The fate of hastati

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.
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DreJaDe
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The fate of hastati

Post by DreJaDe »

With the new update, the chances for hastati to enter the game become dimmer.

Now there are 2 turns Numidian cav and 3 turns gallic cav that can fill the gap hastati should have filled which is a cheap unit for an emergency.

I mean, there's a 6-speed cav that can easily go to the frontline and be a meat shield that also has good damage againstt the enemy of Heavy infantry which is the cav. With another turn, there's the gallic cav which is just more worth than hastati. Although merc, the time they have should be enough and if it's not, you're probably dead.

I mean, hastati is also good. It can become stronger than legionary at a cost of two but... Yeah, it's not worth it. (Just even with the reason here and my old reasons)

My suggestion.
Give up the unique promotion ability and make it upgradeable through a factory

This is definitely not historical but I kinda want the Marian reforms be the upg tech. (The auxiliary are just too useful, so useful to give up the Marian reforms for anything which means that hastati won't still be useful if the upg option is separated)

Then either separate the Triari so that Romans could have a proper anti cav or just a continuous upg to my earlier suggestion.

A 6-7 turn up from princepe then to triarii.
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L4cus
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by L4cus »

The most historical way to represent this would be through different units:
Hastati 2 turns
Princeps 3 turns
Triarii 3-4 turns
When mariam reform is researched an option to transform both hastati and princeps into legionaries would be aviable with an extra cost of valuables or just bt being close to roman garrison or castrum, or just an inmediate change into legionaries
On the other hand, before mariam reform roman would have socii aviable, after the reforms all auxiliars
But if we want to be even more acuarate then legionaries shouldnt wait for mariam reforms, since legions exist even before the reform, but from the monarchy period. There could be some upgrade with the mariam reform tech...not sure though...and well, there were more imortant reforms.
Mariam reforms also gave citizen rights to all italian people so socii would become legionaries as well, ee woumd need legionary cavalry maybe

I was just watching some shirt documentaries about the trajan column representation of auxilia, and hot it was one of the first represe tation of such an important event as dacian wars (auxilia were completly ignored wich lead to rebelions just like socii rebelions, another reason why citizen rights were given to them)

On the late game some other reform to chamge auxilia by federatii or similarsas well as legionary for comitatenses or something like that

All this xompletly complex
A propper representaton pf rome would need a whole new variant i think i still apreciate the love and dedication to tis culture aos and i know there might be lots of errors in this post that someone will notice t_t
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus...
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L4cus
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by L4cus »

The most historical way to represent this would be through different units:
Hastati 2 turns
Princeps 3 turns
Triarii 3-4 turns
When mariam reform is researched an option to transform both hastati and princeps into legionaries would be aviable with an extra cost of valuables or just bt being close to roman garrison or castrum, or just an inmediate change into legionaries
On the other hand, before mariam reform roman would have socii aviable, after the reforms all auxiliars
But if we want to be even more acuarate then legionaries shouldnt wait for mariam reforms, since legions exist even before the reform, but from the monarchy period. There could be some upgrade with the mariam reform tech...not sure though...and well, there were more imortant reforms.
Mariam reforms also gave citizen rights to all italian people so socii would become legionaries as well, ee woumd need legionary cavalry maybe

I was just watching some shirt documentaries about the trajan column representation of auxilia, and hot it was one of the first represe tation of such an important event as dacian wars (auxilia were completly ignored wich lead to rebelions just like socii rebelions, another reason why citizen rights were given to them)

On the late game some other reform to chamge auxilia by federatii or similarsas well as legionary for comitatenses or something like that

All this xompletly complex
A propper representaton pf rome would need a whole new variant i think i still apreciate the love and dedication to tis culture aos and i know there might be lots of errors in this post that someone will notice t_t
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus...
AOD, a new variant...
viewforum.php?f=230
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DreJaDe
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by DreJaDe »

But that's not really good which is why I didn't go for it.

It's not like I don't know.most of those. Only triarii would be used if that's the case since separating it would definitely make it a spearman or at least if it wants to be used.

The two won't be used at all since that would just make them weaker than the current style.

In all honesty, I really like the current now which is that they can all appear at the same time but... I just can't use them. They can't fill anything.
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Endru1241
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by Endru1241 »

Making triarii spearman is like making spartan hoplite a spearman.
Real battle tactics of all three were similar and that of heavy infantry.

Imho - out of question.

Trarii are also too good to cost only 2 turns, so making it being upgraded from hastati is out of question too.

Upgrade to legionary would just remove 2 turn unit from factory then, so still no good.

Maybe some sort of research, that would allow forced promotion, e.g. through valueables?
To senator maybe?
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L4cus
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by L4cus »

what about cursus honorum?
why just not make different stages of legionaries: legionaries, veteran legionaries and evocatii legionaries, so mariam reforms would upgrade pre mariam reform army? idk just spelling any idea comes to my mind
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DreJaDe
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by DreJaDe »

What about this

I tried changing the way they can be used. More vulnerable to arrows but is still a formidable foe against light and medium troops.

I thought of going for damage instead of bonus because I thought those are only for heavy but I noticed that zweihander was only a medium infantry so it might be not true. They also only cost 3 with those stats and damage so I thought this could pass as a 2 turn unit in tc.

Hastati
Same stats but armor is 2->0

Category: light armor, medium infantry

Bonus: same

Princeps
Same stats but armor is 3->1-2

Category: medium armored, medium infantry

Bonus: same

Triarii
Same stats but armor is 4-to 3

Category: heavy infantry, heavy armored

Promotion will still be the main upg.

Honestly, going for this type of balance is kinda not good anymore. Workers in tc, soldiers in a factory are the most powerful style of training in the current metas. Well, not like it changed anyway since the past.

I also found out that other cultures have 2-3 units in tc so I think this is ok. Like celts having 3, Primitive 3, Japanese 2 and so on

At this point it's kinda obvious that im way too focused in balancing Romans while all other cultures have their own problems which seems ok for other people. But idk, im more familiar with the Romans than any other styles. I might go for them next time like Greeks not having any cheap troops in TC.
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godOfKings
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by godOfKings »

Well japan i feel is almost perfected except for a guerilla style tate ashigaru
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DreJaDe
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by DreJaDe »

godOfKings wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 12:55 pm Well japan i feel is almost perfected except for a guerilla style tate ashigaru
I honestly don't agree with the state ashigaru because of seige mantle.

I remember that Japan's use of Tate became bigger because of guns so they have to make another one which became easily the same as a mantlet.
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L4cus
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by L4cus »

yes, but lacking the moblity i think, so a transformation into something like pavise crossbowman could be an option?
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DreJaDe
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by DreJaDe »

L4cus wrote: Fri Mar 18, 2022 11:00 pm yes, but lacking the moblity i think, so a transformation into something like pavise crossbowman could be an option?
Will I do agree with this, it seems that the direction where the suggestion is going is not in that way.
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L4cus
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Re: The fate of hastati

Post by L4cus »

i was thinking aboiut adding "barbarisation" tech to allow some late units, like federati, idk...i think its useless now
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