CoolGuy Balancing IMPLEMENTED

[digimon666]

I will not go into how to rebalance him. I just ask to ban him in normal game, this unit is broken by design.

Reason:
- 2 cost unit that very strong even with proper counter, and those are more expensive. (3 atk from scout cost 3 turn (scout very weak unit) ranger 4, ram 5) unlike other expensive unit like elephant or horse unit that can be cheaply countered by halbs and halbs countered by ranged unit and lastly ranged unit countered by horse keeping the balance of the game.
- high atk guy like cannon only come late game
- and even then youre doing it wrong if he get attacked, his main purpose is sitting at the back and abusing his aura that triple the value of worker making siege You can read it as making 1 catapult per turn with only 6 extra worker (up to maximum 4,3 catapult per turn with 28 worker given space combination, normally 28 worker can only churn out 1,75 per turn)
- now his +2 range aura. Longbowman need 11 turn to get it. Now our catapult only need 2 turn to get 10 range?. 12 range trebuchet? Sign me up. Oh dont forget about attack instinct firing to fog.
- the unfair thing is it is easter eggs unit and legendary

When there is house rule that banned him, we know that it is almost beyond saving.

The must have nerf is making him unique instead of legendary. (Mind you the only unique unit we have now that i know is 10 cost unit ) we can talk from there since i am sure everyone and their mother will run it.

[Hyuhjhih]

You can read it as making 1 catapult per turn with only 6 extra worker (up to maximum 4,3 catapult per turn with 28 worker given space combination, normally 28 worker can only churn out 1,75 per turn)

Digi, you should have tested it before bothering about some figures.

There is no need to ban coolguy imo. May be reduce att 9 》6 or 7.

[digimon666]

I prefer if you bring some number instead of attacking me personally by saying to test it.

For an unit that is only one per game it is either broken and someone complaining, or underwhelm and no one care. Considering there issome that use house rule forbid him i will leave in your imagination

And your suggestion to nerf really explain how wrong you are when using him.

I cant bring the comparison since his aura is unique so there is that.

[Badnorth]

More ee units will come later on so Imo unique category will just be a hard addition for it. Players will have their usable ee units once they found the easter eggs. CoolGuy is just a common easter egg unit most players have since some dudes have been spreading the word.

Damage decrease Is not even a decent nerf because CoolGuy isn't made to be in the frontlines, he is a support unit to siege machines of all kind. He should be at the back near some trebuchets, hwacha's and Cannoneers, his damage is not even a threat, the aura is.

Siege aura is definitely op, I can't deny that. CoolGuy near trebs can immediately decimate structures and mega buildings, trebs will have even more range near CG making them sit at the back, when protected (Which is most likely) it'll become unreachable by the enemy's forces. A good CG user can be a hard opponent.

Btw, CG near hwacha's will eliminate everything that is not a fortified building or an armoured siege machine and above. Anti-ranged units like skirmisher will even have a hard time surviving a wave.

CoolGuy will probably stay op unless there are more ee units available that is on the same level as him or he gets a nerf.

An option in multiplayer match create that will ban all ee units would be nice. Some of my games have CG as a banned unit which makes fights more interesting and fair.

[digimon666]

All more reason to ban ee unit, easter egg unit must not be strong by design.

Also seriously legendary unit as a concept is flawed by design. And i will be dissapointed if thats the direction for all future ee unit. Unique is where it should be at.

[Hyuhjhih]

I prefer if you bring some number instead of attacking me personally by saying to test it.

For an unit that is only one per game it is either broken and someone complaining, or underwhelm and no one care. Considering there issome that use house rule forbid him i will leave in your imagination

And your suggestion to nerf really explain how wrong you are when using him.

I cant bring the comparison since his aura is unique so there is that.

Hey chill dude. No offense. I was just surprised by the term

75 per turn

and i just wanted you to confirm the digits .

I suggested a decreased att so a dog wont be one shot by CG while it remains the most effective anti-counters.
And hence a knockback and a normal attack from a dog is potentially fatal for CG.

