Nordic Warlord's survivability is too low?

[b2198]

They cost 6 turns, and while having low morale aura on top of the regular highmorale aura of most leaders helps, I feel like it isn't enough to make him survive as much as a leader should when attacked somewhat lightly.
Points to consider:

1. He costs 6 turns
2. He has both high morale and low morale auras
3. His base armor is 3/2
4. His hp is 28
5. The matter of buff difference is not really that important here, since it's currently a problem with factionless units in general. Plus in defensive stats it would only increase +1/+0 armor, which would be inferior (in terms of defense) than battlefield blacksmith's +1/+1.
6. AHeavy Foot Knights cost 4 turns (+6 for upgrade research)
7. A Heavy Foot Knight has no auras
8. A Heavy Foot Knight has 27 hp
9. A Heavy Foot Knight's base armor is 5/3
10. A Heavy Foot Knight is still the second unit in a 3-unit line
11. Centurion, a unit that has WAY more auras and is overall A LOT more useful to their faction, is closer in stats to a Heavy Knight (The second unit in his 3-unit line) than Nordic Warlord is to Heavy Foot Knight. Especially in terms of armor.
12. Huskarl, another nordic heavy infantry, also costs 6 turns
13. A Huskarl has no auras
14. A Huskarl has 7/4 base armor, making it almost tied to Elite Foot Knights when both are fully upgraded and buffed (11/7 vs 10/8, respectively)
15. A Huskarl has 31 hp, the same as an Elite Foot Knight

With those in mind, I have a few ideas that could maybe be used to improve them:

• Idea A: Increase their armor by +1/+1 and hp by something between +3 and +6
• Idea B: Increase their armor by +2/+1
• Idea C: Seeing that Idea B is exactly what the new (actually the one we'll get in the next update, since it's unavailable in the current one XD) research for zerks does for them, I thought of maybe expanding this research to all (or most) nordic units, with some reduction in their base armor, of course, except for Nordic Warlord, which could remain with 3/2 or maybe even 4/2 and increase to 5/3 (or 6/3) after the research.

[godOfKings]

U mentioned light atk, exactly what constitutes a light atk that kill warlord quickly? I feel like it's good enough as a support, I wouldn't really want it to b so tanky I would make more of it than huskarl

[b2198]

U mentioned light atk, exactly what constitutes a light atk that kill warlord quickly?

"somewhat lightly"
2 unupgraded celtic warriors (with low morale considered) would deal exactly his hp in damage
(6+4 - 3)*2*2 = 28
If you added +1 melee armor to it, they'd "only" deal 24 damage, with +2, 20 damage (the celtic warriors would still kill him if both were to be fully buffed, which is to be expected, since they are the celts' primary and specialized anti-infantry units)

Also 1 unupgraded axe knight buffed by a bard (and also with low morale considered) would do the same, and axe knight+bard would have the same cost as a Nordic Warlord.

I feel like it's good enough as a support, I wouldn't really want it to b so tanky I would make more of it than huskarl

Neither would I. I'm not saying to increase its stats up to Huskarl or Elite Foot Knight levels, I'm just pointing that they are a bit too far below Heavy Foot Knight levels, proportionally worse than a Centurion when compared to a Heavy Knight, even though Centurion is WAY more useful as a leader than they are, so they should at least be comparably as tanky as a Heavy Foot Knight due to that.

Huskarls would still be significantly tankier than them, and would still have the bonus of being healed twice as much when compared to them, and on top of that they still do full counters, instead of only half. Those would be their differentials relative to Nordic Warlords' high/low morale auras (which don't stack, so there's no real reason to spam them, especially if you already have zerks/banner bearers/great flags/inquisitor/almost any other leader in the area) and Promote Loyalty/Dismiss Propaganda skills

[Endru1241]

Nordic warlord hp and armors were set to have similar resistance as mounted leaders.
Against arrows it mostly still holds true.
Against melee it should, but apparently - I forgot to increase it's melee armor by 1 when making last rebalance.
So I am gonna gix it to 4/2 armors.

Proposed changes and examples though are much more extreme.
E.g. resistance vs arrows would go over the top with both hp and p.armor boosts.
With melee armor fixed to 4 - things don't change much with example counters, but 2 celtic warriors units should be capable of defeating nordic warlord, just as any 2 cheap anti-mounted are capable of defeating mounted leader unit.

Warlord could get better low morale aura, that has higher range, but it should still not stack with berserk.
I already mentioned, but I plan to add researchable abilities to all full time leaders, so they will be needed to be slightly vulnerable.

[b2198]

Nordic warlord hp and armors were set to have similar resistance as mounted leaders.
Against arrows it mostly still holds true.
Against melee it should, but apparently - I forgot to increase it's melee armor by 1 when making last rebalance.
So I am gonna gix it to 4/2 armors.

Proposed changes and examples though are much more extreme.
E.g. resistance vs arrows would go over the top with both hp and p.armor boosts.
With melee armor fixed to 4 - things don't change much with example counters, but 2 celtic warriors units should be capable of defeating nordic warlord, just as any 2 cheap anti-mounted are capable of defeating mounted leader unit.

