Roman units are kinda weak...

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.
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StormSaint373
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Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by StormSaint373 »

Erm Roman units don't get smithing upgrades...

This kinda leaves them as an afterthought come late game...

Their archers are worse than any other . . . Sagittarius costs more than arbalest yet only when standing next to a centurion does he even equal a non-smithed arbalest.
The legionnaire comes to cost a lot more whilst coming only to mediocrity. Attack rating is poor come late game.
As opposed to a dismounted knight, they would lose unless they had support (and a lot of it)

The auxilleries become obsolete, (except dromaderi) due to cav rebuff
Auxilleries don't even recieve their own faction upgrades (legion training and legion missile tactics)

Btw... AI keeps making a black horsed centurion, (upgrade?), Yet players are unable to

Rome also seems to be lacking in the regards of effective spearmen... Only dromaderi, (easily dealt with by infantry or archers)

Which leads to the severe vulnerability of cavalry or elephants... (Didn't Rome defeat Carthage, which had elephants.)?
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Badnorth
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Badnorth »

After reading this I kinda agree that they are too weak.Especially in mid-late game...same with the japanese units. They are underused..I haven't seen anyone using them in multiplayer.(Except Ai)But ninja is fine.
StormSaint373 wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:35 pm Btw... AI keeps making a black horsed centurion, (upgrade?), Yet players are unable to
I've encountered this too when enemy Ai's has roman garrison's built.
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by SirPat »

then why not giving legionnaries an upgrade tech making them to speared legionnaries (idk what to call them) giving them anti cavalry but not that high and gives them that throw something ability and can it be set with a maximum amount of uses?
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

SirPat wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:02 am then why not giving legionnaries an upgrade tech making them to speared legionnaries (idk what to call them) giving them anti cavalry but not that high and gives them that throw something ability and can it be set with a maximum amount of uses?
Tbf, legionaries would normally have two pila, essentially one use spears / javelins, that could be thrown or thrusted, plus their gladia, (short swords) and big shields of course there is a case for giving them some anti- cav bonus as standard.
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by SirPat »

ok. how else can we make them stronger? or lets make byzantine units so romans would have that as late game
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Endru1241 »

You forgot, that saggitarius is also one of the best defensive archers/cost.
And please don't compare them to unit requiring 12 turn research.
Most auxilaries are very good in their speciality, while all being affected by centurion. What's more - with aenator they can effectively do fast, ealry attack.
And both skirmisher and archer are affected by legion missile tactics.
Auxilary spearman is very good. Too good considering rome supposed weakness against heavy cavalry.
With centurion support they one-shot knights, leave only 3 hp on heavy knight and easily two shot max blacksmith cavalier, while surviving attack from them, even from buffed ones.
Black horse centurion is a hero unit and is not supposed to be recruited - it's a bug.
Dromaderii are OP for cost, even on late game, but it balances weaker skirmisher, which on game start is adequate.
Legion training is tech only for legionaries. Without it they are barely average for the cost (and weak on the late game).
Giving legionaries ranged ability suddenly would totally change their usage, so I am against it.
Giving legionaries anti-mounted capability is just absurd.
They are heavy infantry and apart of few very rare, specialized units - cavalry is their only weakness.
Rome late game disadvantage could be remedied by legionaries +hp, +attack research. Possibly split in two with one of them also affecting auxilaries.
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by L4cus »

i saw a specunitaction that an ability could be done only once or maybe it was on another unit aspect
maybe giving a throw pilum abilityto leagionaries that can be casted only one time could make tehm more usefull
my idea is a tech that requires legion training, so its not an early game tactic

btw there are a lot of units that could be produced on roman garrison, such as thracian falxman (i am not sure about its name since idont play long time ago) since its an ancient unit and were hired by romans to fight against their enemies, plus some barbarians that could be recruited there
right now i have posted new stats suggestions for balearean slingers afetr some researches, and quadrupole made a sprite for it, they were used by romans as well.

so ancient mercenaries that were hired by rome should be producible by roman garrison
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Endru1241 »

Ancient mercenaries - I agree, that they could be trained by romans. Temporarily (until proper cultures will be implemented) it could be in roman garrison.
As for ranged ability - two things:
- I don't ever plan to add "one time only" to any regular unit/ability. I'd rather use long cooldown.
- I don't want to suddenly change unit usage with some tech. That's not a good practice. And legionaries are heavy infantry. Sure they had short range projectile attack, but the same can be said about many, many units - light, heavy cavalry, various infantry - most of them had some sort of ranged attack as a secondary fighting option (mostly - as first strike, before main impact or as harrasing tactic to press enemy into close combat), yet we don't implement it.
To be truthful to history no bonus should be given to legionaries with research (technological advancements didn't have much impact), but rather the cost would be lowered or even mercenary legionary would be added (same stats, lower cost, requires regular payments, eventually with group pay uniquely affecting only them casted by centurions) .
But just to balance it to the rest of the game - simple property changer tech would suffice. To let them be better heavy infantry.
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by L4cus »

mmh, what about "inspire" ability for centurion, area spell that rise the stats of roman units for 2-3 turns, with 5-6 turns cooldown
also, low cost units like hastatus and velites should be implemented for quick answer, or fast attack. As well as princeps and triarius as 3 turn units(not random production) to face the cost of the units (3 cost minium)
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by StormSaint373 »

Rome has been sitting without much use for awhile... Perhaps some techs and nits can be added for them.
Early counterparts can be...
Hastati
Princapii
Triarii
Late counterparts can be Byzantine units.

