well...there goes the suggestion, i like the image of the flamethrower, sadly i cant say the same for the clothes of the gunman
btw i think the unit, if added, should be cheirosiphon (hand siphon), if we go for siphon, it would be a nother kind of weapon
Greek Fire Siphon
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
I was actually thinking of making it more than that. Like a 5-6 turn unit that can burn land units specifically.
2-3 range
10dmg
With burning effect for humans. If im not wrong that's how it was described from what I watched. It's like the solution sticking to the targets.
Well, there's also the granadier but ill make that as a separate unit.
2-3 range
10dmg
With burning effect for humans. If im not wrong that's how it was described from what I watched. It's like the solution sticking to the targets.
Well, there's also the granadier but ill make that as a separate unit.
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
i cant see heavy siphons on ships haveing less range than a hand version...
i also suggested burning flesh and blood with the string fire unique status
if byzantine mega is added, would it have fire greek ability?
i also suggested burning flesh and blood with the string fire unique status
about grenadier, sounds interesting
if byzantine mega is added, would it have fire greek ability?
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
What if the burn is like
-5hp
Ignores armor and stuff
2-3 duration but cannot be healed?
100% bonus against elephants
50% cavalry
And the bonus you said.
Okay then, what if 2 range.
Or at least even if its 1 range, it will have enough health to survive attacks.
4-6turns
18-24hp
6 atk
Power range 1
Armor 1
P. Arm 1
Speed 3
-5hp
Ignores armor and stuff
2-3 duration but cannot be healed?
100% bonus against elephants
50% cavalry
And the bonus you said.
Okay then, what if 2 range.
Or at least even if its 1 range, it will have enough health to survive attacks.
4-6turns
18-24hp
6 atk
Power range 1
Armor 1
P. Arm 1
Speed 3
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
for range i suggested a tech to rise siphon based units range +1, or maybe just raising their attack, could be unique for a possible bizantine factory
i would like the strong fire effect lasting more than burning, since its said that it was not only hard to remove but also it lasted longer. current burning efect last 5 turns, so at least 6 for strong fire i think
is the bonus against mounted needed? maybe because it hurts both horse and mounted man
btw agree with the -5hp, higher than the -4 of burning effect, and lso like ur stats for the 4 turns unit
i would like the strong fire effect lasting more than burning, since its said that it was not only hard to remove but also it lasted longer. current burning efect last 5 turns, so at least 6 for strong fire i think
is the bonus against mounted needed? maybe because it hurts both horse and mounted man
btw agree with the -5hp, higher than the -4 of burning effect, and lso like ur stats for the 4 turns unit
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
Such burning effect, affecting flesh and blood units doesn't really make sense.
Thinking about flavour - what kind of magic would be used to make human burn long?
Normally even very hard to put fire would be removed by taking clothes, rolling on ground, by sand or ground thrown at the fire.
It would be put down fast.
And even if not - burned human would not last, so only untouched or barely touched by attack unit members would survive.
Where is lasting effect?
And for balance side - armored units already have quite a bit of counters, so they don't really need another one.
Especially so versatile.
Adding to that proposition to make it unhealable is a thing to just make sure we'll see sudden and strong decrease of any units outside garrisons, which is not many already.
Pricier units would not be risked to attack any shooting garrison, because enemy could put siphon unit somewhere.
Thinking about flavour - what kind of magic would be used to make human burn long?
Normally even very hard to put fire would be removed by taking clothes, rolling on ground, by sand or ground thrown at the fire.
It would be put down fast.
And even if not - burned human would not last, so only untouched or barely touched by attack unit members would survive.
Where is lasting effect?
And for balance side - armored units already have quite a bit of counters, so they don't really need another one.
Especially so versatile.
Adding to that proposition to make it unhealable is a thing to just make sure we'll see sudden and strong decrease of any units outside garrisons, which is not many already.
Pricier units would not be risked to attack any shooting garrison, because enemy could put siphon unit somewhere.
Age of Strategy design leader
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
i was thinking of removing the power range, but yeah it would be a bigger nerf than a buff.
maybe the foot one could have no power range and be cheaper right?
didnt realise it ignores armor, good trait
maybe the foot one could have no power range and be cheaper right?
didnt realise it ignores armor, good trait
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
It's not magic but science. If IRL, we can burn even on water, make a bomb by adding metal to water, I don't see why human using flammable liquid is not possible. It's just a water gun with flame at the end, if you use that to humans, the human will burn. Even if you remove your clothes, if the flammable liquid is still on you, you will burn.Endru1241 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:41 pm Such burning effect, affecting flesh and blood units doesn't really make sense.
Thinking about flavour - what kind of magic would be used to make human burn long?
Normally even very hard to put fire would be removed by taking clothes, rolling on ground, by sand or ground thrown at the fire.
It would be put down fast.
And even if not - burned human would not last, so only untouched or barely touched by attack unit members would survive.
Where is lasting effect?
