Mangudai: upgrade of mongolian horseman

[godOfKings]

@Endru1241

Mangudai are the fearsome horse archers of the mongolian empire that were known for their speed and ruthless raids

Upgrade from: mongolian horseman

Tech cost: 6
Cost: 4
Hp: 25
Atk: 6
Range: 4
Action: 2
Armor: 1/1
Speed: 6
Sight: 6
Mental resist: 100%
Bonus same as mongolian horseman

[b2198]

If this is a 3-step upgrade line, I think the range should be kept at 4 for this one and only increased with the third upgrade, and a tiny increase to armor would probably be good too, like 0/1 or so.

If it's a 2-step one, then I think their durability should be higher, like 26 hp and 1/1 armor.

Also since mongolian horseman cant b made in tc and only available in factories, so let them get buffs from both blacksmith archer upgrades

That's not a thing anymore since 1.149, with the rework of ranged techs, no?

Also nice image : D

[godOfKings]

[Edited] Ok just checked map editor and i guess it was changed and mongol horseman can benefit from both lvl of blacksmith techs so everything i said here is obsolete

And i m not really thinking about 2nd upgrade cause then horse archer would b obsolete, and i dont want to increase armor and hp cause i want it to benefit from blacksmith techs without being too op, it will focus on speed and range and if u want to focus on durability then make yabusame instead

With upgraded stats, its dmg and range will b as effective as bushido buffed yumi samurai, although with tengri blessing it can outrange yumi samurai with 8 range

[b2198]

And i m not really thinking about 2nd upgrade cause then horse archer would b obsolete, and i dont want to increase armor and hp cause i want it to benefit from blacksmith techs without being too op, it will focus on speed and range and if u want to focus on durability then make yabusame instead

Horse archer is already obsolete though, and has been for a long time as far as I can tell. Probably needs a direct buff instead of nerfing other mounted archers. And yabusame doesn't have an upgrade, so mangudai SHOULD be slightly better than them, due to the extra tech cost involved for upgrading.

With upgraded stats, its dmg and range will b as effective as bushido buffed yumi samurai, although with tengri blessing it can outrange yumi samurai with 8 range

Won't they both have 8 range?
Yumi: 6 + 2 -> 8
Mangudai: 5 + 1 + 2 -> 8

[godOfKings]

But yabusame is much slower with 4 speed, its like the ranged version of shield knight, while mangudai can escape with 7 speed, as for whether horse archer is obsolete or not depends on the size of maps, on large maps with many tcs, upgraded horse archers can b spammed in tcs and factories while mangudai can only b made in dedicated factories, so its faster to fill the void of archer in army composition with horse archers than mangudai, and maxed horse archer without buff can deal 10 dmg

[DreJaDe]

I don't know the core of what both of you are talking about but...

Japanese bow are known for their short range but powerful shot.

Now add also the fact that Yabusame is a mounted archer and we now have an even shorter range. I don't think they should have 8 range cause if I remember, that's the same range as most archers when fully upgraded.

[godOfKings]

Well this topic isnt about balancing japanese archers, its about finalising stat of mongolian horseman upgrade

B2198 wants it to have more armor and hp but i dont, cuz if u consider tengri weakening poison, it can already deal a fix 6 dmg from poison spam beside the base dmg from arrows, and both tengri blessings can give him additional p.armor so even at 0 p.armor, it will have some defense against enemy archers when buffed by tengri shaman

[godOfKings]

I guess i could settle for an in-between with 25 hp and 1/ 0 armor

[godOfKings]

@Endru1241 did u check this post?

[Endru1241]

Endru1241 did u check this post?

Yes, I have read the topic back then.

I honestly wonder if increasing their range is good.
Thanks to the buffs from Tengri Shaman they already have absolutely longest total range of attack among all units in game.
6 + 1 speed and 4 + 2 + 1 attack range = 14 total range

Comparing to others:
horse archer:
5 speed and 6 + 2 attack range = 13 total range
yabusame:
4 speed and 5 + 2 attack range = 11 total range
longbowman:
3 + 1 speed and 7 + 2 attack range = 13 total range
saethwr:
3 + 2 speed and 5 + 2 attack range = 12 total range
viking archer:
3 + 2 speed and 6 + 2 ability range = 13 total range

So maybe increasing attack, hp and armors would be enough.
Or getting inspiration from AOE - some sort of bonus against siege machines?
On the other hand then I wonder if starting with upgrades scheme for steppe culture is actually the right way.
Maybe tech increase would be better as it affects all units of category?

[b2198]

Bonuses against siege machine for them might be too much imo, since they're already some of the best units in the game for dealing with flesh and blood units in general. Their counter is precisely hiding units in siege towers/mantlets so that they don't get double-weakening-poison'ed along with 4 minimum damage from normal attack damage + tengri blessing weapon effect.

It might be good to have in the game a few archers that are able to deal a significant damage to siege machines, and the ones we currently have (fire archer, viking archer and cretan archer) are kinda lacking in that department, especially if you include armored siege machines in the comparison, but steppe is already too dependent on mongolian horsemen, so I don't think making them even more versatile would be good for their other units. Though I think the idea of making that a cultural strength could work if it was given only to their melee units. Maybe even with some new buff by tengri that needs researching to use?

I honestly wonder if increasing their range is good.
Thanks to the buffs from Tengri Shaman they already have absolutely longest total range of attack among all units in game.
6 + 1 speed and 4 + 2 + 1 attack range = 14 total range

Forgot to take speed into consideration when thinking about their range. Yeah, that also might be too much.

[DreJaDe]

Arent mongol archers a barracks type exclusive unit?

Seems not that much unfair to me given also the cost.

