New Unit: Imam

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Aral_Yaren
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New Unit: Imam

Post by Aral_Yaren »

I propose new unit - Imam:

Trainable: TC
Cost: 4 turns
Hp: 14
Atk: 3
Armor: 0/0
Action: 1
Speed: 3 tiles

Abilities:

1. Recite Holiness: "by reciting Holy Scripture, units are eager to stand for justice"

Effect: Unit -1 cooldown

2. Spiritual Call: "units called for duties to do their deeds:

Effect: Unit +1turn positive last duration for themselves (like Leaving, Berzerk, Wolfrage etc). Should be cooled down ny 1 turn.
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SirPat
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by SirPat »

could you detail us with some history or any information about that units history
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godOfKings
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by godOfKings »

Imam is muslim version of a priest basically, they preach islam
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Aral_Yaren
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Aral_Yaren »

I'll add the desc:

"among the faithful is Imam who gives helps and guidances for practical life of the way, and leads them in prayers."

They may also have healing ability, which suits for their role too.

This unit shall enrich AoS for Middle Eastern faction (civs), as for now the Middle Eastern units that I see for regular play are Persian Immortal, the four Elephants, Camel Archer and Mamluk, and the Sasanid Archer (?).
There shall be times... when people across the world shall live in peace and harmony through their various diversities. I shall wait for it, even though it costs my life...
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SirPat
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by SirPat »

Ahh cool yeah good idea
I am Pat :>

I barely visit the forums, but when I do and u saw me reading your post. Expect a whole paragraph to be released about your topic. well except if I like your idea and the idea is perfect as it is, if so ill give u my support
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godOfKings
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by godOfKings »

We need some more middle eastern units and make a style for them,
by the way an imam should also have the power of persuasion since muslim imams from the middle easts were the first pioneers in spreading islam in a mainly hindu majority indian sub-continent, they might actually have stronger persuasion than priest, but its still debatable,
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools
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Aral_Yaren
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Aral_Yaren »

So their plnanned abilities:

1. Spiritual Call: decreasing uni's cooldown (like Berzerk's rage, Demolition Ship' petard, Condottiere's pay mercs etc - any unit's ability that has cooldown)

2. Group Healing: to a lesser degree than Bishop's, perhaps just 6hp.

3. Conversion: 45% chance before Persuasion tech.

Stats the same:

Hp: 14
Atk: 3
Armor: 0/0
Speed: 3
Production: TC
Turn: 4
There shall be times... when people across the world shall live in peace and harmony through their various diversities. I shall wait for it, even though it costs my life...
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godOfKings
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by godOfKings »

Wat about morale buff instead?

Cost: 4 turns
Hp: 14
Atk: 2
Armor: 0/0
Spell resist: 100%
Speed:2
Sight: 4

Recite holy scriptures
0 range, 4 tile area range, lasts 6 turns
Gives +1 atk, +1/+1 armor +35 spell resist to allies in range

Spiritual calling
4 range, lasts 3 turns
Gives +4 atk, +1 armor, + 35 spell resist to target allied unit

Persuasion (base 45%) range 4

Single target healing
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools
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Hyuhjhih
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Hyuhjhih »

Yeah, decreasing units ability cooldown seems bad idea. It will alter the balance of many units.
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godOfKings
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by godOfKings »

Also it doesnt match with description of ability, increasing atk and spell resist matches more, basically for 1 more turn cost, u get a slightly better healer with group buff spell
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

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Aral_Yaren
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Aral_Yaren »

I agree with Recite Holy Scripture ability to give +1 atk, +1/1 armor and spell resistance 35%. How shaal it go? Cast like Aztec Priest's Sacrifice Altar and last for 4 turn?

Meanwhile the Spiritual Call to give +4 atk, +1 melee for more than 1 turn I thought kinda op imho. How about summoning ability (its spiritual call by name)? There're NPCs for muslim militia (similar to crusade) - Warrior, Halberdier, Archer and Mounted. Perhaps making it ramdom, with 6 turn cooldown.
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godOfKings
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by godOfKings »

I thought of spiritual call as more like bard's battle song, muslims had kingdoms and fought in wars, but imams were never the advocates of war, muslims didnt have a history of invading in the name of religion like christian crusades, so they cannot hire soldiers like calling crusade

The imam's spiritual call can b considered as jihad, calling the people to fight in a war to protect themselves and their religion from outside invaders, so due to the reasoning of protecting urself, this spell will highly boost morale to individual, as highly as bard's battle song, and as imam is more expensive this spell is slightly stronger than battle song and lasts longer
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools
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Endru1241
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Endru1241 »

I intentionally tried to avoid adding muslim religious units.Because it's complicated:
- Islam have no formal clergy. Sunnism - none at all. Shiism - only Imams are official and there is only very few of them, like christian archbishops/patriarchs or catholic pope (they are said to be directly from the blood line of Muhammad).
- Non-official positions are very specialised and lack power. Quadi or mufti - judges of islamic law are probably the most powerful, but much less than celtic druids or roman senators,  imam khatib (in sunnism) is only leading prayers and reading/reciting scripture, mullah/sheikh are only respectful titles (master/elder). Alim means scholar and while it generally means being knowledgeable in religious texts - the same title was conferred even to scholars, that came from europe (probably christian) during islamic golden age.
- every unit has representative interpretation - if so what is really so different about islam from christian churches that it needs alternative representation to healer/priest ?

