Rethink about Mercs Unit Currently

[Aral_Yaren]

After several previous verslog, there are many mercenaries unit come and duration longered. A good amount of those mercs don't even need writing at all, allow them to come in early game earlier. Currently in MP, mainly in considerably close area, these mercs rules against newby and mediocre players that they abuse them like end of life. Some of these mercs even just need its unique faction building, no writing at all.

That made me think of writing, primarily its usage to control early mercs spams that is on the way to become useless nowadays. And a reminiscence of AoS long ago when mercs rushes became OP without a tech to control. And if this trend continue, AoS go backward to the end of 2020 trend.

So Leaders to reflect this matter.

As for my take, mercs with more than 6 leaving are kinda too much for early game. Wonder if all mercs would get leaving tier based on its potentially abused powerspike.

[DreJaDe]

Honestly, I don't even think writing solved the issue at all unless it is a battle between two experienced players.

Even on the last updates when all mercs require writing, I can easily gain an overwhelming advantage by just teaching the writing.

I mean, it's basically 3 turn tech from the TC itself to gain access over units powers of lvl 2-3 units. Although it can be bad too since you will lose that early worker advantage but by having a balanced play style and you can still pretty much stalemate if it didn't work and it's now a slugfest.

It's a win win situation.

It's also essential for Romans when you have a bad roll of units summons and the early skirmish.

In team games, it's essential anyway so it's quite handy.

...

My thoughts on time.

I don't really know what to say. 6turns is really a good time time limit. Below that doesn't look worth it for most except speedy units like numidians.

But.. Most my games last only within the span of 20-30 turns. 6 turns means that one unit can already last for 20% of the game. What does that mean? It means that they are usable enough to be a main stay choice and not just as emergency.

Fighting units (not mercs) lasting for 6 turns is already quite good.

[Aral_Yaren]

Again, merc rush potential OP mainly in SMALL AREA IN EARLY GAME so put mind in it. Most of mercs effectiveness will be reduced in turn 12 or above when in this stage each players have settled down.

And again, I have stated as clear as moonlight that some mercs DON'T EVEN NEED writing at all. THIS means that writing already leaked its usefulness to control MERC RUSH (put aside its team game use as this is about mercs). Players can (and already) abuse a couple of mercs (some unit may not strong enough statwise but they has cost reducement like gallic cav or numid cav) that abusably effective in early game. It's not about picking up good strategy when evryone would just use the same good strategy

So Leaders to put a number of non-writing mercs unit to be unlocked behind writing again, regardless of faction whatsoever (currently just put a foundation of faction base is enough to unlock a few mercs). Like it said, at least it will prolong merc rush for as much as 3 turn.

And to remind, there are a couple of mercs which have leaving below 6 turn in AoS roster. And there'd be no reason that some mercs need writing and some don't just because they haven't listed in faction base.

[godOfKings]

I think ranged, and mounted mercs should have lower leaving time than infantry since they already get to fight faster than infantry, may b make infantry last 9 turns, mounted melee last 6 turns, foot ranged and skirmishers last 7 turn, mounted range, skirmisher and elephant last 5 turn

Condottiere and corsair can last 7 turn i guess

[godOfKings]

We can also make it that initial all mercs last 2 turn less than the my suggested time above, and a tech needs to b researched like prosperity or golden era that will increase leaving time by 2 turns, making them last as long as mentioned in above post

[godOfKings]

The tech could also b like fame, renown, u earned the trusts of the mercenary guild somehow so they now stay loyal to u for a longer time

[Aral_Yaren]

That sounds good as long as it doesn't destroy balance, which is the main treasure of AoS from other Ao houses - one of the marks is no "abusive single good, all copied strat".

Also I read somewhere that guild might be added as faction base for all mercs. Tho don't know if that were for real or not. And perhaps all mercs tech would be exclusive in this base.

[DreJaDe]

I kinda like the balance but not at the same time.

The logic being the one I don't like the most.
I mean, mercs stays for the money. The trust should have been based on the money paid.

Smt like longer contracts or discounted price (lol) would have been more appropriate.

[godOfKings]

The trust is based on fame/renown, that the jobs offered are great, mercs r treated with respect, lots of jobs available, and the environment in your country is favorable for mercenary business etc.

The other option as basically u showoff the richness of your country with prosperity/golden era which attracts more mercs to do business on your country

These two are basically reasons why researching this tech will increase leaving time of mercs, we go any way we want

[Endru1241]

After several previous verslog, there are many mercenaries unit come and duration longered. A good amount of those mercs don't even need writing at all, allow them to come in early game earlier. Currently in MP, mainly in considerably close area, these mercs rules against newby and mediocre players that they abuse them like end of life. Some of these mercs even just need its unique faction building, no writing at all.

