Cataphract as new unit IMPLEMENTED

[Badnorth]

My proposition is:
Cost: 6
Hp: 40
Att: 10
Spd: 4
Armor: 7/3
Sight: 4
Spell resist :
heal bonus : 2.0
resist 100%
Bonuses:
40% vs foot melee, ranged, siege siege

Whats the difference between spell resist and resist ?

[L4cus]

My proposition is:
Cost: 6
Hp: 40
Att: 10
Spd: 4
Armor: 7/3
Sight: 4
Spell resist :
heal bonus : 2.0
resist 100%
Bonuses:
40% vs foot melee, ranged, siege siege

Whats the difference between spell resist and resist ?

there is no difference

[Badnorth]

If this were to be implemented with talked stats my voulgier or berserkers would prove useless in an occasion lol.Poison archers,ornithopters and mounted-lancer units should be an efficient counter.other than that I can't think of a counter except high damaging ranged units or hit multiple times by a pole-arm wielder.

[L4cus]

2 pikemen should be able to kill it (after reach researched)

[Badnorth]

Im worried about the heal bonus .

[Endru1241]

If this were to be implemented with talked stats my voulgier or berserkers would prove useless in an occasion lol.Poison archers,ornithopters and mounted-lancer units should be an efficient counter.other than that I can't think of a counter except high damaging ranged units or hit multiple times by a pole-arm wielder.

Im worried about the heal bonus .

Berserker is not supposed to be very strong against mounted units and yet - in berserk state it would deal 13 damage to cataphract.
Voulgier is more logical concern, as it's main use is being anti-mounted. Without any bonuses he would deal only 3 *2 damage.
Upgraded one - 7*2.
Of course it changes greatly with bonuses - blacksmith +2 makes it 7*2 and 9*2.
So upgraded endgame vouglier would need 3 turns to finish cataphract. And couldn't even overcome one healer support from behind.
If we toned down bonuses decrease on slow charge heavy cavalry from +105% to +140% it would become:
5*2 -> 9*2 and after blacksmith - 9*2 -> 14*2
If we removed bonuses decrease on slow charge heavy cavalry (currently +160% to all mounted) it would become:
6*2 -> 11*2 and after blacksmith - 11*2 -> 16*2
Meanwhile spearman line deals:
9 -> 13 -> 17, after blacksmith: 17 -> 21 -> 24

The best fast counter (most damage) seems to be flailmen - 3 turns and straight up 24 damage to them (15 power, ignore armor and +60% vs heavy cavalry).
And all those anti-heavy crossbow users would be best for safe damage, e.g. pavaise crossbowman - 8 damage (11 when deployed), genoese - 11, upg. horse crossbow can even outmanoeuvre cataphract and deals 8. They aLSO increase when adding blacksmith techs.

That would make him tanky to similar level as hoplite - hard to counter in the start, but soon with better techs - it doesn't pose a problem.

[Badnorth]

I see, thanks . I use berserker to deal with everything especially when there is a bard nearby they are my ultimate combo . Berserker with battle song kills a hoplite in 2 attacks.
Thanks for the explanation I now realized that I'll have to change my play style..if I don't I'll lose multiplayer games .

[Badnorth]

Edited.

Cataphract.png (1.62 KiB) Viewed 2939 times

[godOfKings]

Doesnt look clear, either make rider, or make horse armor look lighter

[Badnorth]

Doesnt look clear, either make rider, or make horse armor look lighter

[Morningwarrior]

well, on the catafracts for my research they were cavalry that were more in the reserve and were used more to finish the enemies since my research was that the catafracts were not as fast and used as shock cavalry.
Hp:34
Atk:12/6
Armor:3/2
Spd:5
Rng:1
Act:1
Cost:5
S.R:40%
Heal bonus:1.5
Ability:swap weapon to lance
Same bonuses to a normal knight but he have 60% to all
And
Same bonus to a knight lancer but he have 30% gains melee foot and archers.

[godOfKings]

for that, we need a sword image

[Hyuhjhih]

while on other hand cataphract were cheap mounted unit, often unarmored and lightly armed by common swords or spears. While the main cavalry were instinct with leading attacks, the cataphracts were different in a way as they remained among the support army, the long range archers ofcourse and other precious siege sights to guard them from sneaking fire placers.

Guys i found a historical ref which would suggest the actual status of what so called cataphract are much lower in real.

[godOfKings]

I dont understand wat exactly is the role here

[godOfKings]

How about make it cost 4 but make it recruitable only in the new suggested roman mega castle?

[Hyuhjhih]

How about a cheap shielded unit with moderate hp and att.

Cost 3(4,6@ stable)
Hp 18(22,26)
Att 5(7,9)
Arm 2/6(3/6,3/7)
Speed 4(4,5)
Bonus
100% archers
70% melee foot

Trained at TC , stable

[L4cus]

i dislike cavalry with a tone of p armour and armour improved by middle age, so i dont think is pretty balanced/reallistic. btw cataphracts were elite units and expensive to form (training all covered in armour was not easy)
so my sugestion is a 4 turns unit, though i would prefer it as a 5 turns unit but since its an ancient unit i think 4 turns is ok (like ancient knights):
cost 4
hp 35
attack 9
range 1
armour 3/2
speed 4
sight 6
bonuses:
+50% vs foot
+75% vs heavy foot melee, not, polearm wielder
+100% vs siege machine
+150% vs heavy siege machine

produced at: hellenic structure (when it comes), stable

Btw i think all acient units should be affected by first tier blacksmith upgrades, this would not include primitive and celts could get the first armour and attack for foot melee units (they made the chainmail armour so that would be a reference, and not all celtic units would be affected i think), the other option is to have specific techs for each faction to improve their units a little to be more efficent at middle game (like the roman techs i sugested, and some hellenic unique techs like torax armour or linothorax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax ) well this deserve another topic, but meeeee

[Hyuhjhih]

I just suggested what it was in

while on other hand cataphract were cheap mounted unit, often unarmored and lightly armed by common swords or spears. While the main cavalry were instinct with leading attacks, the cataphracts were different in a way as they remained among the support army, the long range archers ofcourse and other precious siege sights to guard them from sneaking fire placers.

