HISTORY
Used by native tribes of Midori. On trespassers approach, chew the flowers of milkweed and ramacham a medicinal root and spines of spuola twig using bare mouth with atmost care. The spine injure the skin and the mixture enter the blood causing irritation inflammation and rashes for sometimes. The victim cannot resist the painful moment and is therefore unarmed and give chance to power ful bows of the tribe.
MY IDEA
A cheap variant of Amazon Blowdart produced in TC . Blent with almost every tile. Easily covertable. Low health and attack. No Armour.
  • hp 5 => 7
  • attack 2 => 4
  • cost 2
armour and resistance nil
  • speed 3
  • ability poison (cooldown 2)
the idea gives a blending image with almost all current terrains, maybe 60% opacity could do work
Basic archer bonus
Last edited by Hyuhjhih on Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:43 am

I don't really understand what you mean by blend with terrain, but if it's supposed yo be any type of stealth/invisibility then it's not balanced.
Bringing any cheap poison unit is quite dangerous for balance and giving it any additional abilities doesn't help.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Morningwarrior » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:32 am

this looks like the lying figure of silent hill 2, or the left 4 dead splitter
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:33 pm

Morningwarrior wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:32 am
this looks like the lying figure of silent hill 2, or the left 4 dead splitter
I have no idea what this means
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:38 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:43 am
I don't really understand what you mean by blend with terrain, but if it's supposed yo be any type of stealth/invisibility then it's not balanced.
Bringing any cheap poison unit is quite dangerous for balance and giving it any additional abilities doesn't help.
No not a stealth unit. I mean, for example, it has no cape, just look like Blowdart and the cloth is colored with 20- 40% transparency. I hope the game engine could support such hexadecimal. So in green planes, most of it body resembles the terrain but still spotable. Its their nature.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:41 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:43 am
and giving it any additional abilities doesn't help
Hyuhjhih wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:15 am
ability heavy shot (cooldown 2)
I hope this wont be a problem
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by ejm29 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:15 pm

I agree with Endru, a cheaper poison unit could be quite troublesome, imagine spamming these!
Maybe they could have a normal, non poisonous attack, and instead of the heavy shot ability, they could do a poisonous shot with a cooldown?
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:58 am

Mm. Ok .
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:58 am

Edited
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:02 am

And the image part , i will work on it once Endru agree hexadecimal with transparency could work well
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:45 am

Oh so image only transparency.
I am a little torn - maybe we can try and check the image inside the game. If it'll look weird opacity could be decreased or partially removed later.

Coming back to main point of discussion- stats and in-game concept:
1. We don't really need cheap poison users. It's often annoying and sometimes too powerful if conditions are right (invested in heavy, slow units, but no healers currently).
Poison has no real counter, because even healers get 1 turn damage from them.
2. Heavy shot is anti- heavy infantry ability. With this - cheap poison user suddenly also becomes opportunistic anti-heavy archer.
3. Did that ingredients even create a poison? I mean what we understand as poison in AoS are deadly toxins, capable of killing .
From the descriptions it seems it would rather represent some debuff.
My proposition:
Change the whole concept - 3 turn archer units with weak defense (no more than 10hp, no armor), slightly stronger bows (5 range, 6 power) and 1 range ability giving "in pain" (- power, -armors ).
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:28 am

Maybe we could limit the number to the number of Archery Range built. So the spam is not a problem
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:32 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:45 am
3.
Yes this poison is already found in cultures of various regions. I did some research on it. It peels of the skin from flesh when applied. Extremely painful ( i haven't tried it yet, and i don't want to)



This is a primitive T3 class poison, equivalent to todays botulin.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:32 pm

How would that be equivalent of botulinum? It's one of the most toxic substances known!
And mainly - the effects are drastically different.
Botulinum toxin is one of the toxins causing muscular paralysis, along with blood coagulation - the most deadly effect of poisons.
It's only thought as relatively weak, because most poisonings are from food - probably the least efficient way to apply botulinum toxin.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:22 am

Hyuhjhih wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:32 am
This is a primitive T3 class poison,
I hope you see primitive. At that time, it is a T3 poison.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:09 am

I have no idea what you mean by t3 class.
I only know that WHO classification (which is similar to EU classification ) sets botulinum toxin as class 1 - extremely toxic.
And even very primitive people had access to similar in toxicity venoms (snake, scorpion, spider, frog) or e.g. curare (made from plants) with respiratory paralysis or blood coagulation as quite fast deadly effect.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:49 am

Ok just leave it. The issue is with different countries we are from. So the same term is expressed differently.

