Who skipped?

Any other ideas that does not fit to the specific categories.
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Dagravian
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

I don't see problem with that because you already can play with whoever you want... There is no player restrictions unless ban, friend, psw or badge are allowed.

But i don't understand what to you are trying to achieve, so if skiping is not bad but you know the problem is related to it, while you refuse to limit skipings so we have less skip merchants... How exactly you expect to fix the problem If you don't introduce mechanics that educate and introduce ethics to the game? Exposing them to shame surelly does not help, in fact help worsening the issue or you will deny that? My goal is to decrease the so called skip merchant behavior and not expose them to shame.

You probably didn't stop to think about the whole extension of the solution i proposed... When i stated that the host should be the one that will choose the timeout ammount, it will be up to him to allow the extra time, plus he can choose that ammount, being a lot or none if he so desire, if you don't want to wait, you still could make matches without it or spend your gems for it on matches that does have it.

It is not banning skip, its just delaying it, by adding a period for both a skip or a comeback to happen... Like @phoenixffyrnig mentioned on the first post, people have lives outside the game... So if you are a skipper, you will think twice before doing that on matches that this feature is enabled, as that will touch their economy...

I understand perfectly your concern about revealing who skipped, but i don't think just revealing them will help... So i will suggest another thing:

A) Skip tickets + Time out - Everything is keept as anonimous, focusing on reduce that behavior by making an economy around it.

B) Alternative skip ticket but No timeout - Everything is reveiled, but the skipper can still skip anonimously by paying few gems or using an alternative skip ticket.

C) Name reveal on Time out - No gem involved, Skipper Name is revealed on the timeout period, after that is anonimous.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

There seems to be some misunderstanding as to my intentions with the original post - allow to to address various issues here... (in no particular order, because it's the weekend and I'm off my nibs already :) )

Firstly and most critically - I am not having a go at people who skip...you have the RIGHT to skip me if I go over time, I am not debating that...but it's the people who have the DESIRE to skip someone at first opportunity I wish to be aware of.

Yes - I can arrange games with just friends, or with passwords - I do so frequently, I set up many MP games with varying levels of accessibility...but what I don't want to do is exclude new players just because they haven't made it to my friends list, or I haven't met them yet.

I don't want to buy immunity, I just want to know I'm playing with folks who won't skip me and who know I won't skip them. Anyone who sticks with this game beyond the first few days does it for a reason - they love this game! Let's just assume a player will take his turn as soon as possible.

I am not intending to sharpen my pitchfork and light my fire torch because someone skipped me, I won't tell all my mates to gang up on them, I won't give them stick in game or on chat - I just want to know who.

I really hope there are people here who, for whatever reason, haven't been able to take all their turns, but have thought "it's OK, phoenix won't skip me, I'll take that turn as soon as I can"....Because I just want a good game, a fair fight, some fun...I don't care if it takes a bit longer to achieve that....this is a game, lets enjoy it!
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

Wow, this is ironic!

My phone is legit broken....it wont charge. I will get a new phone first thing tomorrow and will be back with you ASAP.

If you folks could give me just 12 hours grace to get back up and running that would be hugely appreciated. Sorry to all those I'm holding up.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Badnorth »

Ok bye :!:
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Puss_in_Boots »

Grace period granted
OLÉ
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

Looks like its the "Broken Phone" season xD

My phone is still taking dust in the tech assistance.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Yeetbruh »

We could give extra time based on ranking of a player eg. Lvl 1 gets 20 minutes extra lvl 2 gets 2 hours lvl 3 gets 12 hours lvl 4 gets 1 day lvl 5 gets 3 days extra time
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

Case in point

I'm in 2v2v2, where EVERYBODY agreed at the start of the game to give two days grace to anyone who needed it.

Three skips have been made, nearly as soon as the timer expired, (despite protests being made after the first skip) - once against our number one ranked player, and twice against the person who set the game up (also an AoS veteran)

This is not only disrespectful, but also dishonest. If anyone shows those two qualities in real life, then I want nothing to do with them. If I could see who skipped, then I would be able to avoid those sort of people in this game, and so would anyone else who joins my games.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

Clearly not everyone agreed as someone broke the "grace courtesy" of your match. Yet, you can't enforce such thing on strangers and expect them to follow that without proper mechanics...

It isn't disrespectful as grace period is not a rule or a feature of the game but a courtesy between players, and it isn't dishonest as skipping is not wrong and is part of the game, it's just not ethic on your case.

I don't like the idea of ppl losing their privacy when skipping, but i would love if the "grace period" could be set as optional rule when creating the match and who breaks it get reveiled.

With that as feature, all sides get what they want, don't you think @phoenixffyrnig ?

You can get your names, and ppl can still keep their privacy if they wait that period expire. Plus you can have some extra time for your matches.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

Sorry @DoomsdayDragonfire , but your logic is warped. You cannot claim that because someone broke the agreement that means "clearly not everyone agreed!"

EVERYBODY agreed, right at the start of the game. All 6 of us, it's there in writing in the in-game chat. Someone went back on their word, multiple times. That IS dishonest.

Also, it was the person who set up the game (the HOST, in who's game we are all GUESTS) who requested this grace period... (at the risk of repeating myself, the voluntary rule we all agreed to). Not only was he skipped twice, but the top ranked multiplayer was also skipped, each time at pretty much first opportunity. This IS incredibly disrespectful.

If someone gives their word or makes a commitment, I expect them to honour it, even if it is in a game! By making that collective commitment, we all agreed to make a new rule, not an ethical guideline!