The siege bonus, yeah i agree its OP. But considering only 1rng. Only four siege can be benefited from it (while CG is legendary) at a time. And the boost is almost same as the 3 tier of the sieges. So imo CG wont need a buff nor nerf.

The Legendary issues, i haven't seen someone {in about one year of my experience, and as far as i remember, i have played against you with a coolguy before i find mine, ie, you grabbed CG way before me} so longing for getting CG and painfully waiting till my CG dies so he can readily train it. The EE, imo , should always remain Legendary. So when more of the ee coming, the llayer can choose which EE he/she want to use in the match. And about unique categories, a bunch of em are already on suggestions.

[Badnorth]

The maximum use of siege equipment by using coolguy is 16 (Without deleting). 4 from the start, +4 by moving the siege out and placing more In, Move CG to the next 4 siege machines on standby and move them once used and place the other 4 in. Very op once u get enough siege machines like Treb and cannoneer.

I agree that ALL ee units should remain legendary. Unique is just not their thing. And ban them in normal games will just make them worse than a FUN unit. Disagreement there. I only suggest an option to ban them on games, players with no ee unit of somesort will deem this useful in multiplayer. Some other thing that might be a good idea can change my mind. This is my suggestion for now.

[digimon666]

Thats not how coolguy work. Coolguy siege bonus work if he move into adjacent siege foundation (not by building siege foundation right beside him)

Given that It is 6 slot to place the coolguy optimally here is the lay out
NWWWN
WWCWW
WCGCW
WWNWW
WWNWW
WCGCW
WWCWW
NWWWN

W= worker
C = catapult
G= the guy place (he move between two batch)
N= empty, can always be filled with worker in this place to switch up

We agree that this need to be adjusted, outright banning him is kind of the point of this thread so thats also where is my stance on this, but my other point is "legendary" units is flawed and can never be balanced by whatever number or other thing that we can modify from those unit. (Unless he has same exact ability and stats as current normal unit)

[DreJaDe]

No

This is already just the same argument as people wanting to ban gem upg units.

They don't have the same unit, so ban them. This is AOS remember. Strategy works even for the loosing side. There's even a given counter that's not in the gem upg anyway.

And no, it's not op. There's no way its OP. What's OP is the cart assassin. And even considering that, its balanced.

[digimon666]

No

This is already just the same argument as people wanting to ban gem upg units.

They don't have the same unit, so ban them. This is AOS remember. Strategy works even for the loosing side. There's even a given counter that's not in the gem upg anyway.

And no, it's not op. There's no way its OP. What's OP is the cart assassin. And even considering that, its balanced.

Oh yeah you are right, i mean there is an option to make a match to ban upgraded thing. I wonder where is the button to ban this op easter unit
I will not comment about your cart assassin stuff, make separate thread please, btw you can also usethat strat instead of this guy

My point is legendary unit will never be balanced. And in this case, he is in op side. Either:
- ban him in normal game
- make him unique

[Aral_Yaren]

As rather new, inexperienced player, I've also found the same issue. Some house -inc me- make a rule to ban EE in game, yet in desperation some folks just broke it. And I talk gemmed game.

So I vote that AoS have to have EE button in game option for those who wants EE played and those who prefer not, for the sake of fair, good and clean game as AoS itself said in other post.

Is it too much to ask, devs?

[Badnorth]

Aral, I was also asking for that. It's good to have someone on the same team.
Again, I do not ask to originally ban them in normal games. Only an option to get ee units banned, because, once the new ee are added we will have our own ee units available per player.

@Stratego (dev) can this be added?
A button in multiplayer game create that will ban all ee units In the whole match.
This will be very useful once the new ee are added. For players who doesn't have an ee of any kind.

[DreJaDe]

Aral, I was also asking for that. It's good to have someone on the same team.
Again, I do not ask to originally ban them in normal games. Only an option to get ee units banned, because, once the new ee are added we will have our own ee units available per player.