Guys i found a historical ref which would suggest the actual status of what so called cataphract are much lower in real.

[godOfKings]

Actualy i saw another historical reference were cataphracts were used as main shock troopers, the most elite of the cavalry in the army. Cataphract was derived from the greek word kataphractas that means covered in armor, so it is for armored horsemen

On the other hand, not all nations were prosperous by same amount and the more prosporous nations use fully armored elite cataphracts while most other nations that used the same idea after fighting enemy cataphracts could afford half armored (armor covering only front half of horse) or cheaper cataphracts, the elite heavy armored cataphracts were expensive and precious resources of warfare that would not be used in every random skirmish

But aos is not so poor to not b able to recruit them

[Endru1241]

Actually, effectiveness of any shock cavalry in ancient times were severely limited - lack of stirrups and much less stable (or even lack of) saddle would mean less stability - ergo - much less possibilities for an attack (decreased even more with more speed) and weaker attacks overall.
As far as I know - best armored cataphracts were indeed covered in full armor, along with horse.
But there is a catch - it doesn't make very effective heavy cavalry unit.
Not in medieval sense of that category - mass of man and horses charging and breaking through formations with great impact and speed.

On the contrary - if you put armor on some places of horse legs - it cannot even run. There is also a theory, that dark ages selective breeding and getting horses mix with some steppe ones only made them strong enough to be proper war horses.
There is few written accounts of cataphracts using ranged weapons (all about bows if I remember right) and there is also interesting text from roman historian describing how they managed to deal with "invulnerable to both arrows and spears" parthian cataphracts - they just picked them one by one, surrounding and trying to threw them from horses or take apart armors or keeping distance and making them tire horses.
So parthian (and probably most of scythian) cataphracts were more of tanks, than shock troopers - slowly but steady going forward and being great as a central point of the front. But needing support to not fall to ambushes, surrounding, outnumbering.

Meanwhile - ancients were the same humans as us today. So they could have used word cataphract for any armored cavalry, just like some nations use word tank for barely armored vehicles with anti-tank cannon (as long as they fit other criteria, e.g. proper rotating tower).

That's why I'd go with ancient shield knight.

[godOfKings]

Ok i support ancient shield knight but the most important question is which building to produce from? Castle and stable?

In fact i never realised it but if i remove the shield and feather, and replace sword of heavy shield knight with spear, it would practically look like a cataphract... and to think i drew it without knowledge of wat caraphracts look like... so here is another reason y cataphract should b like heavy shield knight stat wise in the game

[L4cus]

we will have hellenic so hellenic should be included, same cost as knight and maybe more tanky but less offensive traits, similar to shielded knight, but idk...even slow or hard to handle the weopens on horse back and with all the equipment, the weight of the horse and the knight could deal several damage to packed forces, maybe some weak splash damage...

[godOfKings]

I think endru stats is good, 7 armor is a lot especially early game, and with slow heavy category, it gets 300% bonus dmg from spearman, so basic spearman would deal 4x3 +4 =16 -7 armor=9 dmg to this 40 hp beast, thats definitely worth the 6 turn cost early game

Right now hellenic building is still not implemented so for now castle and stables seem most suitable, other hellenic units are also spread among different buildings

[Morningwarrior]

I think endru stats is good, 7 armor is a lot especially early game, and with slow heavy category, it gets 300% bonus dmg from spearman, so basic spearman would deal 4x3 +4 =16 -7 armor=9 dmg to this 40 hp beast, thats definitely worth the 6 turn cost early game

Right now hellenic building is still not implemented so for now castle and stables seem most suitable, other hellenic units are also spread among different buildings

so it would be a status more or less like that for him?
Hp:40
Atk:9
Def:7/3
Spd:3/4(i do know yet)
Sight:5
Rng:1
Act:1
Cost:6
in recruiting parts he could for now be recruited in castles?

[Endru1241]

Implemented.
Decided to copy Spartan Hoplite-Foot Knight relation to Catahpract-Shield Knight.
So it cataphracts are implemented with 2nd upgrade of shield knight hp, attack and armors increased by +2 each.
Behomoth like defence of 47hp, 7/9 armors and 1.5x healing, with 100% mr to complement that.

[godOfKings]

Which nation does it belong?

[Endru1241]

None.
It doesn't get any extra bonuses from nation.

But it's buildable in stables, roman garrison, hellenic gymnasion and once it'll be introduced - it'll be buildable in middle-east factory.

[L4cus]

hellenic gymnasion is not in-game yet

[Endru1241]

It is in dev version already.

[Badnorth]

@Endru1241 I'll improve it's image. I hope the improved image can be implemented before it goes to public.

And i think it will because the Promotion Weapon of Hastati and Principes isn't working still. Please wait for my image in the mean time.