Yes, your idea is fine, it ticks all my boxes...well, my only box. I just want to know who can't be trusted! We can make this process as simple or as complicated as we like.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

Are you sure? Allow me to put your situation on this way:

I think your situation is pretty much same to any online agreement/contract of some program or online service, like win/7-zip for example, people just ignore reading the TOS or the contract of these online products and just click right on "I read and accept the terms of use" to use the service, which is clearly a lie.

But no one does that bcz they are being disrespectful against the devs or smt, they just want to skip the bureocracy and use the service as it is.

So since the voluntary rule you guys established on that game can't be enforced and the skip is a part of the game, what makes you think it will not be done? Bcz you guys said? You will protest later? Sorry but there is nothing special on a random match with strangers... These people just want to play the game as it is. And none is forced to grant a grace to another, like i said many times before, allowing extra time is a courtesy, anyone has their right to if they so desire, to not provide that, so if the game does not enforce it, then it is not a rule... It is an ethical guideline that you guys adopted for that match. Where one or more people just did decided to not follow it... You might think that it isn't cool, but they are on their right, so it is what it is...

Anyway, i would also like to contest that part where you claimed that one person is skipping, i think you have at least 4 suspects and several probabilities to think about, but that subject will probably go in circles... So let us focus on the feature. It will deal with these problems anyway...

===========

So, for the feature, the simple, is better, I think one single button can be added on the match creation options, being located under the Turn/Time ammount.

Since the default turn time is usually 24 hours. The: "Extended period/Grace time or any name" should have similar options, being: [no(as default), 1 hour, 2 hours... 12 hours, 24 hours, etc].

But since periods can be flexibilized, we could change the standard to 12 hours for the base turn time and 12 hours of the grace, granting you 24 hours. On the first 12 hours of the turn, it works as usual, on the last 12 hours you can be skipped, but the name of the person is exposed. After the both periods, skips stay hidden as it is.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Squirrel5555 »

1)ALL the players give their word, mutual agreement
2)a player skips and breaks the agreement he made

Some people may not want to play with a player who has no regard for the promises they make, and throw around their word like that.
The point of a promise is that it is something that can't be enforced, it is mutual trust. I don't want to play with a liar, even if it is a relatively minor thing like a game. I should have the right to know.

Once again, a grace period is overly complicated, just change the message sent when someone skips to include their nickname. In the grace period system players who want to skip will still skip, the games will just last much longer.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

Squirrel5555 wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:02 am 1)ALL the players give their word, mutual agreement
2)a player skips and breaks the agreement he made

Some people may not want to play with a player who has no regard for the promises they make, and throw around their word like that.
The point of a promise is that it is something that can't be enforced, it is mutual trust. I don't want to play with a liar, even if it is a relatively minor thing like a game. I should have the right to know.

Once again, a grace period is overly complicated, just change the message sent when someone skips to include their nickname. In the grace period system players who want to skip will still skip, the games will just last much longer.
1) Fake agreement.
2) Expected. No drama.

- An agreement is not a promisse.
- You probably never lied or hidden the truth of someone in your life right? Even on the smallest things.
- You will have your right to know who skipped inside the grace period.
- It will not make your games longer, both periods are flexible, so unless you want them to be longer, you will be able to make matches that have the any turn period and any grace span you want. (Eg 1h regular turn and 12hrs of grace).
- Yep, glad you understanded that, people will still skip, and i suggested ways to halt that, but you said that skipping is not wrong, so on this way, everyone gets what they want.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

phoenixffyrnig wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:58 pm There is a huge division on multiplayer between people who skip others as soon as they can, and people who would rather wait a little while longer to have a good match.

Some people see skipping as part of the game, a tool to use to gain any advantage. Some of us accept that real life happens and perhaps a bit of patience is the best choice.
It looks like you and I are on either side of that division @DoomsdayDragonfire - I think we'd better just accept that we will never see this situation from the other's POV... but that is precisely my point!!! That division exists, evidently, but we have no way of telling who is on which side. I am not on a crusade to ban skipping, or to make it harder to do - I just want to play in good company, with chivalrous opponents who prefer not to skip for the sake of a good game. By being able to see who skipped, it would be easy.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:11 am
Anyway, i would also like to contest that part where you claimed that one person is skipping, i think you have at least 4 suspects and several probabilities to think about, but that subject will probably go in circles...
What is your implication here, that I haven't thought about things, or that I don't think about things? Please, do not insult me by implying either one of those things!

Infact, I'm fairly confident I know who it is, but that is based on an assumption (that well-respected veteran players won't skip their own team-mates after agreeing not to), and other observations. Notice how I am not naming this person...
a) because I cannot be 100% sure,
b) because I have no desire to start a vendetta, abuse this person or make their life difficult in anyway - I simply wish to avoid them!
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:24 pm
1) Fake agreement.
How is something that all parties agree to a fake agreement? The situation I have described comes under the headings "Verbal contract" "written agreement" and "giving your word". Are all these really meaningless in your eyes?!? You know what, this may not be a perfect world, but some of us choose to operate with honesty and integrity!
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Mon Jul 13, 2020 5:24 pm
- You probably never lied or hidden the truth of someone in your life right? Even on the smallest things.
Again, what is your point here? Yes, I agree, I told fibs as a child. As a teenager I sometimes bigged myself up with exaggerated claims. That was some time ago. So what are you saying, that just because I have done wrong in the past it negates any honesty I have shown since then because I USED to fib??? People learn, grow, develop... you can't use a lack of honesty in someone's past to justify remaining dishonest or to justify other examples of dishonesty!

And finally, what is the point of adding in a "grace period" to preserve anonymity in a game where we all use pseudonyms? I have previously mentioned I have no intention of harassment or shredding anybody's reputation, and I imagine that any behaviour that constitutes abuse or harassment will be SWIFTLY dealt with, and rightly so!

