Skirmisher horseman upgrade IMPLEMENTED

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Badnorth
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Skirmisher horseman upgrade IMPLEMENTED

Post by Badnorth » Tue Sep 22, 2020 1:55 pm

Skirmisher horseman is one of the most underused units of the game. Probably because of its low stats. Skirmisher horseman needs an upgrade to make it more usable.
Elite skirmisher horseman:
Research cost: 5
+ 4 hp
+ 1 att
+ 0/1 armors
+ 1 rng

Upgraded unit description: Better equipment has been given to this skirmishers on mounts making them more useful at skirmishing. Aswell as some proper training, it has Increased stats.
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unit_skirmisher_horseman_elite.png
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Last edited by Badnorth on Wed Oct 14, 2020 7:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:49 pm

Master skirmisher horseman
Research cost: 5
+ 3 hp
+ 1 att
+ 1/1 armors
+ 1 rng

Upgraded unit description: Better trained than its ancestors and has been given upgraded arms making the rider more resilient.

All these techs are researched at archery range.
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unit_skirmisher_horseman_master.png
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:05 am

Original stats and upgrades.
Cost: 4
Hp: 20 (24) (27)
Atk: 5 (6) (7)
Rng: 3 (4) (5)
Armor: 0/4 (0/5) (1/6)
Spd: 6
Sight: 7
Bonuses:
25% Mounted
100% Archers
150% Mounted archers
400% Elephant archers
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:50 am

This version of master skirmisher horseman has armor on the mount.
If it is too much then use the prev one.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:50 am

How about this helmet?
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master skirmisher horsrman rework by hyuhjhih.png
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:02 am

Hyuhjhih wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:50 am
How about this helmet?
Looks too tall. More like a Napoleonic french grenadier hat.
And the helmet decoration isn't bended properly.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:33 am

How about this
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Skirmisher Horseman master reworked by Hyuhjhih.png
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:44 am

Head: lacks shading, too much outline (Try to make the decoration of the helm further from the headgear) and looks more like knight than a skirmisher.
Weapon: Looks like a shovel. Skirmisher horseman uses javelins as a primary weapon.
Shield: Okay. Looks good for a skirmisher shield.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Hyuhjhih » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:54 am

Man . I have been into Unit design a day before. I am only getting used to this . Thanks for remarks and need your hand in this. I will improve
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:45 am

Hyuhjhih wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:54 am
Man . I have been into Unit design a day before. I am only getting used to this . Thanks for remarks and need your hand in this. I will improve
Don't worry, I also started from this. I started this somewhere at may I think. In aof or aod.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:07 am

QuadrupoleStrat wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:05 am
Original stats and upgrades.
Cost: 4
Hp: 20 (24) (27)
Atk: 5 (6) (7)
Rng: 3 (4) (5)
Armor: 0/4 (0/5) (1/6)
Spd: 6
Sight: 7
Bonuses:
25% Mounted
100% Archers
150% Mounted archers
400% Elephant archers
Skirmisher horseman is balanced to elite skirmisher.
If we added two more upgrades it would make it outrageously powerful. Just like your proposed stats.
7 power with 5 range ? We get the same attack as horse archer upg2 with 1 tile range less, but better speed, almost immunity for arrows and bonus vs other archers?

If skirmisher horseman even needs any upgrade - it wouldn't get any additional range.
The deal with skirmishers is to 2shot cheap archers, while taking very little damage from them. Horse skirmisher has the same damage capability as skirmisher master, and with better blacksmith tech boost (fully upgraded it has 14 power vs foot archers and 17 vs mounted, while master skirmisher has 13 vs foot and 18 vs mounted).
So if there would even be an upgrade - only one.
And the stat boost would be +1 power, +1 p.armor and some hp, maybe +1 normal armor too.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:19 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:07 am
If skirmisher horseman even needs any upgrade - it wouldn't get any additional range.
The deal with skirmishers is to 2shot cheap archers, while taking very little damage from them. Horse skirmisher has the same damage capability as skirmisher master, and with better blacksmith tech boost (fully upgraded it has 14 power vs foot archers and 17 vs mounted, while master skirmisher has 13 vs foot and 18 vs mounted).
So if there would even be an upgrade - only one.
And the stat boost would be +1 power, +1 p.armor and some hp, maybe +1 normal armor too.
Ok, no 3rd upgrade needed. I accidentally made the stats quite op so sorry.
Some hp would be 2 or 3 right? Then it is fine. I only thought of skirmisher horseman as a skirmisher on horse so I thought a 3rd upgrade would be needed. Thus they were easily killed by melee units as skirmisher horseman has only 3 rng, no armor and 20 hp (but yes the rng and armor can be boosted via smith upgrades by a maximum of 2).
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 10:34 am

With no melee armor +5 hp would work, +3 with 1 melee armor (to make him barely killable i 2 turns by unspecialized late game melee unit).
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:25 pm

I tried to change it to fit my concept, along with regular, unupgraded version.
Is that OK?
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Hyuhjhih » Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:42 am

Hyuhjhih wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:33 am
Can you change the shield of master as I mentioned cause it look more like master Skirmisher on mount?
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Skirmisher Horseman master reworked by Hyuhjhih.png
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:42 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:25 pm
I tried to change it to fit my concept, along with regular, unupgraded version.
Is that OK?
It looks good.

