Springald

[Hyuhjhih]

A Springald, or espringal, is a mechanical artillery device for throwing large bolts and less commonly stones or Greek fire. It is depicted in a diagram in an 11th-century Byzantine manuscript, but in Western Europe is more evident in the late 12th century and early 13th century. It was constructed on the same principles as a Greek or Roman ballista, but with inward swinging arms. It was also known as a 'skein-bow', and was a torsion device using twisted skeins of silk or sinew to power two bow-arms.

Built in the war land , these average durable structures made of rocks proved excellent in providing a temporary cover for army. Equiped with bolts, the ballista pierce through the toughest armors, where the pelting stones injured several enemy soldiers. The ranged forces sometimes use this place to gain higher ground and shoot arrows over longer distances.

Hp 30
Att 0
Arm 3/8
Act 5
MR 150%
Constr bonus 0%
Mend bonus 50%
Carry cappacity 1
Heal 4hp
Units can attack while garrisoned.
Units cannot use abilities while garrisoned.


Active effects
Higher ground
+1range effect ranged, rng 0


Abilities
Throw stones
-2 hp, cd_

Piercing Bolt
-8hp, ignore enemy armor, cd 3

Built by elite workers only.
Req. To elite workers

Categories: buildings, burnables, healing building,

[Hyuhjhih]

[Morningwarrior]

would that kind of be the predecessor of the correct ballista ?, the resistance of the tower and well, small I would say, and I was amazed by 5 actions, was it really a tower or some kind of exclusive defensive structure of siege and bombing camps?

[Hyuhjhih]

would that kind of be the predecessor of the correct ballista ?, the resistance of the tower and well, small I would say, and I was amazed by 5 actions, was it really a tower or some kind of exclusive defensive structure of siege and bombing camps?

Sort of. From description it is some sort of protected ballista, though cheap and less efficient, it did its work well.

Actually, since it have no basic att, and the bolt is with a brief cooldown, its main weaponry is the cheap pelting of stones, with only 2 att, 5 act seems reasonable.

[Hyuhjhih]

Slight changes in stats


Hp
Att 0
Arm 3/8
Act 5
MR 150%
Constr bonus 0%
Mend bonus 50%
Carry cappacity 1
Heal 4》6 hp
Units can attack while garrisoned.
Units cannot use abilities while garrisoned.


Active effects
Higher ground
+1》2 range effect ranged, rng 0


Abilities
Throw stones
-2 》-3 hp, rng 5, cd_

Piercing Bolt
-8》-10 hp, ignore enemy armor, rng 7, cd 3

Built by elite workers only.
Req. To elite workers

Categories: buildings, burnables, healing building,

[Endru1241]

As far as I know there are virtually no differences between balista and springald in functioning.
One thing that could be assumed is that, it could have been slightly sturdier or cheaper to construct, because of frame.
But they use exactly the same physics and materials for main mechanism.
It's just that balista disappeared somewhere along with Rome or slightly later. Or was not mentioned enough, so probably used very rarely.
One possible explanation to such thing is costs per soldier, that was deployed by governing forces. Feudalism was cheap in that department (mainly because feudal rulers had nowhere near the funds of ancient governing bodies).
So appearance of springald in sources for 12/13 century would indicate either drastic increase in wealth sacrificed for army and/or those machines being cheaper than balista.
In first case exact construction of it could be related to little different thinking of engineers and work/cost exactly the same.

Either way it's a little hard to be placed in the game, if we tried to preserve historical accuracy (although honestly balista breaks it a little).

So, concentrating on balance and stats fitting to image:
- range bonus is absolutely out - if such tower would bring +1, then fortress would ask for like +3 and archers range is already enough. +2 is simply ridiculous.
- those "meager" 3 power attacks x5 with garrisoned keep make 20 damage against unarmored units, not to even mention great finishing capability, so it would have very interesting and quite strong use, but would have to be longer to build than shooting tower
- solid damage ability - a little too versatile along with multiple attacks - I'd say one or the other. Ignoring armor is out. Armor piercing specialty is represented by bonuses well enough.
And I don't plan to give full armor ignore to any ranged unit ever.
Summing up: let's make it cheaper balista tower with 1 attack and lower hp. Maybe shifted to higher range and no miss, but without area attack.

[godOfKings]

Wat if a special building unique to roman engineers since it was preserved by Byzantine? Similar to scorpio

[Endru1241]

Would need another name.
Although there is a mention of it in byzantic sources from 11th century - it was only an image.
Name is strictly european.

Also there is huge chance, that it was newly created idea of that time, so it probably never existed in roman times.

[Morningwarrior]

Would need another name.
Although there is a mention of it in byzantic sources from 11th century - it was only an image.
Name is strictly european.

Also there is huge chance, that it was newly created idea of that time, so it probably never existed in roman times.

What exactly would that siege machine be or a defense tower?

[Hyuhjhih]

Endru, you are incredibly rooted to history. Wow. I have friend with identical passion on history, most of the historical troops i proposed here is with his reference. So can i ask by anyway your actual name is James Andrew(if so you know me as sparks), else leave it.