The "grace period" is pointless - your side of the division won't want it, and my side of the division won't need it!
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

Alright, this will be long, sorry beforehand...
It looks like you and I are on either side of that division @DoomsdayDragonfire - I think we'd better just accept that we will never see this situation from the other's POV... but that is precisely my point!!! That division exists, evidently, but we have no way of telling who is on which side. I am not on a crusade to ban skipping, or to make it harder to do - I just want to play in good company, with chivalrous opponents who prefer not to skip for the sake of a good game. By being able to see who skipped, it would be easy.
I prefer avoid such binary thinking... I consider myself outside of both sides, yet i can see both views perfectly.
If you didn't knew, some weeks ago i've been struggling with my phone trying to fix it, so i kinda got skipped a lot in all games, but i'm not worried to know who skipped me and who stole my gems on some matches even if i was winning... My life is priority... I know you seen to not want to make a witch hunt, but i know it can and will happen, so i want to avoid that problem before it even start. A culture of banlist who skip is not healthly to the game comunity if from one day to another, everyone decides ban anyone who use skip... It would be like a Tsunami, we would just notice it from our POV when it is too late. We already own this division to deal, let just not make it worst ok?
What is your implication here, that I haven't thought about things, or that I don't think about things? Please, do not insult me by implying either one of those things!

Infact, I'm fairly confident I know who it is, but that is based on an assumption (that well-respected veteran players won't skip their own team-mates after agreeing not to), and other observations. Notice how I am not naming this person...
a) because I cannot be 100% sure,
b) because I have no desire to start a vendetta, abuse this person or make their life difficult in anyway - I simply wish to avoid them!
Sorry if that sounded wrong or strange for you, i just meant that, you should not take haste conclusions pointing at someone if you don't know exactly what is happening on the other sides. The easiest thing is to think only one did that, but what if more than one done that? And blocking one is the easiest part, but how would you provide their redemption?
How is something that all parties agree to a fake agreement? The situation I have described comes under the headings "Verbal contract" "written agreement" and "giving your word". Are all these really meaningless in your eyes?!? You know what, this may not be a perfect world, but some of us choose to operate with honesty and integrity!
Like i said, "i read and accepted the terms of use", someone joined your match, agreeded to your terms on "whatever mode", yet, something outside the proposed terms happened. Why are you surprised??.

Those headlines own no value with people you don't know, or do you imediatly trust on any stranger that goes down the street? Everyone here uses pseudonyms (with few exceptions on this forum) do you really trust your life on everyone? Even on who just joined us today or only on other veterans?

I know very well how bad the world can be, and i'm honest enough to say that i don't trust in someone's word unless that person is deemed trust worthly, and to get that trust, it is needed time, time that someone that is in the block list will not have... So I would be a hipocrate if i just "let it happen" pointing only the good side and not the bad side of this thing.
Again, what is your point here? Yes, I agree, I told fibs as a child. As a teenager I sometimes bigged myself up with exaggerated claims. That was some time ago. So what are you saying, that just because I have done wrong in the past it negates any honesty I have shown since then because I USED to fib??? People learn, grow, develop... you can't use a lack of honesty in someone's past to justify remaining dishonest or to justify other examples of dishonesty!
Implying that you will Ban people that skipped you surelly gives them space to grow up and learn eventually how to get along with you (sarcasm). It's a matter of time, and by blocking someone, that is a time you both will not have. So it is a nice contradiction.
And finally, what is the point of adding in a "grace period" to preserve anonymity in a game where we all use pseudonyms? I have previously mentioned I have no intention of harassment or shredding anybody's reputation, and I imagine that any behaviour that constitutes abuse or harassment will be SWIFTLY dealt with, and rightly so!

The "grace period" is pointless - your side of the division won't want it, and my side of the division won't need it!
As i said before, i'm on neighter side, and i want to give the solution that just does not make any more issues and solve this once for all... Not a one way thing, it must work for everyone.

And why we should keep the anonymity? Simple, let me put a few things:
- Reputation means a lot here: New players are already a "not source of trust" even if they just want to help, take this forum as example. By making another blacklist for skippers in game, how do you expect them to improve and get along if they already come marginalized?

- This will be used by everyone. You seens to think that only you will be using it to block and ignore, but there are people who will go beyond that. If such feature ever come, it must not have such a gross flaw... So better prevent than remediate, as harassed people might prefer to be gone and never return instead of getting along afterwards.

- There are more than 2 types of players: Looks like you think that we have only casual and competitive players. You seens to be a very competitive one to condemn skips, but yet plays casually, don't you think this is proof enough for this?
There is a huge division on multiplayer between people who skip others as soon as they can, and people who would rather wait a little while longer to have a good match.

Some people see skipping as part of the game, a tool to use to gain any advantage. Some of us accept that real life happens and perhaps a bit of patience is the best choice.
Skip is a part of the game, what i see is that you want the ones who skip to be guilty that we don't made our turn in time bcz our priority is the life, not the game... Like you said before, is their right to do so.... So i don't understand where you want to reach, i gave you the solution that makes people exercise the patience you have been looking in exchange of their anonymous skip while if they decide to not do so and skip on that period, their name would be reveiled for you... What else do you want?
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Squirrel5555 »

"Neither side"

Why do you think it is someones right to "grow up and learn eventually how go get along with you". If someone betrays my trust, even in such a minor thing as in a video game where we all gave our word, I should be able to choose if I want to interact with them anymore. And you seem to think the player will learn to not skip, even though we dont know who it was due to the anonymity and therefore cant teach him to do otherwise. Now that is a nice contradicton.