Maybe using the image in the first post for its upgrade?
Because it looks like it suddenly transformed from level 1 to 3.
Only changing the throwing stance.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by SirPat » Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:30 am

Pls. Dont add much armor on his image he's a light cavalry skirmisher just give him chainmail and dont make his shield metal just wood is enough and dont add horse armor just incase if anyone thaught of it. Honestly his only problem is his hp he needs more hp not p.armor/armor attack or range cause (experienced skirmhorse player) no one can melee fight him because of speed so no armor required. He dont need extra range because how can a javelin weilding man riding a horse have perfect accuracy to hit an enemy such a long range, 3 range is enough plus its the fun part about this unit. You use your skirmhorse to hop around shooting archers thats his strat and having a longer range would make him feel like a horse archer instead. No more power needed because he's cheap and can execute very well attacks on to the enemy archers/horse archers and even cavalry. And having higher p.armor is not good. You see a skirmisher have higher p.armor than a horse archer because when your on foot witha shield its easier to blick arrow fire but when your on a horse with a shield, the enemies could just attack your horse instead of you so my suggestion is to add more hp instead and maybe somekind of ability to make it more cost effective for the upgrade maybe perhaps a transform ability to make him to some kind of spear horseman with medium bonuses to mounted so it wouldnt be a fast to train lancer and maybe a throw poisoned javelin instead to deal with high hp units when skirmishing.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:17 am

The armor and helmet is covered with light metal. It won't be very heavy.
Thus I liked the 1st post image, it would fit more as the upgrade because of its looks.
Imo 3 range is not really enough. Pole arm wielders or heavy cavalry can easily decimate skirmisher horseman due to its range. It needs to get close in order to land a hit.
[/quote]
SirPat wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:30 am
no one can melee fight him because of speed so no armor required.
I disagree with you there. Cavalry and some melee infantry can easily decimate skirmisher horseman due to its range, hp and a low armor 0/4. You can easily get melee infantry to it via Transportation, Slowing terrain or just simply speed buffs given by drummer or bard.
SirPat wrote:
Mon Oct 05, 2020 8:30 am
horse with a shield, the enemies could just attack your horse
It is quite hard to fight a fast and moving horseman with a large wooden shield irl, Reasons are War horses are tough. They can't be easily taken down due to its outstanding muscular body. The large shield can block arrows, Fast moving horses bred for war is difficult to land a blow through melee battles - Pikes were generally used to counter cav charges, Lances needs a cav charge to be effective, Arrows can only weaken a horse but not instantly kill it ( unless with critical hits ). But the point is, it is difficult to land a blow on a fast horse.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by SirPat » Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:42 am

Good points though concerning the melee stuff for me using an army with drummers and using terrain for advancement vs a cheap skirmishing army is just effective because they are specialised and strategised to fight them at that example i meant was if a light cav is chasing a skirmhorse the skirm would win because of speed range and bonus dmg and when fighting foot units swordsmen and alike couldnt chase them and from your example why would anyone fight off skirmhorse with a specialized army like why train drummers and luring them to terrain favorable to their side like thats just an expensive counter strategy wise and why would anyone do a skirmhorse charge without proper terrain mapping i mean the players would fight in a place or way favorable to their side. A skirmhorse cost about 4 turns yet really squishy then the enemy would waste their time training a larger army to counter them using mass swarming for infantry and terrain utilization and even more strategic thinking to counter? Players dont just do that cause in that way of countering its more impactful negatively in your time and economy. Sorry I cant ecplain my self properly but this is my point skirmhorse are too cheap too expend too much to counter them which means skirmhorses are effective against those melee men and is not that much likely to get sword swinged at the face.

concerning the pikes well for me it shows that its hard to offend a pike group with skirmishing tactics but they get archer upgrades to compensate reaching until 3+2 range because of upgrades.

then i suggest only one upgrade as of now and only add 4-5hp +1/1 armor and +1 range only
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:05 am

I see no problem dealing with skirmisher horseman. Lancers, war dogs, axe throwers and light cavalry are some of the examples to easily kill it. They are only good for dealing archers. Basically a second hand skirmisher, too weak against other units besides archers because all units has a certain counter. Though, I can just say they are too weak in terms of defense and base power despite costing double than the epic skirmishers I use every match ( Most ). A mere swordsman can kill an unupgraded skirmisher horseman In close-combat because of skirmisher horseman's low range.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Badnorth » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:07 am

I don't remember a player I fought using skirmisher horseman. Skirmisher and its upgrades already has a great advantages than it. Thats what makes its horseman variant underused. Though it seems endru doesn't plan a third upgrade which is sad.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by SirPat » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:53 pm

Having a third upgrade is too overkill for the skirmhorse.
So upgrade stats would be?
For me
+4-5hp
+1 dmg
+1 range
+1/1 armor
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by Endru1241 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:19 pm

@SirPat Have you read carefully discussion between me and QuadrupoleStrat?
We reached consensus of only 1 upgrade with +1 power, +1/1 armors and +3hp.
As you noticed yourself range increase is not really needed and could be overkill. What skirmisher horseman really needed was this little bit to make it competitive to elite horseman archer (3rd one), it was already balanced towards 1st upgrades in the very start.
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Re: Skirmisher horseman upgrade

Post by SirPat » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:15 pm

Oh my bad i must have skipped a few messages I was sleepy when I was reading it I read it again this time and yeah sorry I didnt noticed.
Ok what else is needed for this to be applied?
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