No upgrade game balance

[godOfKings]

*This is a long post*

Due to major infantry overhauls, also existence of castle, the no upgrades match no longer has any semblance of balance

Archer and skirmisher are completely useless, knight slightly useful

The only meta units r healers, swordsmen... And Workers... Lots and lots of workers

Also its nearly impossible to kill workers behind castle, and guard towers with 6 range r better archers than archers

Swordsman is only good as tank, their offense isnt good enough against castle or masonry researched towers

This post addresses the above balancing issues and offers solution to them

Make all basic buildings except faction building available

What each building can make:

Barracks:
Swordsman, spearman
Techs: broad swordsman, gisarmeman

Archery range:
Archer, skirmisher
Techs: crossbowman, master skirmisher

Church:
healer, tech: persuasion, to priest

Stable:
Knight, light cav
Tech: heavy knight, elite l. cav

Siege workshop:
Siege mantlet, battering ram, catapult
Techs: ballistics, area damage, heavy catapult

Docks:
Trireme, galley, transport ship, mend ship, catapult ship
Techs: quadrireme, galleass, cog, elite mend ship, siege ship hull

Blacksmith:
Battlefield blacksmith
Tech: lvl 1 techs, sword, arrow, archer range, all types of armors

Adv. Centre:
Techs: masonry, battlements, loyalty, stealing, espionage defense, wheels, garrisoned keep, spyglass, astronomy, torch, tight fabric

Worker: can also make siege mantlet, battering ram, mendship beside existing buildings and units

Castle: trebuchet
Techs: heavy trebuchet, loyalty

Town: all the units and techs that are available in the above buildings and also already available in existing towns

Summary: all basic units will have 1st upgrade, battering ram can b used for melee atks against castle,
with blacksmith lvl 1 techs, maxed archers and skirmishers will actually become useful in killing straggler workers and healers, archers can use siege mantlets and 7 max range to reach workers behind castle
Swordsman with 1st upgrade, blacksmith sword tech and battlefield blacksmith buff can reach 16 dmg, one shotting mantlets and doing well against towers and battering rams
With loyalty techs and wagons, mantlets and rams, it wont b too much of a problem even if defender is using priests,

I think all the above units and techs shouldnt b removed from gem upgrade section, so even if player is playing no upgrades, if he bought any of the above techs in upgrade section it will b available to him, otherwise he will have to continue with just the default units

The main purpose of this suggestion is every default unit will b useful and have its own unique advantage for maxing one over the other, thus even in no upgrades game, it will still b like a miniaturised aos with different possibilities and not any fixed perfect sure-win strat or the current boring defensive standoff stalemate waiting for trebs on both sides to advance forward, and even that is kinda useless cause workers repair quickly and cant b killed easily

[godOfKings]

@DreJaDe @Endru1241 @b2198 this is my finalised suggestion on a balanced no upgrades game

[DreJaDe]

For me
I agree with you that the No upgrades game is kinda unbalanced. Basically, the game turned into all stalemate games... Though actually, that's been happening since the catapult update.

But I guess. The way I see things is different.

Here's mine.
Why not make the Priest an upgraded unit and monks be not.
A priest is kinda OP in no upgrades game. Station them in tower and you would be fine. Swordman, in the front, worker in the back and tadah, impenetrable line.

My example would still be hard to penetrate even without the priest, but I think that it shouldn't be that hard considering that you will still need 2-3 swordsman to defeat a guard tower.

So basically, 5-6 swordsman just to penetrate a single defensive wall. And more even with the priest since your unit can get converted.

Also, I think adding all that tech, unit and building would be so much... Like that is a lot of upgraded units suddenly becoming not.

I don't really understand the point where the things you suggested to be added to be still be purchasable in gems. Wouldn't that destroy the essence of "no upgrades".

I also agree with mantlets.

But maybe instead of upgraded version, why not add more ordinary units instead to the no upgrades game.
Like Pikeman, Foot Knight, Maceman, Shielder and Light cav.