"Reputation means a lot here" except people cant make a bad reputation of themselves as of now because their nicknames are hidden. Now that is a nice contradiction.

I think everyones priority is life, but the point is that in phoenixe's game there was an agreement, a promise, and he wants to know who broke it, quite rightly. You say, "reputation is important here" yet you are okay with lying just because you are behind a screen.

And most importantly, you seem to be missing that this is best for both parties. I know that I often wont be able to do my turn on time, so I want to know who would be okay with waiting for me to finish my turn longer than normal. I wouldn't want a relatively new player to come into one of my matches and have to wait a few days each turn or skip because it will end up not being fun for both of us. You seem to assume we want this solely for situations when the person skipping becomes condemned.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

Going in circles once more...
Squirrel5555 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:30 pm "Neither side"

Why do you think it is someones right to "grow up and learn eventually how go get along with you". If someone betrays my trust, even in such a minor thing as in a video game where we all gave our word, I should be able to choose if I want to interact with them anymore. And you seem to think the player will learn to not skip, even though we dont know who it was due to the anonymity and therefore cant teach him to do otherwise. Now that is a nice contradicton.
Wrong... You think people don't sense if something is strange around them? You don't need to interact with anyone you don't want, don't you know that? If you think that someone is a skipper, make a mental note on him untill you have sure, if you don't like some person and that person joined your match, you can eighter just boycot him resigning every time he gets in your match... If that person want to have "the good match" with you, he will surelly understand that something is wrong and ask what is going on, to learn your terms and follow them.
... as of now because their nicknames are hidden.

Wrong, Your first contact with the comunity and other players is your nickname... So for skipping yes, names are hidden for a good reason as there will be hotheaded people that want to retaliate for that, but yet, you don't need to be a exposed to have bad reputation, so let's just not give them the tools to make the harassment happen.
I think everyones priority is life, but the point is that in phoenixe's game there was an agreement, a promise, and he wants to know who broke it, quite rightly. You say, "reputation is important here" yet you are okay with lying just because you are behind a screen
The point is, it is not their fault to skip us if we didn't took our turn in time!!! There is a message before entering a match who beg us to do our part if and as soon as possible... So Why does the person who got skipped should be given the right to retaliate that?

Did you really read everything i said here on this tread? Me providing a solution that will ensure that these promisses/agreement to be followed own no value to you? Yeah, both of us are behind screens, but none of us is forced to follow what do one and another does think, what is my guarantee that what you are saying is truth while what is your guarantee that what i'm saying is truth if all we have are just these words? Your sole word? Ha, don't make me laugh, this is the internet after all... What is my guarantee that you are not lying today to take advantage tomorrow? What is my guarantee that you are you and not someone that you allowed to enter or someone that hijacked your account? What is my guarantee that you of tomorrow will keep the same opinion of the you of today? So yeah, i prefer something like a feature of the game than one stranger words to ensure that one thing is running as it should.
And most importantly, you seem to be missing that this is best for both parties. I know that I often wont be able to do my turn on time, so I want to know who would be okay with waiting for me to finish my turn longer than normal. I wouldn't want a relatively new player who likes to skip to come into one of my matches and having to wait a few days each turn, because it will end not being fun for us both...

For real? So why is this mechanic that i suggested is able to provide what you need to do exactly that? Did you stopped to think about it or you just can't handle it? You criticize a lot but i still didn't see your suggestions around trying to fix the issue while trying to please everyone. I'm not assuming anything about what will happen... How do you expect to finish a math count if you just ignore all variables? Murphy Law man...
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Squirrel5555 »

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:17 pm Yeah, both of us are behind screens, but none of us is forced to follow what do one and another does think, what is my guarantee that what you are saying is truth while what is your guarantee that what i'm saying is truth if all we have are just these words? Your sole word? Ha, don't make me laugh, this is the internet after all... What is my guarantee that you are not lying today to take advantage tomorrow? What is my guarantee that you are you and not someone that you allowed to enter or someone that hijacked your account? What is my guarantee that you of tomorrow will keep the same opinion of the you of today? So yeah, i prefer something like a feature of the game than one stranger words to ensure that one thing is running as it should
:lol: What does any of this have to do with multiple people reaching an agreement and then one of them breaking it? It is okay because we don't personally know each other? You really see nothing wrong with this? A promise is a promise, and a liar is a liar, whether it is online or not, whether I know the person or not and it is something most people would consider.

"You don't need to interact with anyone you don't want to" Yet I can do nothing to stop them from joining my games other than adding a password(preventing new players from being able to play) or reseting each time the player joins(very annoying and forces everyone else to rejoin also, wasting a lot of time). Not to mention I can't easily find out who the offender is(a point you also keep dodging as if your life depended on it).

You clearly see only the worst in people, sadly. While showing someones nickname when they interact within a game is not bad in itself, you only look upon one side of the argument.

I haven't said that the player who skips is in the wrong (unless there was a promise made), but you keep coming back to this because your arguments only apply in this one twisted case. One player getting angry because he got skipped does not equate to the whole community getting angry. You might aswell argue that the main chat should get removed from the game because "it gives people the tools to harass". Yours is such a weak straw man argument.

The solution is to show the nicks of those who skip, and leave it at that. As I said(and you ignored) it would be a useful change for all, though you only see the negatives. I think you can tell what I think of your solution by the fact I am still discussing this even though you are clearly too far gone to convince...
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

:lol: What does any of this have to do with multiple people reaching an agreement and then one of them breaking it? It is okay because we don't personally know each other? You really see nothing wrong with this? A promise is a promise, and a liar is a liar, whether it is online or not, whether I know the person or not and it is something most people would consider.