@Stratego (dev) can this be added?
A button in multiplayer game create that will ban all ee units In the whole match.
This will be very useful once the new ee are added. For players who doesn't have an ee of any kind.@Stratego (dev)

Yeah, if there's going to be so many EE then I guess it's really needed.

[digimon666]

I prefer if you bring some number instead of attacking me personally by saying to test it.

For an unit that is only one per game it is either broken and someone complaining, or underwhelm and no one care. Considering there issome that use house rule forbid him i will leave in your imagination

And your suggestion to nerf really explain how wrong you are when using him.

I cant bring the comparison since his aura is unique so there is that.

Hey chill dude. No offense. I was just surprised by the term

75 per turn

and i just wanted you to confirm the digits .

I suggested a decreased att so a dog wont be one shot by CG while it remains the most effective anti-counters.
And hence a knockback and a normal attack from a dog is potentially fatal for CG.

The siege bonus, yeah i agree its OP. But considering only 1rng. Only four siege can be benefited from it (while CG is legendary) at a time. And the boost is almost same as the 3 tier of the sieges. So imo CG wont need a buff nor nerf.

Ok i will give you math, i will use catapult since he has highest time to build and assuming you already have ambidextra, he need 1 (laying foundation) and 15 other guy building it (for total of 16). As i mention before coolguy triple the building rate of worker that building this siege foundation thus making him only need 1+5 worker (thats where i got 6 worker)

Now refer to my layout on previous post. With this layout you can triple the value of those worker up to 28 worker working in 6 foundation (not 30 because of the layout) 28/6 is 4,66 (yeah i am wrong but still broken)
Thats where i got the number. Now i will ask, how many game you have that have more than 28 worker building siege unit?

For this building bonus, ambidextra which only has 50% increase (+5 mend rate) need 4 turn to upgrade. Mineral ore, which need 9 turn from mine need to wait 3 turn to generate randomly and only +10 one worker rate that last only 4 turn. Those also apply to building things so there is the negative. Nevertheless those 200% increase also apply on these upgrade (for worker it is +30 mend rate)

Given ambidextra that need 4 turn only increase +5 mend rate, whats the value of +30 mend rate upgrade only for siege up to 28 workers? Is it 2 turn?
Even 16 turn or 10 turn and locked behind gunpowder is still reasonable here.

We dont even started on his siege range increase and his capability on utilizing it.

[Kalistra]

Am I correct in assuming dev units are not allowed in multiplayer? If so, is cool guy included with that? If not he should be as not all of us have found him yet. I have seen a few players abuse him, especially Kommander to win bet games they are losing. I just conceded a bet game to him I was winning after he refused to delete the unfair unit. Someone please adjudicate this! Thanks

[Badnorth]

CoolGuy is an easter egg. Soon more easter eggs will come.
Currently there is one. And the easter egg update will probably come later on.

There is a CoolGuy balance topic, post ideas there.

[Stratego (dev)]

The MAIN task/role of EE units that they are usable everywhere, that is why they should not be op but an intresting unit to use.
so, they must remain in normal games,

if they are felt to be op please talk to Endru to change a little if he agrees

[Stratego (dev)]

and please use proper topic subjects.
i merged it to cooguy topic

[digimon666]

Ok if thats the case, so i will get into second argument

Legendary will never be balanced whatever stats you put it. Either op and someone complaining, or underwhelm and no one care

Unlike some op unit where if imbalanced, it will transform into some kind of mirror match up. There is no "failsafe" for legendary unit where if someone use it, no one else can use it.

Given that, my suggestion is make him so that everyone can use it on a game


Also, here is my nerf suggestion if this guy want to stay in normal game.
- Cost 16 and locked behind gunpowder or just 20 (given the unique unit cost is 10 and it is glorified priest of course legendary unit need more investment)
- increase damage bonus for his weakness unit (scout, ram and ranger) so that scout and ram can one shot him and ranger can two shot him)
- remove +2 siege range aura
-indication from start that someone else started building it when applying to it.

Before reading this nerf suggestion, please read my argument about ambidextra, this seems harsh but the bar is too high from start.