And for balance side - armored units already have quite a bit of counters, so they don't really need another one.
Especially so versatile.
Adding to that proposition to make it unhealable is a thing to just make sure we'll see sudden and strong decrease of any units outside garrisons, which is not many already.
Pricier units would not be risked to attack any shooting garrison, because enemy could put siphon unit somewhere.
Isn't there a common elementary experiment where alcohols were used in hands and set it on fire. That's basically it but more destructive since Greek fire were meant for war.
Idk about lasting effect but this also hold true for poisons isn't it? It can be that there certain parts that is burn and the liquid even being able to set aflame on water, I would assume that it could last on humans too. People also are quite sturdy so surviving long while burning isn't that too much of myth. Even some people survive 20 gunshots on the body. It could also be that that the burning human was incapacitated and is busy removing while other fight etc.
On the poison case, you might survive the poison for long but not really much the penetrating arrows isn't it? It would likely incapacitate you IRL.
I think siphon is still easily countered by making it not cheap. Cavalry can easily counter it. Arrows can counter it. It also looks like a specialized unit so making it either culture limited or factory limited wouldn't really make it OP.
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
It's not magic but science. If IRL, we can burn even on water, make a bomb by adding metal to water, I don't see why human using flammable liquid is not possible. It's just a water gun with flame at the end, if you use that to humans, the human will burn. Even if you remove your clothes, if the flammable liquid is still on you, you will burn.Endru1241 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:41 pm Such burning effect, affecting flesh and blood units doesn't really make sense.
Thinking about flavour - what kind of magic would be used to make human burn long?
Normally even very hard to put fire would be removed by taking clothes, rolling on ground, by sand or ground thrown at the fire.
It would be put down fast.
And even if not - burned human would not last, so only untouched or barely touched by attack unit members would survive.
Where is lasting effect?
And for balance side - armored units already have quite a bit of counters, so they don't really need another one.
Especially so versatile.
Adding to that proposition to make it unhealable is a thing to just make sure we'll see sudden and strong decrease of any units outside garrisons, which is not many already.
Pricier units would not be risked to attack any shooting garrison, because enemy could put siphon unit somewhere.
Isn't there a common elementary experiment where alcohols were used in hands and set it on fire. That's basically it but more destructive since Greek fire were meant for war.
Idk about lasting effect but this also hold true for poisons isn't it? It can be that there certain parts that is burn and the liquid even being able to set aflame on water, I would assume that it could last on humans too. People also are quite sturdy so surviving long while burning isn't that too much of myth. Even some people survive 20 gunshots on the body. Or having 20+ stabs and still fight of an attacker being dying after few hours. It could also be that that the burning human was incapacitated and is busy removing while other fight etc.
On the poison case, you might survive the poison for long but not really much the penetrating arrows isn't it? It would likely incapacitate you IRL and make you unable to fight.
I think siphon is still easily countered by making it not cheap. Cavalry can easily counter it. Arrows can counter it. It also looks like a specialized unit so making it either culture limited or factory limited wouldn't really make it OP.
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
Not really.DreJaDe wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:20 pmIt's not magic but science. If IRL, we can burn even on water, make a bomb by adding metal to water, I don't see why human using flammable liquid is not possible. It's just a water gun with flame at the end, if you use that to humans, the human will burn. Even if you remove your clothes, if the flammable liquid is still on you, you will burn.Endru1241 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 4:41 pm Such burning effect, affecting flesh and blood units doesn't really make sense.
Thinking about flavour - what kind of magic would be used to make human burn long?
Normally even very hard to put fire would be removed by taking clothes, rolling on ground, by sand or ground thrown at the fire.
It would be put down fast.
And even if not - burned human would not last, so only untouched or barely touched by attack unit members would survive.
Where is lasting effect?
And for balance side - armored units already have quite a bit of counters, so they don't really need another one.
Especially so versatile.
Adding to that proposition to make it unhealable is a thing to just make sure we'll see sudden and strong decrease of any units outside garrisons, which is not many already.
Pricier units would not be risked to attack any shooting garrison, because enemy could put siphon unit somewhere.
Isn't there a common elementary experiment where alcohols were used in hands and set it on fire. That's basically it but more destructive since Greek fire were meant for war.
Put alcohol on non-soaking protective glove (to avoid any chance to burn yourself) flame it and try putting the fire by slapping and rolling the hand on the ground.
It's quite easy.
It couldn't be done by water though.
By trying to put such kind of fire with water - you'd make it much worse.
The reason is not that oil or alcohol burn so well, that fire cannot be put by water, but by simple physical differences.
Common misunderstanding of how exactly fire works.
Fire is not a thing in itself.
What we see is reaction of oxidation, that is extremely exothermic.
So what we burn is actually chemical reaction of adding oxygen to material - commonly splitting it to hard remains (coal in case of organics) and oxides. Temperature is both needed and generated further by the reaction.
So to stop it easiest way is to separate material from oxygen.
In common cases water does the job to separate it quite good.