From what i understand, one/those people never agreed to begin, and what makes you think I aprove lies and breaks of promisse? Just because i'm showing the other side? I guess you don't read at all... For me, what is wrong is wrong... But you are implying that if someones lied a few times or broken his promisses early in his life will make him a compulsive lier without possibility of turning on a good person with time? So a newbie who recently created his account can never became a good player in the future because he made a few skips in the past? Don't you think that is excessive grudge and selfish?
"You don't need to interact with anyone you don't want to" Yet I can do nothing to stop them from joining my games other than adding a password(preventing new players from being able to play) or reseting each time the player joins(very annoying and forces everyone else to rejoin also, wasting a lot of time). Not to mention I can't easily find out who the offender is(a point you also keep dodging as if your life depended on it).

Well, i offered to reveal who is the ofender on the grace period several times, so i don't dodged as you said, but yet, you refused it, and who is dodging to talk about the negative side of exposition is not me, but you... Anyway, at that point, i'm pretty sure you already found "the player" you have been looking for. But unlike if you knew who was the one you were looking, the one that you would block in the first oportunity, you gave several chances for that person to get along and redeemn, can you see the difference between one and another or no? So, yeah you surelly can block that person on your case.
You clearly see only the worst in people, sadly. While showing someones nickname when they interact within a game is not bad in itself, you only look upon one side of the argument.

One side of the argument? Strange, you had been neglecting the consequences of that from the very beggining and I AM the one who is ignoring the good side of it? :lol: I can point more examples than harassment on negatives, what about the good sides? Can you tell me what else you would do aside blocking some people if you can know who skipped? No right? The only function of that is the only good point of this. And no matter how good are your intentions with these, some people will still use it bad. That's why i said it must not have gross flaws like the way you want.

Anyway, If you say that you always see only the good side of the things, you probably get disapointed and shocked very often when things out of your control don't get in the way you want, right?
I haven't said that the player who skips is in the wrong (unless there was a promise made), but you keep coming back to this because your arguments only apply in this one twisted case. One player getting angry because he got skipped does not equate to the whole community getting angry. You might aswell argue that the main chat should get removed from the game because "it gives people the tools to harass". Yours is such a weak straw man argument.

I'm not returning to this subject, i answered it several times, but you keep implying that over and over, so i will repeat one last time, one avoidable problem does not need several chances to happen, it will happen on its on given oportunity, if a problem reaches the surface, it is already too late since the damage is already done... Btw, it seens you like harassment, and it seens you will ignore when seeing it happening, otherwise this subject would not be here with you trying to neglect it.
The solution is to show the nicks of those who skip, and leave it at that. As I said(and you ignored) it would be a useful change for all, though you only see the negatives. I think you can tell what I think of your solution by the fact I am still discussing this even though you are clearly too far gone to convince...

Wait, do you really thinks that i want to convince you or someone else? I've just put the variables on the table, it is your duty to believe or not bcz i can't do that for you, and since more people showed up before and after this with different opinions about that... The straight "show the nickname" clearly is not the right aproach for this like you fiercely believe... And I don't ignored, i simply showed it alone does not work, and also does bring a negative side that overlaps the good one but you refuse to discuss that to begin.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

@DoomsdayDragonfire
I have not once said that I want to ban someone who has skipped me. I have described the people I wish to add to my ban list with words like "skip happy", "repeat offenders", "skip merchants" and "those who cannot be trusted". I am not on a petty quest for vengeance, I just want to avoid a cetrain mentality.

I don't understand why you think someone didn't agree in this case. Everyone, all 6 of us, did agree. I could take screenshots of the in-game chat that shows that all 6 of us were in agreement (in just a couple of lines, not 28 pages of T&Cs!)

The problem with anonymity is that it leads to no accountability for one's actions. It is anonymity that allows Internet trolls to be so hateful. It is the anonymity of being in a crowd that leads to mob mentality. The anonymity of masks protects robbers or hooligans. Unless people can be connected with their actions they can disassociate themselves from the consequences.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I put someone on my ban list, presumably that means they are only excluded from games I set up? That still leaves many games to join. And if I later meet that person in another game and see they have changed, I would un-ban them.

All of us in the conversation agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with skipping, which is why we don't want to cause trouble or kick up a fuss with those who skip. It is just that some of us would rather play in a safe environment. Let us say 8 hours work plus 8 hours sleep. Plus time with children, or friends, or walking the dog. Plus cooking, eating, shopping, housework. Plus other hobbies. Plus special events such as a gig or a big match. Plus unforeseen circumstances...it is inevitable that sometimes there simply won't be enough time in the day.

I only wish to do what I have done all my life, and choose who I spend time and play with, based on their interactions with myself and others, and their values and behaviours. I don't want to close myself off to the world, I just want to keep people who's actions I consider undesirable away from me.
I also play an RTS game called Life 8-)
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

I have not once said that I want to ban someone who has skipped me. I have described the people I wish to add to my ban list with words like "skip happy", "repeat offenders", "skip merchants" and "those who cannot be trusted". I am not on a petty quest for vengeance, I just want to avoid a cetrain mentality.
I know that you will not, my concern is not with you, but with who would eventually use it for doing that. Because of few that some limitations must be settled on that for the sake of everyone.
I don't understand why you think someone didn't agree in this case. Everyone, all 6 of us, did agree. I could take screenshots of the in-game chat that shows that all 6 of us were in agreement (in just a couple of lines, not 28 pages of T&Cs!)

Because the damage was already been done on your match on the first oportunity possible. Otherwise you would probably not bring that example here.
The problem with anonymity is that it leads to no accountability for one's actions. It is anonymity that allows Internet trolls to be so hateful. It is the anonymity of being in a crowd that leads to mob mentality. The anonymity of masks protects robbers or hooligans. Unless people can be connected with their actions they can disassociate themselves from the consequences.