[DreJaDe]

Some of your Nerf suggestion can be approved but definitely not all. That will just loose it's EE factor and will be just a useless unit. It's like scout with 1 sight and 50turns to make.

Definitely, everyone in game should be able to use them if they have already unlocked them.

That's definitely the best balance for it if it isn't already like that.

[digimon666]

Some of your Nerf suggestion can be approved but definitely not all. That will just loose it's EE factor and will be just a useless unit. It's like scout with 1 sight and 50turns to make.

Definitely, everyone in game should be able to use them if they have already unlocked them.

That's definitely the best balance for it if it isn't already like that.

Lemme ask you question:
Given ambidextra that need 4 turn only increase +5 mend rate, whats the value of +30 mend rate upgrade only for siege up to 28 workers? Is it 2 turn?

This is where we differ. Ee should never be an useful unit that dictate the game. Doing this make this game worse than p2w games

The alternative is just remove his siege aura completely. Doing this will make him (still) better infantry with unique counter (maybe with some stats adjustment) philosopically this is better way to show off your stuff instead of keeping it at the back (as siege factory) for easter unit.

[DreJaDe]

Some of your Nerf suggestion can be approved but definitely not all. That will just loose it's EE factor and will be just a useless unit. It's like scout with 1 sight and 50turns to make.

Definitely, everyone in game should be able to use them if they have already unlocked them.

That's definitely the best balance for it if it isn't already like that.

Lemme ask you question:
Given ambidextra that need 4 turn only increase +5 mend rate, whats the value of +30 mend rate upgrade only for siege up to 28 workers? Is it 2 turn?

This is where we differ. Ee should never be an useful unit that dictate the game. Doing this make this game worse than p2w games

The alternative is just remove his siege aura completely. Doing this will make him (still) better infantry with unique counter (maybe with some stats adjustment) philosopically this is better way to show off your stuff instead of keeping it at the back (as siege factory) for easter unit.

Does EE dictate your games?....

Well, that's kinda understandable though for other circumstances for me... but for me, EE doesn't dictate the game.

Well, If I'm not wrong that seige thing buff isn't there back then. It's only the 100% miss chance which is also OP back then Idk, maybe bring that back and remove the seige?

Endru is the only guy who could solve this, though if I'm not wrong again. Endru don't like this unit at all or smt. Maybe your request may have been granted fully because of that or smt.

I still think that Coolguy being buildable for any player the have unlocked it should be able to use it in game. And I think that's the best balance for that. Its an EE after all.

Oh yeah, it's able to enter carts again right? I agree on it not being able to enter wagons. Its counter is kinda useless because of that.

[Aral_Yaren]

Stratego, is it your authority to create what many players need:

To make an in-game option button to include EE while creating a game?

Guys, this is what we need to solve our issue here. And to solve any future complains and problems Calistra and many other people had experienced in this great game - not counting me, who were betrayed no-EE rule in bet game. In bet game, folks.

[Badnorth]

Stratego is a busy man so it is unlikely that option is to be added while CoolGuy is the only EE, it'll probably be implemented when the EE update gets released.

But to be sure, @Stratego (dev). Hi dev. Please answer.
We got currently 3 votes in this forum to be added. Some more if the non-forumer players gets counted.

[digimon666]

Some of your Nerf suggestion can be approved but definitely not all. That will just loose it's EE factor and will be just a useless unit. It's like scout with 1 sight and 50turns to make.

Definitely, everyone in game should be able to use them if they have already unlocked them.

That's definitely the best balance for it if it isn't already like that.

Lemme ask you question:
Given ambidextra that need 4 turn only increase +5 mend rate, whats the value of +30 mend rate upgrade only for siege up to 28 workers? Is it 2 turn?

This is where we differ. Ee should never be an useful unit that dictate the game. Doing this make this game worse than p2w games

The alternative is just remove his siege aura completely. Doing this will make him (still) better infantry with unique counter (maybe with some stats adjustment) philosopically this is better way to show off your stuff instead of keeping it at the back (as siege factory) for easter unit.

