Elephant and Turtle machine

[Jerzy1241]

The war elephant, especially the heavy one, and the turtle machine are too powerful and need to be weakened. The very idea of ​​abstraction of these units, especially the turtle machine, which would probably be more suitable for Age of Fantasy as well as both flying units, is controversial. Counter against elephants and turtles that would not be vulnerable to melee and ranged attacks at the same time. Elephant has 140 health and the ballista deals 10.

[godOfKings]

Turtle machine: use swordsmen/ catapults/ towers etc.

War elephant: use conversion/ anti-mounted units etc.

[b2198]

War Elephant is extremely weak to conversion though, and a buffed svardstavier also almost one-shots them. There was the assassin issue against them too, but that one has been dealt with already, so conversion still remains the main factor that makes them simply not viable against any opponent that is aware of that.

Turtle machines though I agree that they're a bit too strong, but some buffed elite macemen/hatamotos/elite flailmen/elite axe throwers can also deal with them without that much trouble. Their main issue though is not the unit itself, but its availability due to mines, as Endru has pointed out already, which makes it waay less risky to spend those 8 turns doing nothing but producing one of them, because you wouldn't be actually waiting for 8 turns. Also I think their mend rate is a bit too high too, but I might not be considering the full scope of the situation for this point.

On flavor side of turtle machines, ornithopters and flying scouts... idk actually . I know they weren't actually used at those periods, and that only the ideas for making things like those existed, but I'm not sure if the game would be better with or without them...

[makazuwr32]

What if we will give 1% bonus to trebuchets and catapults against elephants for a guaranteed hit?

[godOfKings]

Lol elephant so slow its always a guaranteed hit, but compared to dmg of anti mounted units, using siege on elephants is a waste, unless its maxed cannon

[b2198]

Lol elephant so slow its always a guaranteed hit

Not with elephant run (also even without it there's a 30% chance for those to miss them), but...

but compared to dmg of anti mounted units, using siege on elephants is a waste, unless its maxed cannon

I agree here.

Also again, elephants are actually really weak imho, they don't need any nerf unless the conversion issue is dealt with beforehand or alongside it.

[godOfKings]

But elephant run is one time use, its not permanent speed increase so base speed is still 2 and siege units still accurately hit them

I really like that no matter how op units like elephants and turtle machines are, no one would dare to directly send them forward without other appropriate units to support and protect them

[b2198]

But elephant run is one time use, its not permanent speed increase so base speed is still 2 and siege units still accurately hit them

But it still counts as having 4 speed until the start of their next turn, even if they moved after using (unlike Geass: Move, which stops increasing speed right after the unit moves).

[godOfKings]

Really? Ok i need to check