Fair enough (though the 2 cheap anti-mounted case also doesn't apply for unupgraded spearman vs 5 out of the 7 mounted leaders, but still does after upgrades, just like in this specific example, but with 4/2 armor it fits into that aswell so that's fine)

Warlord could get better low morale aura, that has higher range, but it should still not stack with berserk.

That could be a good improvement too, increasing their utility over raw stats.

I already mentioned, but I plan to add researchable abilities to all full time leaders, so they will be needed to be slightly vulnerable.

Yeah, I forgot about that when comparing to Huskarl and Foot Knights (though it still holds for Centurions).

Also, getting a bit off-topic here, but since it was mentioned again, and my curiosity is growing... What do you have in mind for making these abilities unlike the ones that regular buffers have?

[Endru1241]

Warlord could get better low morale aura, that has higher range, but it should still not stack with berserk.

That could be a good improvement too, increasing their utility over raw stats.

I started to wonder if range should be increased or just berserk aura range decreased.
Or maybe both?

I already mentioned, but I plan to add researchable abilities to all full time leaders, so they will be needed to be slightly vulnerable.

Yeah, I forgot about that when comparing to Huskarl and Foot Knights (though it still holds for Centurions).

Also, getting a bit off-topic here, but since it was mentioned again, and my curiosity is growing... What do you have in mind for making these abilities unlike the ones that regular buffers have?

3 options and I am still not sure what combination of them would go to leaders:
- some lacking for cultures buffs, possibly area ones
- some sort of buff removal (especially berserk rage, geass survive), low or melee range or maybe some other disadvantage
- large scale formations (mentioned few times) initiation aura or area buff

[b2198]

I started to wonder if range should be increased or just berserk aura range decreased.
Or maybe both?

On second thought maybe just the reducion on zerk's aura would probably be better. 5 range aura for a debuff might be a little too much, and zerks are still strong (though not op) even without that 2 attack and 2/1 armor that they lost and will be getting back next update.

3 options and I am still not sure what combination of them would go to leaders:
- some lacking for cultures buffs, possibly area ones
- some sort of buff removal (especially berserk rage, geass survive), low or melee range or maybe some other disadvantage
- large scale formations (mentioned few times) initiation aura or area buff

Would the first option be something like Daimyo's Bushido aura or the 1283791827 4 roman-specific Centurion auras? If so I think that would be very fitting, making leaders lead their faction better than they lead others.

Second option might be too strong if it's given for all leaders imo, even if their durability was nerfed to try to compensate. Those buffs are very strong, but still have good enough counters to them, specially if you are able to prepare yourself beforehand and know what's coming (but in some cases even without preparation it's still doable). Might make sense for leaders of the same faction of the buff, like Nordic Warlord or Celtic Chieftain, since they probably know how to handle their own kind (and druids are already able to do so). But that might also make factions weak against themselves, which might encourage just copying whatever your opponent is building, instead of trying to handle it with another faction, so I'm not sure if this would go that well.

Third option has a huge potential to be either too strong or too weak, but I'm very hyped for it when it gets to a balanced state XD

[Endru1241]

I started to wonder if range should be increased or just berserk aura range decreased.
Or maybe both?

On second thought maybe just the reducion on zerk's aura would probably be better. 5 range aura for a debuff might be a little too much, and zerks are still strong (though not op) even without that 2 attack and 2/1 armor that they lost and will be getting back next update.

My thought was to still leave lower ranged shooters to deal normal damage to warlords.
And on the berserk case it would allow even more early units to do so.
Although imho both (like every other aura) should have some research giving +1 range, but sadly it's not possible in the engine (which can be seen by advanced legion command - it was planned as upgrade, but couldn't be implemented as one).

3 options and I am still not sure what combination of them would go to leaders:
- some lacking for cultures buffs, possibly area ones
- some sort of buff removal (especially berserk rage, geass survive), low or melee range or maybe some other disadvantage
- large scale formations (mentioned few times) initiation aura or area buff

Would the first option be something like Daimyo's Bushido aura or the 1283791827 4 roman-specific Centurion auras? If so I think that would be very fitting, making leaders lead their faction better than they lead others.

Second option might be too strong if it's given for all leaders imo, even if their durability was nerfed to try to compensate. Those buffs are very strong, but still have good enough counters to them, specially if you are able to prepare yourself beforehand and know what's coming (but in some cases even without preparation it's still doable). Might make sense for leaders of the same faction of the buff, like Nordic Warlord or Celtic Chieftain, since they probably know how to handle their own kind (and druids are already able to do so). But that might also make factions weak against themselves, which might encourage just copying whatever your opponent is building, instead of trying to handle it with another faction, so I'm not sure if this would go that well.

Third option has a huge potential to be either too strong or too weak, but I'm very hyped for it when it gets to a balanced state XD

1st option is not only aura, but it's main idea.
Additionally (or in exchange) some leaders could have castable, unique buff.
2nd option was given me the same doubt - potentially being too strong, so I tried to think to make it less so.
E.g. very limited in range and getting counter (weapon effect removing said effects) or even the same weapon effect, but with the need to be casted as buff first and lasting only 1 attack, maybe only casted on self. Or sacrificing some hp (didn't test how exactly that works) to remove buffs.