Btw, images, i dived into few, you r right, there isn't much of it.

[Hyuhjhih]

The thingy is ofcourse the ballista itself. But was longer and was mounted on a tower.

The bolt i hope won't be a problem sine it has a brief cooldown and can ensure it is not used frequently. Just a single shot in 3 turns. Or maybe using the ability consumes 5 act, so additional stones are not available in the turn.

The stone damage i 5think is good when capped at 2 dmg. How about 3 dmg with 3 act?

With the bare 30 hp, it is almost hard shoted by any infantry.

The pierce, if it is so concerned about historical notes, since it is longer, it has enough gain to pierce any armor for sure.

And I don't plan to give full armor ignore to any ranged unit ever.

Atleast you can consider it now.
Since bonuses are highly specific, it is a straight forward way if armour ignore is added

Aura: how about making it thrower specific like for axe throwers,slingers and javelin throwers like skirmishers. Its obvious that they might have dreamt of gaining a higher ground.

Since the hp is too low when compared with shooting tower and ballista tower on behalf of the potential "finishing power " it is balanced i think.

[Hyuhjhih]

What exactly would that siege machine be or a defense tower?

A siege tower or defense machine

[Morningwarrior]

What exactly would that siege machine be or a defense tower?

A siege tower or defense machine

Looks very useful!i like,this can be the new weapon for morninhay

[Endru1241]

Nope.
It's not my name.

About history, I'll uncover something - I hated it in school.
I gained a little curiosity about some singular topics in my early twenties and it expanded to be one of main hobbies few years later. Still - I am only reading about things that, at particular time, I am interested in. I am no expert.

Going back to main topic - you seem to forget each (or at least most) elements have to fullfill base rules of good TBS game:
- Good concept - either fitting for theme and/or complementing something
- Moderate dose of simplicity - a lot of games were ruined by overly time-consumming micromanagement, a lot is meh or weak because of oversimplication. Additionally quite a lot have too unpredictable elements, which can break whole strategy/tactics
- Specific balance - either concentrated around fun (or challenging) single player games or strictly balanced to equal chances multiplier play

The idea here lacks in each of these departments.
-The concept is unclear.
Weak defensively tower which can do 3 different things.
Or as I see it "be awesome".
-I see absolutely no reason why it has 0 attack and 2 active abilities.
3 specialties along with normal for tower hiding, healing and space compression for units doesn't help in simplicity
-HP itself is not enough for ranged unit (even unmoving, like tower) to be balanced. Sudden increase of range and damage for slingers wouldn't be balanced even if we made it have only 1 hp.

[Hyuhjhih]

Ah, the Endru sounded a nick for Andrew.

Ok will try to bring few changes in it.

Hp 60
Att 4
Range 5
Arm 0/6
Act 2
MR 125%
CC 1 (can garrison foot)
Heal 6
Constr bonus 20%(5 turns in normal)
Mend bonus 50%

Units can attack while garrisoned.
Units cannot use abilities while garrisoned.

Ignore Pierce Armour

Constraining into a lower ballista tower with armour ignore and pin point accuracy but lacking area damage and one third of its normal potential

[Endru1241]

Now it's more clear.

The only questions remaining is if it should require ballistics or maybe other techs and how long should it take to build (with ambidexteria).

[Hyuhjhih]

why would it need ballistics since we make ballista without it, or should it, since ballista tower needs it? Its a tricky question honestly.
Wanna open a poll or do the testing in balancing ?

If the 5 turn with bonus 20% is fair enough, then the ambidextria add 5mend.
So with bonus calculated it results in 4 turn(reasonable )
It will outperform *in cost* the heavy slinger tower except the inability to built in hills and melee damage(while it ignores armour). Imho, the slinger tower is weak for its worth$$.

[Morningwarrior]

Nope.
It's not my name.

About history, I'll uncover something - I hated it in school.
I gained a little curiosity about some singular topics in my early twenties and it expanded to be one of main hobbies few years later. Still - I am only reading about things that, at particular time, I am interested in. I am no expert.

Going back to main topic - you seem to forget each (or at least most) elements have to fullfill base rules of good TBS game:
- Good concept - either fitting for theme and/or complementing something
- Moderate dose of simplicity - a lot of games were ruined by overly time-consumming micromanagement, a lot is meh or weak because of oversimplication. Additionally quite a lot have too unpredictable elements, which can break whole strategy/tactics
- Specific balance - either concentrated around fun (or challenging) single player games or strictly balanced to equal chances multiplier play

The idea here lacks in each of these departments.
-The concept is unclear.
Weak defensively tower which can do 3 different things.
Or as I see it "be awesome".
-I see absolutely no reason why it has 0 attack and 2 active abilities.
3 specialties along with normal for tower hiding, healing and space compression for units doesn't help in simplicity
-HP itself is not enough for ranged unit (even unmoving, like tower) to be balanced. Sudden increase of range and damage for slingers wouldn't be balanced even if we made it have only 1 hp.

it seems that you have a lot of history to tell elder
I will write down these rules so that my next topics are better and more effective, both for the game and for gameplay