Does EE dictate your games?....

Well, that's kinda understandable though for other circumstances for me... but for me, EE doesn't dictate the game.

Well, If I'm not wrong that seige thing buff isn't there back then. It's only the 100% miss chance which is also OP back then Idk, maybe bring that back and remove the seige?

Endru is the only guy who could solve this, though if I'm not wrong again. Endru don't like this unit at all or smt. Maybe your request may have been granted fully because of that or smt.

I still think that Coolguy being buildable for any player the have unlocked it should be able to use it in game. And I think that's the best balance for that. Its an EE after all.

Oh yeah, it's able to enter carts again right? I agree on it not being able to enter wagons. Its counter is kinda useless because of that.

I dont see you answering my question, and for your question, i said yes.
Nevertheless i am glad you all agree to make it not exclusively 1 per game but 1 per person in a game.

I just wait for endru then, i already bring the math of the siege aura building bonus and his stats. I will not bother with range from aura yet, but i am sure as heck will address it after we address this problem.

[DreJaDe]

Lemme ask you question:
Given ambidextra that need 4 turn only increase +5 mend rate, whats the value of +30 mend rate upgrade only for siege up to 28 workers? Is it 2 turn?

This is where we differ. Ee should never be an useful unit that dictate the game. Doing this make this game worse than p2w games

The alternative is just remove his siege aura completely. Doing this will make him (still) better infantry with unique counter (maybe with some stats adjustment) philosopically this is better way to show off your stuff instead of keeping it at the back (as siege factory) for easter unit.

Does EE dictate your games?....

Well, that's kinda understandable though for other circumstances for me... but for me, EE doesn't dictate the game.

Well, If I'm not wrong that seige thing buff isn't there back then. It's only the 100% miss chance which is also OP back then Idk, maybe bring that back and remove the seige?

Endru is the only guy who could solve this, though if I'm not wrong again. Endru don't like this unit at all or smt. Maybe your request may have been granted fully because of that or smt.

I still think that Coolguy being buildable for any player the have unlocked it should be able to use it in game. And I think that's the best balance for that. Its an EE after all.

Oh yeah, it's able to enter carts again right? I agree on it not being able to enter wagons. Its counter is kinda useless because of that.

I dont see you answering my question, and for your question, i said yes.
Nevertheless i am glad you all agree to make it not exclusively 1 per game but 1 per person in a game.

Oh yeah, i missed that maybe. To answer it, my answer is no. But your math is not really that valid to how it works in game.

[Stratego (dev)]

Stratego, is it your authority to create what many players need:

To make an in-game option button to include EE while creating a game?

Guys, this is what we need to solve our issue here. And to solve any future complains and problems Calistra and many other people had experienced in this great game - not counting me, who were betrayed no-EE rule in bet game. In bet game, folks.

i can just repeat myself:

The MAIN task/role of EE units that they are usable everywhere, that is why they should not be op but an intresting unit to use.
so, they must remain in normal games,

if they are felt to be op please talk to Endru to change a little if he agrees

[digimon666]

Oh yeah, i missed that maybe. To answer it, my answer is no. But your math is not really that valid to how it works in game.

Ok, give me your "valid" version and i will be happy to discuss it

if they are felt to be op please talk to Endru to change a little if he agrees

Well, who in charge deciding that legendary only be build for first player ONLY?

[Stratego (dev)]

not first player...

legendary means only one unit can exists in a game from that unit.
so the first to finish the build will have it(not necessarily the "first player"), and if that got killed then anyone can build it again.

[digimon666]

not first player...

legendary means only one unit can exists in a game from that unit.
so the first to finish the build will have it(not necessarily the "first player"), and if that got killed then anyone can build it again.

IF
You deserve to lose if someone manage to kill it at this state

Can we compromise about "only one unit can exist in a game from that unit" ?
will that be the future direction of all this op stuff? I will quote my self once again

Unlike some op unit where if imbalanced, it will transform the match into some kind of mirror match up. There is no failsafe like that for legendary unit where if someone use it, no one else can use it.