But in rare cases of materials less dense than water being burned - it does adverse effect.
Water is denser so it goes on bottom, splitting and raising material like oil or alcohol which makes it even more affected by oxygen in air quickening the reaction.
If sand or some solid material is used to put the fire - it's not the problem.
Even against greek fire on ship - they used animal skins (soaked in vinegar if possible).
Age of Strategy design leader
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
yes! animal fur was effective, i think it was used in siege towers and rams as well
btw, i read greek fire was good in water, like water is what makes it so deadly, instead of estinguish it, it becomes stronger, not sure though
btw, i read greek fire was good in water, like water is what makes it so deadly, instead of estinguish it, it becomes stronger, not sure though
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
Animal skin - with fur removed.
If main part was something oily and lighter than water - that would be the case when trying to put it with water.
But there are many more ingredients that could even make some reactions with salt water.
There is even a suspicion it could start to burn by contact with salt water, but it would be very dangerous for own ships in such case.
Age of Strategy design leader
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
About lasting - it all depends what exact time of the turn we assume.DreJaDe wrote: ↑Tue Mar 15, 2022 5:20 pm Idk about lasting effect but this also hold true for poisons isn't it? It can be that there certain parts that is burn and the liquid even being able to set aflame on water, I would assume that it could last on humans too. People also are quite sturdy so surviving long while burning isn't that too much of myth. Even some people survive 20 gunshots on the body. It could also be that that the burning human was incapacitated and is busy removing while other fight etc.
On the poison case, you might survive the poison for long but not really much the penetrating arrows isn't it? It would likely incapacitate you IRL.
I think siphon is still easily countered by making it not cheap. Cavalry can easily counter it. Arrows can counter it. It also looks like a specialized unit so making it either culture limited or factory limited wouldn't really make it OP.
Hours?
Days?
If the former one - no human would last such long time.
With poison it's possible.
Besides we take some average and some assumptions with units, so covering weapons with poison, so enemies barely cut can also receive deadly damage later on - sure.
But burn?
It's rather proportional to the area hit.
And close to immidate in case of flesh.
On the balance side - problem with countering is that it would be also deadly to anything.
And proposition is for foot unit, so having it hidden in garrison would be much worse case than current flailmen.
Age of Strategy design leader
Re: Greek Fire Siphon
The basics of assuming the effects of fire in game really puts the fire effects in the game in question if you use that as your logic. This is why I used that logic to make it have 2-3 turn anyway.
If every turn can be days Ind from other topic it seems to be even weeks or months then having it to last for 5 turns doesn't make much sense on it's own.
In terms of proportion of IRL and Game, is it really that problematic? Isn't there quite a lot of units that is like that?
In the case of glove. That's not really the point. I'm talking about humans burning by using flammable liquids. Just depending on the chemical, it can burn for quite a time. And the case you mention can be also be countered by the fact that unit image in game doesn't represent everyone but can be just one. If one has it, remove it, the other might not or cant even think of it.
I also just like to add the case after burn injury which will feel like a burn even without the fire. This could be explained by the burn effect in game already if put to flesh and blood units. This injury also can last for days, hurting for days.
In cases of armor, it's not like it can't be negotiated since it's just a suggestion. I just assumed that if you burn your clothes or armor, removing it or going on the floor doesn't really do you much better since the land will also have those chemicals amd you who removed your clothes will have no armor. (Better to make it simple then considering all that.
I don't really see how it is so dangerous to everything. The suggestion having 1-2 range is not much threat. If it's the aoe effect then I understand. It's not like im fully committed from having it. It's just that if im going for a 4-6 turn units, it better be worth it.
Smt like 5 turns
15-18 hp
Atk: 6
Both armor;1
Aoe removed.
If every turn can be days Ind from other topic it seems to be even weeks or months then having it to last for 5 turns doesn't make much sense on it's own.
In terms of proportion of IRL and Game, is it really that problematic? Isn't there quite a lot of units that is like that?
In the case of glove. That's not really the point. I'm talking about humans burning by using flammable liquids. Just depending on the chemical, it can burn for quite a time. And the case you mention can be also be countered by the fact that unit image in game doesn't represent everyone but can be just one. If one has it, remove it, the other might not or cant even think of it.
I also just like to add the case after burn injury which will feel like a burn even without the fire. This could be explained by the burn effect in game already if put to flesh and blood units. This injury also can last for days, hurting for days.
In cases of armor, it's not like it can't be negotiated since it's just a suggestion. I just assumed that if you burn your clothes or armor, removing it or going on the floor doesn't really do you much better since the land will also have those chemicals amd you who removed your clothes will have no armor. (Better to make it simple then considering all that.
I don't really see how it is so dangerous to everything. The suggestion having 1-2 range is not much threat. If it's the aoe effect then I understand. It's not like im fully committed from having it. It's just that if im going for a 4-6 turn units, it better be worth it.
Smt like 5 turns
15-18 hp
Atk: 6
Both armor;1
Aoe removed.