The problem is not the anonymity, the problem is the person, like a gun, it alone does nothing, who bears it is the problem, so you don't need to be anonymous to be hateful, hate exists way before internet even existed, pople does it all the time and it is not because they are exposed that would end that, criminals robs with or without masks, some if not mostly all, openly brags about it... I know you don't want to be near these people, but my concern as i stated above, is not you or anyone here, but with who will eventually use it to provoke things we not endorse and don't want to see in our game.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I put someone on my ban list, presumably that means they are only excluded from games I set up? That still leaves many games to join. And if I later meet that person in another game and see they have changed, I would un-ban them.

Yep. But well, i never meet someone that made that before on this skipping subject, people make everything as excuse when not winning, using mercenaries, fun units on a spell enabled game, even owning and using coolguy was reason to be banned by some people some time ago, you might be mature enough to know that unban button exist, but sadly, most of people are not yet on that level.
All of us in the conversation agree that there is nothing inherently wrong with skipping, which is why we don't want to cause trouble or kick up a fuss with those who skip. It is just that some of us would rather play in a safe environment. Let us say 8 hours work plus 8 hours sleep. Plus time with children, or friends, or walking the dog. Plus cooking, eating, shopping, housework. Plus other hobbies. Plus special events such as a gig or a big match. Plus unforeseen circumstances...it is inevitable that sometimes there simply won't be enough time in the day.
Yep, i understand that, the safe enviroement is what i'm looking for, and it is for that reason that i don't want to let this be used to break the safety of this enviroement. So it must be adapted in a way that works for everyone, without expoitable flaws.
I only wish to do what I have done all my life, and choose who I spend time and play with, based on their interactions with myself and others, and their values and behaviours. I don't want to close myself off to the world, I just want to keep people who's actions I consider undesirable away from me.
I guess my coments above answer this, all i can say is to wish you fun. ;)
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Squirrel5555 »

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm From what i understand, one/those people never agreed to begin, and what makes you think I aprove lies and breaks of promisse?
I think this clearly shows you only read what you want to see, considering me and phoenix have stated otherwise in every singe message sent on this topic in the past few days.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm But you are implying that if someones lied a few times or broken his promisses early in his life will make him a compulsive lier without possibility of turning on a good person with time?
Once again, you see only what you want to see. I never implied anything like that, but it would be like you to emphasize it out of proportion to prove a point, wouldn't it? I merely said, if someone (even online, which you find outrageous) gives me their word, and then clearly breaks it, then I should be ABLE to CHOOSE if I want to continue interacting with them or not, I NEVER say that I would immediately ban them.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm and who is dodging to talk about the negative side of exposition is not me, but you
Aha, so what have my last few paragraph long post been about? If I remember correctly, I was addressing the negative side of things almost exclusively and trying to tell you that things are not as bad as you think they are (Still dodging my point about how much effort it is to avoid a player I don't want to play with, especially if I can't find out who they are).
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm Can you tell me what else you would do aside blocking some people if you can know who skipped? No right?
Once again, you ignore everything that you can't answer. The last thing I talked about on my post is a major positive of what showing the name would allow, and I mention how I DON'T think skipping is bad. Though you still seem to see me as some bloodthirsty, hateful person with an agenda to boot all players who make use of the skip function from the game...(conveniently because it suits your baseless arguments?)
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm Btw, it seens you like harassment, and it seens you will ignore when seeing it happening, otherwise this subject would not be here with you trying to neglect it.
Hah, I don't know whether to laugh or cry here. You say I neglect the subject of harassment while replying to my point about harassment. And I would like to see your response to the main chat staying in the game. Surely it can also lead to harassment, "it will happen on its own give opportunity", and much more easily than a system of blocking people from joining your games? So should we also remove the main chat? Murphy Law man...
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm Wait, do you really thinks that i want to convince you or someone else?

When did I say this?
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm i simply showed it alone does not work, and also does bring a negative side that overlaps the good one but you refuse to discuss that to begin
If I remember correctly, "i simply showed it alone does not work" means you rambling on about how it COULD lead to minor harassment, ignoring how there are tools for that already in the game, should anyone be messed up enough to do it. And once again, you either ignore my points because you can't answer them, or don't read at all, I think we have almost exclusively been discussing the negative side of my idea.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:50 am The problem is not the anonymity, the problem is the person, like a gun, it alone does nothing, who bears it is the problem, so you don't need to be anonymous to be hateful, hate exists way before internet even existed, pople does it all the time and it is not because they are exposed that would end that,
Yeah that is not the point we are trying to make. If we showed their name we would be able to prevent their hatefulness, whether by blocking them or trying to explain something to them.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:50 am you might be mature enough to know that unban button exist, but sadly, most of people are not yet on that level.
Okay, but you still act as if everyone you add on your ban list has a right to eventually get unbanned, when actually it should fully be up to the person creating the ban list to decide who he wants to interact with. You seem to act as if putting someone on your ban list and excluding them from your games is a form of harassment, when actually it just allows for fun games to form more easily.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by tamtam12345 »

I have an idea. Why don't we add a checkbox sth like "Show who skip you/others in this game" (function like map visiblity) when a player open the table. (If it is possible...)

If some players want to hide their identity/ think their actions are right, they can create another table.