I havent seen many suggestions on their behalf, so maybe something can be done now?
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by TheSenate-_- »

What else was rome known for in being effective.. maybe give them combat buffs when they are on a road?? Since a major part of their success was due to them creating city infrastructure like roads?? This could be a tech and represents that city building side of them well in this game and could give them much needed relavence in the late game which would also make more incentives to make roads and canals in multiplayer matches as they aren't used too much currently?? Idk what do you all think?
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Endru1241 »

When you mentioned roads - there is another very interesting thing that roman units could get. One of the those:
a) new 2 turn worker with very limited ship/siege/mega capability (first two probably none), but full worker mend rate (or maybe even boosted).
b) even more limited - capable of only building things romans specialized in , but with bigger mend rate.
c) constructing ability for legionaries (e.g. only roads, maybe walls).
All options assumes unit spec - can only mend it can construct.
All those options doesn't necessarily exclude some small boost on roads.
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Squirrel5555
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Squirrel5555 »

To further buff the Roman's, could legionnaires get the ability to build roads or wooden forts of some kind? Easy to destroy with siege or fire but something to hold off early attacks.

After all it was common for legionnaires to create infrastructure .
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:13 pm When you mentioned roads - there is another very interesting thing that roman units could get. One of the those:
a) new 2 turn worker with very limited ship/siege/mega capability (first two probably none), but full worker mend rate (or maybe even boosted).
b) even more limited - capable of only building things romans specialized in , but with bigger mend rate.
c) constructing ability for legionaries (e.g. only roads, maybe walls).
All options assumes unit spec - can only mend it can construct.
All those options doesn't necessarily exclude some small boost on roads.
b sounds good to me, packaged so that the unit itself is the Roman equivalent of the Engineers.

I think it would be cool that instead of balancing each "faction", we specialise them instead with appropriate niche units or abilities.
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Hyuhjhih »

Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 7:13 pm new 2 turn worker with very limited ship/siege/mega capability (first two probably none), but full worker mend rate (or maybe even boosted).
b) even more limited - capable of only building things romans specialized in , but with bigger mend rate.
c) constructing ability for legionaries (e.g. only roads, maybe walls).
All options assumes unit spec - can only mend it can construct.
All those options doesn't necessarily exclude some small boost on roads.

While their main advantage was building roads and walls, how about 1 turn to build roads and walls, excluding nearly all structures and maybe also a chapel and great flag to match the set.

Also , a similar but distinct topic was proposed by me before http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic. ... 64#p111372 ( the name is not architect now 😆)
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by TheSenate-_- »

So it's gonna be a unit or a tech? I kinda read everything but I think this is the gist?
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Endru1241 »

Hyuhjhih wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 2:57 am
While their main advantage was building roads and walls, how about 1 turn to build roads and walls, excluding nearly all structures and maybe also a chapel and great flag to match the set.

Also , a similar but distinct topic was proposed by me before http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic. ... 64#p111372 ( the name is not architect now 😆)
Unfortunately to construct anything in 1 turn the definition of that building/structure needs to allow 1st turn hp mending.
And honestly - 2 turn unit capable of 3 times as fast mending is not very balanced.
21 mend with ambidexteria applied is absolute limit and only assuming very limited build options.
So this would make the case of 2 turn roads and 3 turn stone roads, walls still 2 turns.
Most towers would have to be removed from the build list too.

As for legionary option to build roads - I think it could be added as inherent ability with 5-6 mend (or 7-9 unaffected by ambidexteria).
For roman tech I'd have to check if property changer tech decreasing cost is possible.
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by makazuwr32 »

I think roman worker can still build scout tower and/or guard tower (basic one).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

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i suggested to implemment a worker for roman faction like "auxliar engineers", so they could build the roman siege equipment and some other structures like bridges, roads. i think it could work in-game, keeping balance. a 3 cost builder, and nerffed roman siege machines...
for example, for scorpion to deploy it would have a transition mode, in addition to deployed and packed modes
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Squirrel5555 »

Ooooo a scorpion. I like this idea :D
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Phantomstriker »

The romans have siegue weapons like catpults but more tiny but are low used
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Endru1241 »