Now what about the unit?
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:13 pm

I am honestly intrigued about different classification.
I thought whole world uses toxicity rating of class 1-3, where class 1 is most deadly (maybe except India - I am not sure if red, yellow, blue labels are also named 1,2,3).

What about unit?
It's still op and I the only point I see is "cheaper poison unit".
Limiting production to factory doesn't change much in spamming tactic - TCs are often occupied by making workers anyway.
New units need to have a role, some niche or just be a variation of existing ones.
Cheap poison unit already exists. Poison archer is cheap enough. It feels it's role. It deals damage even if armor would almost prevent that. Against most common targets for poison units - lower hp or attack barely changes anything. The fact, that it can apply potential 20 damage does.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:39 am

Hyuhjhih wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:15 am
HISTORY
Used by native tribes of Midori. On trespassers approach, chew the flowers of milkweed and ramacham a medicinal root and spines of spuola twig using bare mouth with atmost care. The spine injure the skin and the mixture enter the blood causing irritation inflammation and rashes for sometimes. The victim cannot resist the painful moment and is therefore unarmed and give chance to power ful bows of the tribe.
MY IDEA
A cheap variant of Amazon Blowdart produced in TC . Blent with almost every tile. Easily covertable. Low health and attack. No Armour.
  • hp 5 => 7
  • attack 2 => 4
  • cost 2
armour and resistance nil
  • speed 3
  • ability poison (cooldown 2)
the idea gives a blending image with almost all current terrains, maybe 60% opacity could do work
Basic archer bonus
Changed the poison to ability, cooldown (2)
Or can we add a poison(5=>2) that can deal potentially 7 damage on 2 turn. Well, it would suggest a less potent poison.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:22 am

I don't quite understand.
Can you elaborate about this alternative poison ability?
What damage per turn, how many turn lasts?

I am not sure if it's what you are proposing, but variable damage is unfortunately impossible. Not directly at least.
Any effect can be instant, repetitive (applied every turn), countdown (applied on the end), lasting (for buffs and debuffs - stats return original after effect ends) and what is applied has to be constant (can be multiplied or added to abilityPower).
One effect could also be tied to another and activate it after doing successful appliance, e.g. instant, which on success applies repetitive.

I don't know what is real toxicity of said poison (none of the names, you stated gives anything on google search), but if it can be deadly we could use some other variations of poison, similar to weakness poison (given on attack, when buffed by herbalist). Just to represent something different.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:17 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:22 am
I don't quite understand.
Can you elaborate about this alternative poison ability?
What damage per turn, how many turn lasts?

I am not sure if it's what you are proposing, but variable damage is unfortunately impossible. Not directly at least.
Any effect can be instant, repetitive (applied every turn), countdown (applied on the end), lasting (for buffs and debuffs - stats return original after effect ends) and what is applied has to be constant (can be multiplied or added to abilityPower).
One effect could also be tied to another and activate it after doing successful appliance, e.g. instant, which on success applies repetitive.

I don't know what is real toxicity of said poison (none of the names, you stated gives anything on google search), but if it can be deadly we could use some other variations of poison, similar to weakness poison (given on attack, when buffed by herbalist). Just to represent something different.

Its ok, but it would be bit difficult for now.



