Random TC spawn... is there a better way?

[phoenixffyrnig]

What is the formula for TC spawn in MP games? Tbh, I have seen it serve up some shockers recently - in some cases the game is already won and lost before it is played due to an unequal TC spread, and some maps are actually unplayable because of an inevitable imbalance in TC distribution.

It would seem to be it is loosely based on some sort of spatial algorithm, but this does not take into account things like mountains, bodies of water, or other obstacles. Some TCs can be nearby as the crow flies, but many turns away as an army marches. And sometimes there is a huge mismatch in geographical distribution too, eg one match I am in has 2 TCs in 1 quadrant, 0 in another, 1 in another, and 5 in the last quadrant! That is a game killing imbalance.

As well, we have recently had roads that improve movement, and woods that impair movement. Obviously a TC 10 squares away by road and a TC 10 squares away through woodland differ hugely in accessibility, but this does not seem to be reflected in the TC distribution. The discrepancies are more stark with few TCs and smaller maps. Imo, chance is playing too big a part in determining the outcome of a game.

Is there a way of adjusting TC spawn so that it is more based on distance travelled from a player's start point rather than a loose X Y displacement that does not take into consideration the terrain of the map?

[godOfKings]

Well the tcs in the middle between players will always have some disputes and randomness, but there r still ways to take back tcs even close to opponent side, like in forests u can use 4 speed infantry and drummer, in water, transport ship and wagon combo, send the right soldiers that can ezly kill the explorers ur opponent likely used to capture the tcs, the only time it was really unfair for me was wen i started in a small island and i was blocked by water in front and mountain behind so it took a long time to capture the other tcs near my own base... but it was still a rare situation

Also there r other units that can improve speed like bard spell that can also aid horses

[makazuwr32]

You always can make more maps with preset tc placement and preset spawn locations to avoid randomness in generation.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Thanks GoK, but I wasn't asking for tips, I was stating with reasons and examples why the current system is sometimes utterly ruining games before they start. I agree with you, there are definitely ways of overcoming slight imbalances, but there are also occasions when the whole deck can be stacked against you. It's not the challenge that annoys me, but the foregone conclusions, both for and against me.

You always can make more maps with preset tc placement and preset spawn locations to avoid randomness in generation.

Cheers Mak, I am playing around a bit with ME. Question for you (or anyone else) - when selecting maps for a game we have a category of "Preset Multiplayer" - fixed TCs and fixed number of players, presumably this a Skirmish Map in ME? And we also have "Preset TCs" where TCs are fixed (and/or tied in with number of players) and number of players can be chosen by the game creator. How would I make one of these maps, are these Random Maps with random TC spawn over-ridden somehow?

[makazuwr32]

Preset tc placement + preset amount of players abd such — this way map is made as skirmish one.

Alas on random maps you also can make similar effect:
1. Manually place tcs — this prevents random tc generation. Even 1 tc;
2. There are 3 "units" in buildings section, when they are placed on random map they set somewhat around their placement spawn poiny of players. All 3 must be presented 2 times each to work correct.

I like more skirmish maps since they also allow usage of triggers unlike random games (even with such additions).

[phoenixffyrnig]

Nice, that's the juicy info I was after, thanks mate.

[makazuwr32]

No problems.
If you need some examples of first type maps i made quite a good amount in aof.

Right. About skirmish-type multiplayer maps with preset tc placement and such:
If you place on such map exactly 1 tc for player without ANY other units in that tc will generate units you choose upon game creation.
If you place unpder player's control more than 1 empty tc than those units for that specific player will not generate.

[andysensei]

https://ibb.co/88L3yXk
https://ibb.co/pJsvvRK

It seems there has been a very good point made in this thread.

In this example, the first player has close access to 9 TCs (north of map)
the second player has close access to 5 TCs (south of map)

Any other ideas/opinions about the importance of game balance??

[Endru1241]

I have to present some point of view in defence of the engine and stratego.
It close to impossible to take all movement into account.
We have to consider, that engine has to generate tc placement for all variants and all factions/races/whatever else it's named.
What is easily reachable in AoF may be close to impossible in AoS.
What is very fair placement in AoF may be a nightmare for AoWW.
Even if engine would use current movement calculation - it already has some imperfections.
And if it would also have to consider how easily accessible is any given unit we'd face such complicated problem that solving it may be well over capabilities of our phones, assuming that it could be even thought over, considering how hard it is to deal with complex math problems (most accessible solutions use very specific libraries, very often inaccessible in many programming languages).

And trying to simplify can be disastrous in upcoming changes.

[makazuwr32]

Which is why i propose to make more skirmish-type maps.
They do not have a problem with tc generation at all due to the fact of completely excluding tc generation from the equation.

In aof i am making more sets of skirmish-type maps for multiplayer.

[mickmackmike]

It's been a couple of years since I last posted, but this is a real issue in the game.
Too many games are lost or won before the game starts simply on terrible random TC placement.
This is more of an issue now as we have a lot more and a lot better group of players so TC variance is now much more of a big deal.


1. Preset TC locations at least for some maps would make sense
2. Because it may be difficult to do preset TC placement for a variance of players on a map... More multiplayer skirmish maps as suggested above.
2. Being able to choose each turn for each player where to place TCs, but I expect this would take too much development. This would be really good in team games, where balancing sides is important.

3M

[Stratego (dev)]

if someone can write an easy but better algorithm please do so and i will code it.

[phoenixffyrnig]

For reference, what does the current algorithm look like?

[Midonik]

Modders Lounge -> How to's -> Map editor