I think this would make the new players more competitive when going online. Making them have more units and be more use to using more units.

About archer, honestly. They aren't really useless. For me, they are more skirmish units that can chip away swordsman HP before it can attack and make Swordsman weaker when sieging.

I don't want them taking the spotlight honestly.

[godOfKings]

All the units u suggested, exactly how will they change the current stalemate situation? they r just different versions of swordsman, there might b some changes but overall the game will still boil over to the original stalemate situation, and u still havent addressed the issue of workers hiding behind castle which has many ways to counter in games with upgrades allowed

In my opinion a no upgrade game should still have all the flavours of a typical aos game with upgrades enabled, that includes converting and upgrading ur units, but it would still b generally simpler and much faster to reach endgame, basically u can enjoy everything the game has to offer in a simpler environment

[DreJaDe]

I'm terms of castles.
I'm ok with it being only dealt with trebs. Unless it is under construction then that is just absurd that under construction castles can just be repaired by ordinary swordsman.

In terms of adding units. Adding more flavor to the choices plus the fact that there is no conversion means that it will be more battle oriented.

My suggestion already solves the problem with the melee seiges being so ineffective but adding more flavor just adds more to that and basically add to the overall quality experience when entering the game... At least from delusions.

Also, yeah. I guess im wrong on that maceman lol @Stratego (dev). Is it normal that Maceman doesn't have bonus against Mega Buildings? I mean, it has bonuses against normal buildings and fortification. It just looks weird that it doesn't have bonus against Mega.

[Stratego (dev)]

Stratego (dev). Is it normal that Maceman doesn't have bonus against Mega Buildings? I mean, it has bonuses against normal buildings and fortification. It just looks weird that it doesn't have bonus against Mega.

it must be a bug, i check...
...
i see it has already, see:
"trnBonusList":[
{"modifier":1, "unitList":{"categories":["U_BUILDINGS"]}},
{"modifier":2, "unitList":{"categories":["U_FORTIFIED_BUILDINGS"]}},
{"modifier":7, "unitList":{"categories":["U_MEGA_BUILDINGS"]}},
{"modifier":0.5, "unitList":{"categories":["U_THROWERS"]}},
{"modifier":1,"unitList":{"categories":["AND(", "U_LAND", "U_FOOT", "U_THROWERS", ")"]}}
],

so some bonus should be on them, which maceman you talk about, please give exact name so i can check

[DreJaDe]

Both maceman and elite maceman
That's the only two maceman ingame

[godOfKings]

This bonuslist doesnt match the ingame maceman bonus though, where is bonus against heavy infantry and armored siege machine?

[Stratego (dev)]

gosh i checked AOf, that is why i asked which maceman

[Endru1241]

Archer and skirmisher are completely useless, knight slightly useful

The only meta units r healers, swordsmen... And Workers... Lots and lots of workers

Also its nearly impossible to kill workers behind castle, and guard towers with 6 range r better archers than archers

If enemy is using swordsmen, priests and workers a lot, then archers should be useful - two of them can eliminate unprotected priest or worker.
They should also be good to chip away swordsmen hp. E.g. to be finished with knight attack.
The more archers are used - the more useful skirmishers become.

Swordsman is only good as tank, their offense isnt good enough against castle or masonry researched towers

This I can see as problem - too meagre anti-building bonuses with no techs nor buffs is something I have started to work on.
Right now bonuses can have part as addition, so highest bonuses - old anti-mounted and anti-building are perfect example to have some part changed like that.
Well - for anti-mounted it would also mean removing anti-mounted damage effect as that is current solution.

For swordsmen my initial idea was to change +100% vs structures, siege machines and ships, +200% vs fortifications and armored siege, +700% vs megas to:
+50% + 6 vs structures, siege machines and ships, +100% + 16 vs fortifications and armored siege, +200% + 50 vs megas.

