Tech to enable Mercs IMPLEMENTED

[phoenixffyrnig]

For low cost units, I feel Mercenaries are too OP at the start of the game. Pretty much the only effective way to counter early game is to counter-Merc , weather you want to use them or not. (I do use other ways to counter, but this is normally only effective against an unbalanced Merc army - fully balanced, it would be very difficult).

And as for the poor noobs who don't even have mercs yet....

I suggest off-setting this imbalance by having to research a tech before being able to recruit mercs.
I'm open to ideas or suggestions about pretty much everything, because this is only a vague idea as of yet...

It could be called something like economics or banking to reflect the necessity of payment, or simply just Mercenaries, or anything else.
I feel it should be at least 5 turns cost so it's a risk for the reward
It should probably be research-able in TCs only, (my original thoughts were from TCs, Barracks, Archery Range or Stables, but TC only would represent more of a challenge).
Hmm, maybe 4 turn cost if TC only, 6 turn cost is available at all four. I'm undecided - but that's my suggestion, let me know what you think.

[Badnorth]

For low cost units, I feel Mercenaries are too OP at the start of the game. Pretty much the only effective way to counter early game is to counter-Merc , weather you want to use them or not. (I do use other ways to counter, but this is normally only effective against an unbalanced Merc army - fully balanced, it would be very difficult).

And as for the poor noobs who don't even have mercs yet....

I suggest off-setting this imbalance by having to research a tech before being able to recruit mercs.
I'm open to ideas or suggestions about pretty much everything, because this is only a vague idea as of yet...

It could be called something like economics or banking to reflect the necessity of payment, or simply just Mercenaries, or anything else.
I feel it should be at least 5 turns cost so it's a risk for the reward
It should probably be research-able in TCs only, (my original thoughts were from TCs, Barracks, Archery Range or Stables, but TC only would represent more of a challenge).
Hmm, maybe 4 turn cost if TC only, 6 turn cost is available at all four. I'm undecided - but that's my suggestion, let me know what you think.

I support this. Mercenaries are overpowered on small maps e.g 20x20, 15x15 so a tech to make c them would be nice.

[Endru1241]

Writing maybe?
This way it would at least have some use apart of some very specific setups.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Could be, but I feel it needs a higher cost to make up for the fact that these low cost units can go toe to toe with tier 3 upgrades in many cases, and eat tier 1s for breakfast.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Also wonder if it might be better to have it not gifted as part of the start techs enabled lot.

[Endru1241]

So?
They all have leaving - needs payment to stay. It's great disadvantage almost completely removing them from being long term best for cost army.
Unlike upgraded units.
E.g. varangian and routier have exactly the same stats as 3rd units in their respective lines - so they become obsolete, once man-at-arms and master skirmisher are researched. Many others become outperformed stats/cost by similar non-mercenary units.
The only thing they do have is their initial power and in some cases - shorter training time.
If mercenaries would additionally require too long of a research it completely nerfs them. Maybe even to the point of being unusable.
If they have tech requirement - it should be quite cheap or researched anyway. Just to limit starting game use of mercs.
And absolutely it needs to be part of "all techs" - they allow gunpowder units, powerful towers and siege machines - enough to overcome mercs (with advantage I'd say).
So to say it in another way - mine "maybe" was rather wondering if it's not too much.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Yeah, points taken re Start Techs, and leaving (in long term at least, though in short term at the start of the game i dont think this matters, they can easily do enough damage to make them worth the 2 (or 3) cost before they leave). Perhaps a lower cost than I originally suggested would be better.

The only thing they do have is their initial power and in some cases - shorter training time.

This seems to be the point we definitely agree on - to be able to pump out many mercs when their equivalents take 12 turns of research early game is the only problem I feel. I have no desire to make them of less value, just to avoid that scenario.

As I said in my original post, it was just a vague idea and I was wanting other people's input and counterpoints (Hegelian dialectic) - I freely and happily acknowledge that you have much more knowledge than me about the game and balancing issues - I'm an ideas man, not so good with the details

[Squirrel5555]

It is an interesting idea.

I don't feel like I can say anything more haha

[Endru1241]

Phoenix - that's all we do here.
To discuss, to give observations, opinions, help with something and sometimes get helped - thats pretty much the whole point of a community forum.

My observation from many different games is: overbuffing and overnerfing are very common (well there are also those games where barely ever anything changes, but that's not the point).
I never really know what exact reaction any balance changes will do. I only try to consider as many aspects as possible and compare. Compare constantly to anything that could be used similarily and was used in the past.
Not very long ago mercenaries were underused.
They just didn't get their own role.
That's why I am conservative in the topics concerning ny nerfs to them.

[phoenixffyrnig]

That's your great strength @Endru1241 - you see almost instantly the effects, counter-effects, after-effects and side-effects it would take the rest of us weeks of game play to realise.

Rock on man!

[Badnorth]

That's your great strength @Endru1241 - you see almost instantly the effects, counter-effects, after-effects and side-effects it would take the rest of us weeks of game play to realise.

Rock on man!

Totally true