That made me think of writing, primarily its usage to control early mercs spams that is on the way to become useless nowadays. And a reminiscence of AoS long ago when mercs rushes became OP without a tech to control. And if this trend continue, AoS go backward to the end of 2020 trend.

So Leaders to reflect this matter.

As for my take, mercs with more than 6 leaving are kinda too much for early game. Wonder if all mercs would get leaving tier based on its potentially abused powerspike.

Writing was actually only semi-solution, that made the worst 2 turn spam lessen.
Originally it was supposed to be dedicated tech (e.g. Contracts).
Maybe it could be, that ancient mercs require writing and medieval ones additionally Contracts?

The tech could also b like fame, renown, u earned the trusts of the mercenary guild somehow so they now stay loyal to u for a longer time

Unfortunately impossible in current engine.

[Endru1241]

Added Contracts tech.
It costs 3 turns and requires Writing.
Researchable in TC and Advancement Center for now.
Ancient mercs (unaffected by blacksmith) requires Writing and Medieval ones - Contracts.

For now only in the assets.

[b2198]

One thing I'm not sure of is in regards to balearic slingers. I don't think this nerf will be enough to make them not a mandatory spam in the early game, just with 3 turns more (or maybe writing will become more of a priority because of them and get rushed more often).

The thing with them is that they last too long, start dealing damage from very far, and deal a lot of damage when closer, I think at least one of these 3 aspects should be reduced to make them a choice instead of a must have in the early game.

[DreJaDe]

One thing I'm not sure of is in regards to balearic slingers. I don't think this nerf will be enough to make them not a mandatory spam in the early game, just with 3 turns more (or maybe writing will become more of a priority because of them and get rushed more often).

The thing with them is that they last too long, start dealing damage from very far, and deal a lot of damage when closer, I think at least one of these 3 aspects should be reduced to make them a choice instead of a must have in the early game.

I have a different way.

Limit them to range and special barracks.

[b2198]

I have a different way.

Limit them to range and special barracks.

Hm, limiting to archery range could work indeed. I think numidian cavalry is a good example of that, since they are also strong early on but not mandatory due to only being available in factories, and so can't be easily produced on the frontlines without losing production that could otherwise go into upgrades.

[godOfKings]

what about cretan archer with the heavy and fire shots?

[b2198]

what about cretan archer with the heavy and fire shots?

I don't think they're op because:

• The special shots have cooldowns (yes, you can alternate between them, but you can't fire the same one for 2 turns in a row)
• Their overall stats are weaker than balearic slinger
• They have less range than balearic slinger if you count ability ranges

They might even require a small stats buff imo. Right now their only usage is when you ABSOLUTELY need the anti-building (especially anti-mega) damage in EXACTLY 2 turns (and not need it constantly, just in that turn, since otherwise you'd be better off with an actual fire archer) in a way where an axe thrower wouldn't suffice.

[Endru1241]

I removed balearic slinger from TC.
Leaving time 9->7.

I also don't think Cretan Archer is very strong.
It was designed to be versatile archer.
A regular archer unit, that can also be used even against heavy infantry or buildings/sige machines with some effectiveness.
Maybe +1 overall range should be added here.

[b2198]

I removed balearic slinger from TC.
Leaving time 9->7.

Nice. But maybe both is a bit too harsh of a nerf? Not sure here myself.

I also don't think Cretan Archer is very strong.
It was designed to be versatile archer.
A regular archer unit, that can also be used even against heavy infantry or buildings/sige machines with some effectiveness.
Maybe +1 overall range should be added here.

Yeah, +1 range would make them a little more viable early on, which I think is their point.

[DreJaDe]

Nice. But maybe both is a bit too harsh of a nerf? Not sure here myself.

Yeah, I think one is enough cause it's hard for Romans to get also their anti heavy.

[b2198]

Maybe just removing from TC would be enough. The leaving time is already nerfed indirectly by having to walk to the frontlines from archery ranges or roman garrisons, which usually are not that close to it.

[LordOxtho]

Ballearic slingers are too Op...

[b2198]

Ballearic slingers are too Op...

They have already been heavily nerfed by being removed from TC roster and had their duration reduced from 9 to 7. Can't yet tell exactly about their state since this nerf, but with the testing I've done so far it seems to me that they are in a good place in terms of balancing now. Maybe actually a little bit too weak in larger maps?