[godOfKings]

not to mention the tech itself cost 6 turn so by the time u have upgraded mangudai enemy would also set up defense towers or only advance with armored siege units so mangudai speed wouldnt b much factor in overall performance then... even a single upgraded skirmisher with archer behind makes mongol horseman useless even with poison so higher range late game would improve its survivability

the main thing about speed in meta is that if an archer can survive the first turn it committed in attacking enemy player, next turn it can definitely escape in all sorts of ways, b it horse archer speed or infantry acrher with wagon behind, and if the player who is getting attacked uses an ambush, for example wagon skirmisher/wagon pikeman, then no archer can survive no matter the speed, so its really hard to put speed into the game as a factor, only factor with big effect is higher speed can dodge some siege attacks

[b2198]

not to mention the tech itself cost 6 turn so by the time u have upgraded mangudai enemy would also set up defense towers or only advance with armored siege units so mangudai speed wouldnt b much factor in overall performance then... even a single upgraded skirmisher with archer behind makes mongol horseman useless even with poison so higher range late game would improve its survivability

I disagree, if they attack first, they can kill the skirmisher + archer (and only barely losing hp, depending on buffs, auras and techs), because of the damage reduction of the weakening poison, which takes A LOT of the skirmisher's damage (2 hits reduce 4 damage, so if they had 6+2 = 8 base damage (I'm assuming a master skirmisher here), they will now have 6+2-4 = 4 base damage, a reduction of 50% in the first turn, and same goes for their bonus damage, also cut in half. Also, regardless of armor, a buffed mongolian horseman will kill a master skirmisher on the second turn of poison with just 2 attacks (if they're not healed before the second turn, of course), so they most likely just need 2 turns, and to survive 1 skirmisher shot with ~half the damage, 1 archer shot at full damage and 1 archer shot with reduced damage (and with their above-average p. armor for a cavalry archer when buffed).

the main thing about speed in meta is that if an archer can survive the first turn it committed in attacking enemy player, next turn it can definitely escape in all sorts of ways, b it horse archer speed or infantry acrher with wagon behind, and if the player who is getting attacked uses an ambush, for example wagon skirmisher/wagon pikeman, then no archer can survive no matter the speed, so its really hard to put speed into the game as a factor, only factor with big effect is higher speed can dodge some siege attacks

That's mostly an issue with wagons themselves, no? Though yeah, range is superior to speed in most cases, but speed is still very important in less populated areas of the map, like in a front that has just started to be used by both sides, in most of the early skirmishes, and in unexplored areas in larger maps, so I wouldn't discard it entirely. Plus speed + range is also very important when sacrificing units to kill important targets, like an inquisitor, senator, or sometimes even a lone builder working on a fort in a strategic position.

(on a sidenote, not everyone can coordinate wagons as well as you, so there's also that XD)

[Endru1241]

Wagons are too good.
Unfortunately my attempts to change that was thwarted.
Which btw. also made me loose a lot of willpower towards AoS changes.

I'll try to at least get them to have 2 carry cap initially and only get back to 3 with an upgrade.
Although it doesn't change the main issue of instant move with line of wagons in buildings and only very slightly lessens ambush capability.

Coming back to mangudai - the name could also be used to bring another unique steppe unit, e.g. with some special ability or stats.
I hoped someone would comment on:

On the other hand then I wonder if starting with upgrades scheme for steppe culture is actually the right way.
Maybe tech increase would be better as it affects all units of category?

As that is what I am mainly wondering about.
Because honestly - if we bring mongol horseman upgrade, then that still leaves others (e.g. cuman) subpar.

I am thinking for some time already to reduce number of upgrades or at least initially decrease their cost along with adding some common requirements. And maybe later on if engine would allow that - to auto-grant some techs along with other ones.
That's why I am reluctant to add new ones.

[b2198]

Wagons are too good.
Unfortunately my attempts to change that was thwarted.
Which btw. also made me loose a lot of willpower towards AoS changes.

I'll try to at least get them to have 2 carry cap initially and only get back to 3 with an upgrade.
Although it doesn't change the main issue of instant move with line of wagons in buildings and only very slightly lessens ambush capability.

Will try to find that post again and go back to searching for some other alternative solution we might have not considered yet.

Coming back to mangudai - the name could also be used to bring another unique steppe unit, e.g. with some special ability or stats.
I hoped someone would comment on:

On the other hand then I wonder if starting with upgrades scheme for steppe culture is actually the right way.
Maybe tech increase would be better as it affects all units of category?

As that is what I am mainly wondering about.
Because honestly - if we bring mongol horseman upgrade, then that still leaves others (e.g. cuman) subpar.

I am thinking for some time already to reduce number of upgrades or at least initially decrease their cost along with adding some common requirements. And maybe later on if engine would allow that - to auto-grant some techs along with other ones.
That's why I am reluctant to add new ones.

Oh, I misunderstood then. I read it as if it was a tech to give bonuses vs siege machines for all steppe units.

I think it's a great idea to make techs that affect the culture (or significant parts of it) in general, and not just 1 unit, so I agree on that here. Would it be something like an increase to stats of all steppe units, similarly to those 2 techs we have for celts and primitives?

And maybe later on if engine would allow that - to auto-grant some techs along with other ones.

This is the main requirement for Age Techs to be implemented, right?

[godOfKings]

On one hand wagon is good on the otherhand i might b sacrificing workers spam and early factories so mid game i would have lower troops than enemy if i dont keep border tcs, not to mention they get to make forts and other defenses faster than me

[godOfKings]

I summon u, b reborn, now depending on golden horde hp increase, the final stat of mangudai will b determined, either 30 or 31 hp in end game