It's commonly referenced topic, so let's analyze again.
First - let's look closely at auxilaries, counting legion bonus:
Aux swordsman - 24 hp, 10+1 power, 1+1/1+1 armors, regular swordsman bonuses - a little weaker in the offensive than popular medium infantry units (e.g. samurai, man-at-arms), but one of the best at defense (not that it helps much with this category) I'd say around 2.8 at the start of the game and counting lacking blacksmith bonuses it's at best at 2.3 cost at the endgame.
Aux spearman - 16hp, 5+1 power, 1+1/1+1 armors, regular spearman bonuses - again almost the same as aux swordsman, but a little better. Tops halberdier and would be OK as 3 turn unit at the start of the game. I'd set it as 3.1 at the start, 2.6 at the endgame.
Aux archer - 17hp, 6+1 power, 6 range, 0+1/1+1 armor, regular archer bonuses. Holds it's own, but nothing special. 3.2 at the start, but somewhere around 2.6 turns at the end (and only counting legion missile tactics).
Aux skirmisher - 12hp, 6+1 power, 4 range, 0+1/5+1 armor , almost skirmisher bonuses (apart of +25% bonus vs mounted) - like I stated before - it's on weaker side. 2.7->2.1 cost
Aux knight - 24hp, 8+1 power, 2+1/1+1 armor, knight bonuses - like more armored axe knight, but without anti-building bonuses. And much better category. Quite good one. 3.4 -> 2.9
Dromedarii - 18hp, 6+1 power, 1+1/1+1 armor, 4 speed, +50% vs melee foot and ranged, +65% vs mounted, +100% vs slow heavy cav, +132% vs chariots, medium cav and ranged mounted, +200% vs regular heavy cav and additionally Camel Fear aura. Hard to assign cost, but I'd say 4 at the start should be a good measure. Still staying quite strong at 3.5 or more at the end.
Counting chances (each has the same now) - it turns as 3.2 at the start and 2.6 at the end of the game.
And only assuming support of centurion.
Without it start game doesn't even come as 3 and endgame is very close to 2.

Additionally Legionary is evidently on the weaker side without support and with it barely holds start of the game as 4 turn unit.
Roman archer could actually be a little better comparing to other similar units.

Easiest balancing solution, that comes to mind is actually just allowing blacksmith bonuses to all of them.
But I'm still quite enticed with adding legionaries (or all army) some sort of construction ability.
And/or we could concentrate on interesting idea here: Spawning Ability for Roman Garrison.
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

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I proposed this suggestion b4, and i m proposing it again, how about a 3/4 turn auxiliaries tech that makes all aux units directly buildable in roman garrison while completely removing the randomness in it?
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

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i think, since they were from antiquity, that roman units could be affected only by first upgrades from blacksmith, that way we balance them even more for the early game...but i still think we could add more units for roman faction...or make a 2x2 fortified structure with some artillery possibilities, not roman only artillery, bt similar to monastery, counted as well as a mega building...
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Endru1241 »

godOfKings wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:31 pm I proposed this suggestion b4, and i m proposing it again, how about a 3/4 turn auxiliaries tech that makes all aux units directly buildable in roman garrison while completely removing the randomness in it?
I was not against it.
But it cannot be done in current engine - it would have to be separate set of units.
L4cus wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:48 pm i think, since they were from antiquity, that roman units could be affected only by first upgrades from blacksmith, that way we balance them even more for the early game...but i still think we could add more units for roman faction...or make a 2x2 fortified structure with some artillery possibilities, not roman only artillery, bt similar to monastery, counted as well as a mega building...
There is even a topic out there - I just renamed it for easier identification:
Roman Mega Building
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by L4cus »

godOfKings wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:31 pm I proposed this suggestion b4, and i m proposing it again, how about a 3/4 turn auxiliaries tech that makes all aux units directly buildable in roman garrison while completely removing the randomness in it?
it doesnt balance it at all, since they have different real cost...
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by L4cus »

i think roman garrison and the possible mega structure should produce ancient mercenaries...after all, roman did hired lots of them...(ading more ancient mercenaries would be cool too)
ancient ships too! i think it doesnt need an explanation
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by godOfKings »

L4cus wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:11 pm it doesnt balance it at all, since they have different real cost...
R they really that much different? The only exception i can think of is dromedarii but its a lancer with lower damage against mounted than spearman, so i think at most its at upper limit of 3 turn unit stat
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by L4cus »

Endru saidiit himself...
Dromedarii would cosr 4...it has camel fear aura, thats really usefull since dromedarii is not the only one dealing more damage, butt he others deal more damage too
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Re: Roman units are kinda weak...

Post by Endru1241 »

Decreased attack of mounted units also really helps with defending against them. Especially it denies few tiles from any mounted archers shooting (damage becomes really useless).
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