Everyone will be happy. Right? :)

p.s. I completely agreed with DoomsdayDragonfire's view.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

I think this clearly shows you only read what you want to see, considering me and phoenix have stated otherwise in every singe message sent on this topic in the past few days.
To begin, both of us aren't on his match, I'm pretty sure that is more suitable for you and let me tell you why, on every story, there are 3 or more sides, side A, side B and what really happened, you choose to believe side A with phoenix version, i choose to not take sides with the fact is that skips happened and none of us will know the sides of the other 5 players and their reasons to skip or not.
Once again, you see only what you want to see. I never implied anything like that, but it would be like you to emphasize it out of proportion to prove a point, wouldn't it? I merely said, if someone (even online, which you find outrageous) gives me their word, and then clearly breaks it, then I should be ABLE to CHOOSE if I want to continue interacting with them or not, I NEVER say that I would immediately ban them.

And i openly said that you will do use it to do blocks or not? I simply said that making drama out of someone not following an agreement of someone roleplay while branding someone without firstly admiting that you never had lied at least once in your life surelly implies that you think you are somewhat superior to everyone else and have a moral highground over the person to judge and make drama over the skips of the others even if it is their right to do so... Phoenix did his statement, but i didn't seen yours...
Anyway with this feature you can do 2 things, 1° ignore and use it to block the underisable player and 2° use it to good or bad, being teaching or retaliate. And i already stated my concern here.
Aha, so what have my last few paragraph long post been about? If I remember correctly, I was addressing the negative side of things almost exclusively and trying to tell you that things are not as bad as you think they are (Still dodging my point about how much effort it is to avoid a player I don't want to play with, especially if I can't find out who they are).

About going in circles, as i gave your answer several posts ago, you attempted to minimize it and i showed that you didn't scrached the surface of it, i'm still waiting your answer about that. And i already provided some tips about your effort. As you said before, you can discover the names already, it is just hard. For this reason you need this feature to find out faster. So i don't think i need to answer if you already done that for me... And on the meantime, i told that if you know who is the skipper, you already labeled him as such, even if you try to correct him, that stigma stays for a while, in other hand, if you don't know who the person is, you will give several chances to who you have been looking for improve without any pre-judgement. I asked you if you knew this, but you also did not answered it...
Once again, you ignore everything that you can't answer. The last thing I talked about on my post is a major positive of what showing the name would allow, and I mention how I DON'T think skipping is bad. Though you still seem to see me as some bloodthirsty, hateful person with an agenda to boot all players who make use of the skip function from the game...(conveniently because it suits your baseless arguments?)
Did I? You mentioned your opinion about skip on your second post here, do i really need to answer again or you didn't noticed that i agreed with that on the following posts? And didn't i just mentioned earlier that my concern is not with anyone here (including you) but with who would eventually use that for the wrong reasons or you forget that? But i see that you keep some grudge from me for some reason. Since your guess about me was that i want to put you as some sort of villain here, well i can't do that for you, but if it happens, it would be because of yourself.
Hah, I don't know whether to laugh or cry here. You say I neglect the subject of harassment while replying to my point about harassment. And I would like to see your response to the main chat staying in the game. Surely it can also lead to harassment, "it will happen on its own give opportunity", and much more easily than a system of blocking people from joining your games? So should we also remove the main chat? Murphy Law man...

Probably cry man... Probably cry...
Well your comment was just about minimalize the problem in all ways possible, so yeah, negligence, and i don't get what do you want to bring the main chat? But if you really want to know what i think about the main chat, i will be brief, there was a time where only 2 players filtered it, it was a wild west and lot of things happened, now there are several people around for that with moderation powers ready to prevent that from happening. At least there... So your argument is both outdated and irrelevant.. Anyway, the players don't just have the main chat, people have many other ways to do so, you can't police every in-game chat on every game and outside the game on the comunities to prevent stuff from happening, you will only see untill the affected bring it up, and most of times, it is already late when it happens.
When did I say this?
I literally quoted it from the last part of your post from yesterday..
Here:
I think you can tell what I think of your solution by the fact I am still discussing this even though you are clearly too far gone to convince...
If I remember correctly, "i simply showed it alone does not work" means you rambling on about how it COULD lead to minor harassment, ignoring how there are tools for that already in the game, should anyone be messed up enough to do it. And once again, you either ignore my points because you can't answer them, or don't read at all, I think we have almost exclusively been discussing the negative side of my idea.

I as mentioned above, main chat moderation does not cover everywhere. Just the tip of the iceberg... My point is to prevent it from happening from the very beggining and not to pay to see like you... And ofc there is an emphasis on "Could", this is not a feature in game yet... "Should be anyone be messed up enough to do it". Ofc man, you clearly don't take this seriously to think it could not happen, little you know, but it already happened in the past, and you have no clue how much harassment does affect kids and victms with depression...
Yeah that is not the point we are trying to make. If we showed their name we would be able to prevent their hatefulness, whether by blocking them or trying to explain something to them.
Again, my concern is not the veterans that will teach ethical guidelines. Don't you realised that feature will be used by who got skipped to retaliate the skipper?
Okay, but you still act as if everyone you add on your ban list has a right to eventually get unbanned, when actually it should fully be up to the person creating the ban list to decide who he wants to interact with. You seem to act as if putting someone on your ban list and excluding them from your games is a form of harassment, when actually it just allows for fun games to form more easily.

Well i don't worry with anyone who enter on my matches, if it is a match that they want, is a match that they get... So from me, a block never happened. And who is used to block, some yes, some not, i'm not in position to judge the reasons that made it reach that point... I'm up to save as many people as i can, about what i think about your blocks, it seens you totally missed that point, i have answered so many times this same thing already... I don't see your blocks as bad or harassment, like skips, it is a part of the game, so you can block everyone as you please, my main concern is not who will chill or preach after been skipped, but who will use it to retaliate, harass and other things...
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

tamtam12345 wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:40 am I have an idea. Why don't we add a checkbox sth like "Show who skip you/others in this game" (function like map visiblity) when a player open the table. (If it is possible...)