So first question is - how such unit really should be named?
Second - what ability/abilities would really represent religious influence/power of specifically Islam?
godOfKings wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 pm muslims didnt have a history of invading in the name of religion like christian crusades, so they cannot hire soldiers like calling crusade
Completely false.
All early conquers, that set islamic sphere of influence were related to religion - jihad against infidels.
Every civil war or punitive war against neighbours were jihads against heresy.
As an interesting fact - Mahmud Ghaznavi empire called Jihad after hindu people at the end of 10th century and continued in 11th.
godOfKings wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 pm ... war to protect themselves and their religion from outside invaders, so due to the reasoning of protecting urself
I know some muslims right now even believe in "Greater Jihad" as personal struggle against yourself, but historically it's irrelevant.
Sources that provide proofs of such ideology really existing in medieval times are scarce and unreliable - speaking very mild of that, others would say - complete bulshit.
There is a ton of citations in the Quran, that are very specific about war and deception. Much more than in Judaic Tora and other texts or Christian Bible (especially as that one is almost free of it in the later part).
Jihad is often described as war against the whole world, that could only end as Islam would be the only religion.
And studying history even in very amateur way - anyone can see that muslims of 8-15th centuries really acted on it.
They created great, enlightened society though - especially during 9-11th centuries - they invited and paid scholars of every nation without any solid proof of discrimination.
So did Catholic Church up to 12-13th century.
So not to get into religious debate - historically Islamic culture was not very defensive one. Not in any way less aggressive than Europeans at the very least.

But I agree with:
godOfKings wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:12 pm The imam's spiritual call can b considered as jihad
Although I am not sure what is better for that - buff or
Aral_Yaren wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 6:29 am How about summoning ability (its spiritual call by name)? There're NPCs for muslim militia (similar to crusade) - Warrior, Halberdier, Archer and Mounted. Perhaps making it ramdom, with 6 turn cooldown.
Could be done.
Those units are not trained anywhere so they could become random production without problems.
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godOfKings
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by godOfKings »

We also need to consider wat role imam is playing here, and most people have agreed it to b priest counterpart for middle east faction, i didnt agree with him hiring saracens, if needed the middle east faction building can hire saracens itself

I thought basically a more passive and religious unit than priest and more expensive so it would focus on the preaching role of imams, giving it a group buffing spell and a single target battle-song like spell, otherwise his stats r similar to healer with 2 speed and 1 action
godOfKings wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 5:16 am Wat about morale buff instead?

Cost: 4 turns
Hp: 14
Atk: 2
Armor: 0/0
Spell resist: 100%
Speed:2
Sight: 4

Recite holy scriptures
0 range, 4 tile area range, lasts 6 turns
Gives +1 atk, +1/+1 armor +35 spell resist to allies in range

Spiritual calling
4 range, lasts 3 turns
Gives +4 atk, +1 armor, + 35 spell resist to target allied unit

Persuasion (base 45%) range 4

Single target healing
For a muslim aggressive unit, we need a more specific aggressive role playing unit name, like mujaheed or jihadist, may b a leader unit among them with saracen hiring ability but we should also think about muslim players in our community b4 pushing through anything

Also, sry for my lack of knowledge as my history of muslim invaders started from the invasion of Babur(founder of the mughals in india) to the sultanate of Delhi and i mostly read about the strategies he utilised to kill more with less and not on any religious jihadism (well they were both muslims so it would not make sense to call jihad on one another anyway :?)
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools
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Endru1241
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Endru1241 »

You are probably right about not giving jihad as ability.
Taking crusaders as an example it should rather be tied to some purely military unit.

If we take all wars ever called "jihad", most would probably be against other muslims.
Just like most bloody religious wars in christianity was against one another.
Heresy - such hateful word.
Although, it can be said to in human nature, that strangely one can fight with even more hate the closer they are in beliefs (look at all those forum battles about tiniest details).

As for exact abilities of this unit - I think they should be carefully fitted to proper name.
E.g. any preacher would hardly have healing abilities if there was no medical study/huge influence over people.
And Imam means much more for shiites, so it's dangerous to use it.

Safest would probably be alim if we tried to include healing.
Or just skip it and name unit imam khatib (literally something like leader narrator).
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godOfKings
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by godOfKings »

Good, khatib then, also we can assume that khatib has some followers who know healing,

also slightly off topic, for a muslim ruler unit, there is Caliphate, sultanate could b a name for a middle eastern castle too
There is no place for false kings here, only those who proves themselves to b the true kings of legend, or serves under me

For I watch over this world looking for those worthy to become kings, and on the way get rid of the fakes and rule over the fools
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Aral_Yaren
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Aral_Yaren »

Offnote: yes, history has many lists on how religion was used against internal, even external faction. Not merely the Abrahamics, but all over the world - where there's obsessive vying for power, clashes almost unhinderable, in the past, present, or even future.

And the name - yes there's no legitimate titularies for them, since they aren't elected, and absorbed, by any power-holder (Qadhi is elected by government to judge problems, ranging from everyday's life to matters of the state in ministry - contrary to Mufti who gives and solve answers about religious matters in people's life, who is elected by Ijma', Ulama's vote). The Imam literally is leader in religious life, meanwhile Khatib is literally preacher. If the word Imam may rise misunderstandings due to lack of knowledge, so then theword Muallim, or rather balance, Ulama, is fine for the name.

Back to ability topic - pacific ability that suits imho is giving armor buff +2/+2 that last 4 turn, under the name Recite Scripture. How do you think, forumers?
There shall be times... when people across the world shall live in peace and harmony through their various diversities. I shall wait for it, even though it costs my life...
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Marine25
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Marine25 »

I think I should post the imam image here
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Marine25
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Marine25 »

Here is the image
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Marine25
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Re: New Unit: Imam

Post by Marine25 »

Here is the Final Image I change a small thing with it
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