For men-at-arms it would come to +8/+20/+80 , so make it similar damage with +2 blacksmith and lower with higher bonuses (buffs or combination of buffs/techs).
As similar change would affect cultural units - that shouldn't create imbalances, but overall some kind of formula could make no upgrade games better.

Is it normal that Maceman doesn't have bonus against Mega Buildings? I mean, it has bonuses against normal buildings and fortification. It just looks weird that it doesn't have bonus against Mega.

Heavy infantry like foot knight have bonus against buildings, but lack any additional against fortifications or megas.
Macemen are halfway to that.
Thinking about them - I'd rather add some bonus against heavy cavalry to make them fully anti-heavy, than concentrate too much on their anti-building aspect, but they can have some bonus without any problems.

Make all basic buildings except faction building available

What each building can make:

Barracks:
Swordsman, spearman
Techs: broad swordsman, gisarmeman

Archery range:
Archer, skirmisher
Techs: crossbowman, master skirmisher

Church:
healer, tech: persuasion, to priest

Stable:
Knight, light cav
Tech: heavy knight, elite l. cav

Siege workshop:
Siege mantlet, battering ram, catapult
Techs: ballistics, area damage, heavy catapult

Docks:
Trireme, galley, transport ship, mend ship, catapult ship
Techs: quadrireme, galleass, cog, elite mend ship, siege ship hull

Blacksmith:
Battlefield blacksmith
Tech: lvl 1 techs, sword, arrow, archer range, all types of armors

Adv. Centre:
Techs: masonry, battlements, loyalty, stealing, espionage defense, wheels, garrisoned keep, spyglass, astronomy, torch, tight fabric

Worker: can also make siege mantlet, battering ram, mendship beside existing buildings and units

Castle: trebuchet
Techs: heavy trebuchet, loyalty

Town: all the units and techs that are available in the above buildings and also already available in existing towns

Summary: all basic units will have 1st upgrade, battering ram can b used for melee atks against castle,
with blacksmith lvl 1 techs, maxed archers and skirmishers will actually become useful in killing straggler workers and healers, archers can use siege mantlets and 7 max range to reach workers behind castle
Swordsman with 1st upgrade, blacksmith sword tech and battlefield blacksmith buff can reach 16 dmg, one shotting mantlets and doing well against towers and battering rams
With loyalty techs and wagons, mantlets and rams, it wont b too much of a problem even if defender is using priests,

I think all the above units and techs shouldnt b removed from gem upgrade section, so even if player is playing no upgrades, if he bought any of the above techs in upgrade section it will b available to him, otherwise he will have to continue with just the default units

The main purpose of this suggestion is every default unit will b useful and have its own unique advantage for maxing one over the other, thus even in no upgrades game, it will still b like a miniaturised aos with different possibilities and not any fixed perfect sure-win strat or the current boring defensive standoff stalemate waiting for trebs on both sides to advance forward, and even that is kinda useless cause workers repair quickly and cant b killed easily

Seems like a huge amount of changes.
It could be good for newbies though.
Availability of 1st upgrade and bigger poll of units to choose from could make starting players less dependant on selecting "best" gem upgrades.
Although to be fair to all - all those shop items would need to be either refunded (not sure if it's easy to be done) or replaced by something else (and that is complicated).

Why not make the Priest an upgraded unit and monks be not.
A priest is kinda OP in no upgrades game. Station them in tower and you would be fine. Swordman, in the front, worker in the back and tadah, impenetrable line.

True.
But priests cannot be removed from no upgrades as this would totally mess a lot of campaigns.

I also agree with mantlets.

But maybe instead of upgraded version, why not add more ordinary units instead to the no upgrades game.
Like Pikeman, Foot Knight, Maceman, Shielder and Light cav.

Not sure about mantlets and macemen.
Foot knight as representative heavy infantry and light cavalry as, well - light cavalry representative should be good.
Shielder and pikemen have specific usage and are not really so much basic, but it would definitely make game more interesting with no upgrades turned on.
But I think rams are much more needed.
Replacing 3 shop upgrades with something should be manageable.