If some players want to hide their identity/ think their actions are right, they can create another table.

Everyone will be happy. Right? :)

p.s. I completely agreed with DoomsdayDragonfire's view.
Seens simple enough, just confirm one thing:
- That checkbox would be, on the options when creating the match right? Bcz when you said table, it could be applied to the skip box, and if everyone can just check it to hide on their turn, there would not be much reason to have it.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Squirrel5555 »

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm I literally quoted it from the last part of your post from yesterday..
Here:
You quote me saying that I am trying to convince you, I never said you are trying to convince someone.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm Since your guess about me was that i want to put you as some sort of villain here, well i can't do that for you, but if it happens, it would be because of yourself.
Let's look back at something you said a few posts back, using the word "seems" does not make this any less offensive:
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:22 pm Btw, it seens you like harassment, and it seens you will ignore when seeing it happening
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm Well your comment was just about minimalize the problem in all ways possible, so yeah, negligence
The real question is whether I am minimizing the problem, or are you just taking it out of proportion?
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm Should be anyone be messed up enough to do it
This does not mean I believe it will not happen, like you seem to think. It is me expressing that it is a rare occurence (that does not meaning I am taking it lightly).
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm Again, my concern is not the veterans that will teach ethical guidelines. Don't you realised that feature will be used by who got skipped to retaliate the skipper?
It COULD. In my arguments I acknowledge this. But my point is the benefits outweigh the downsides of this system.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm At least there... So your argument is both outdated and irrelevant
I don't believe moderators are on 24/7, and I dont believe they moderate in game chats. So it is not irrelevant or outdated, especially since there are still moments when a player/players complain about someone else.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm To begin, both of us aren't on his match, I'm pretty sure that is more suitable for you and let me tell you why, on every story, there are 3 or more sides
Come on now, stop with this. If you still don't believe him then take him up on his offer of screenshots instead of relying on fabricated "what if" and "we don't know" scenarios.
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:00 pm someone without firstly admiting that you never had lied at least once in your life surelly implies that you think you are somewhat superior to everyone else and have a moral highground over the person to judge and make drama over the skips of the others even if it is their right to do so...
And again with the personal insults. What else do you want me to say? "Hello guys, I am a human being", because if I don't you might say I think I am superior to everyone else? Not like you would believe me:
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:17 pm what is my guarantee that what you are saying is truth while what is your guarantee that what i'm saying is truth if all we have are just these words? Your sole word? Ha, don't make me laugh, this is the internet after all... What is my guarantee that you are not lying today to take advantage tomorrow? What is my guarantee that you are you and not someone that you allowed to enter or someone that hijacked your account? What is my guarantee that you of tomorrow will keep the same opinion of the you of today?
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Squirrel5555 »

I hope that clears some things up, maybe we are seeing each other in a negative light because of the layers of sarcasm. Just wanted to say I have nothing against you :D
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by tamtam12345 »

DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:18 pm Seens simple enough, just confirm one thing:
- That checkbox would be, on the options when creating the match right? Bcz when you said table, it could be applied to the skip box, and if everyone can just check it to hide on their turn, there would not be much reason to have it.
Of course. It is a option only when the table holder create the match. Other joiners couldn't change (tick/untick) that box.
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

Squirrel5555 wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:41 pm You quote me saying that I am trying to convince you, I never said you are trying to convince someone.
Nope indeed, I complemented saying that it does not apply only to you, this is a public post after all.
Let's look back at something you said a few posts back, using the word "seems" does not make this any less offensive:
Is it my fault that you see the word "seens" not as it is? If you don't know it is used for assumptions, guesses, not affirmations or statements as you think they are... Don't misunderstand the things next time ok?
The real question is whether I am minimizing the problem, or are you just taking it out of proportion...

This does not mean I believe it will not happen, like you seem to think. It is me expressing that it is a rare occurence (that does not meaning I am taking it lightly).
It already happened, so for me doesn't matter what is the chance of happening again, i refuse to let it happen once more.
It COULD. In my arguments I acknowledge this. But my point is the benefits outweigh the downsides of this system.
You know what i think here.
I don't believe moderators are on 24/7, and I dont believe they moderate in game chats. So it is not irrelevant or outdated, especially since there are still moments when a player/players complain about someone else.

Your point was about the main chat, not the in-game chats and other sources as i mentioned earlier. But if you want to discuss chats in general, create a new topic for it. I have many ideas to share on that part.
Come on now, stop with this. If you still don't believe him then take him up on his offer of screenshots instead of relying on fabricated "what if" and "we don't know" scenarios.
Little would be changed. As he would be complementing his side of the history. What i would like to hear is the version of the other players aswell.
And again with the personal insults. What else do you want me to say? "Hello guys, I am a human being", because if I don't you might say I think I am superior to everyone else? Not like you would believe me
Insults? Do you feel insulted by hypotesys? Is that it? Again, you misunderstand a guess by an affirmation... Like i said, only you can do that if you really continue to confirm my assumptions like this...
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Re: Who skipped?

Post by Dagravian »

tamtam12345 wrote: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:22 am
DoomsdayDragonfire wrote: Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:18 pm Seens simple enough, just confirm one thing:
- That checkbox would be, on the options when creating the match right? Bcz when you said table, it could be applied to the skip box, and if everyone can just check it to hide on their turn, there would not be much reason to have it.
Of course. It is a option only when the table holder create the match. Other joiners couldn't change (tick/untick) that box.
Great :lol:
No complains here.
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