New stats

Hp 5
Cost 2
Speed 3
Attack 3
Action 1
Armour 0/0
Ability poison(last 2) cooldown (2)
Max no. of troops = no of archery range owned ( this could work exactly as no. of factories)- limiting would avoid spamming.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:22 am

wikipedia wrote: If it is injected, symptoms commonly begin within 2–4 hours, but may be delayed by up to 36 hours. These include a burning sensation in mouth and throat, skin, abdominal pain, purging and bloody diarrhea. Within several days there is severe dehydration, a drop in blood pressure and a decrease in urine. Unless treated, death can be expected to occur within 3–5 days; however, in most cases a full recovery can be made.
👆spuola twig

Chrysopogon zizanioides 👈ramacham

Milkweed you might know
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:30 am

Hyuhjhih wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:15 am
On trespassers approach, chew the flowers of milkweed and ramacham a medicinal root and spines of spuola twig using bare mouth with atmost care. The spine injure the skin and the mixture enter the blood causing irritation inflammation and rashes for sometimes. The victim cannot resist the painful moment and is therefore unarmed and give chance to power ful bows of the tribe.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:36 pm

Thanks for ramacham biological name - I couldn't find it other way.
Can you also give me Spuola twig one?

Limiting unit number is impossible in the engine right now.

About unit I would like to make sure.
Your proposition is archer with slightly weaker power, regular 5 range, weak hp and ability to poison.
Right?
I'd set it as 4 power, 8 hp.
Could poison ability be casted in melee range only or did they apply it to the arrows?
For melee range I would ability: poison for 3 turns for 3 damage/turn with weakness debuff giving -2 power, -0/1 armor, lasting 1 turn (damage cumulative, debuff not).

For ranged ability I'd set it as 4 range with 4 turn effect, giving 2 damage/turn.

Both versions could be without cooldown.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:29 am

Ok i would prefer ranged one if it is quite balanced .
Should I do the image part now.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Sat Oct 24, 2020 5:36 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 5:36 pm
Can you also give me Spuola twig one?

You might know Caster seeds with high potential poison called riccin. Spuola is the same kind of caster with the same riccin -Beta peptides- contained in its twigs( small stems or branches or even spines). Its actually common in almost all countries but i couldn't yet found its sci.name. its often called spuola twig.
Actually my job is astrophysics computer programming, so there is a limit for me to get involved in bioscience.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:04 am

Topic can be tagged as accepted then.

And on biological divagations: spuola must be then some plant related to Ricinus communis (it's spread to whole Eurasia). As far as I know it's native to India.
So it's combination of Cardiac glycoside ( cardenolide from milkweed) and Agglutination (from ricin).
I am not sure what exact medical property would vetiver root apply, but first two should be enough. It can kill by cardiac arrest.

Ps. Professionally I have been working on simple graphics, IT support, administering systems, networks, programming (mainly ERPs for production) and some simple automatics. All the other fields are purely hobby.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:02 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:04 am
Topic can be tagged as accepted then.

And on biological divagations: spuola must be then some plant related to Ricinus communis (it's spread to whole Eurasia). As far as I know it's native to India.
So it's combination of Cardiac glycoside ( cardenolide from milkweed) and Agglutination (from ricin).
I am not sure what exact medical property would vetiver root apply, but first two should be enough. It can kill by cardiac arrest.

Ps. Professionally I have been working on simple graphics, IT support, administering systems, networks, programming (mainly ERPs for production) and some simple automatics. All the other fields are purely hobby.
Great i could say i am an amateur Astrophysicist currently researching on planet N
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Hyuhjhih » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:42 am

I somewhat made an image. Don't know if you can accept transparency. After i did it, i think it would go nicely with primitive hut.
poison spitter beta-Hyuhjhih.png
poison spitter beta-Hyuhjhih.png (1.36 KiB) Viewed 769 times
Left hand milkweed, right hand ramacham , in bag spoula twig.
Current image is not transparent BTW.
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Re: Poison Spitter

Post by Badnorth » Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:43 am

Poison spitter based on what endru said.
Archer with slightly weaker power but has a poison spit ability.
Attachments
Primitive Poison spitter Archer.png
Primitive Poison spitter Archer.png (1.46 KiB) Viewed 738 times
Something. Something.

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