Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.
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DreJaDe
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Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by DreJaDe »

Have a wild idea.

I don't know if anyone really uses Phalangite so I will suggest this based on the notion that almost no one uses them.

So basically the idea is to make Phalangite an anti-infantry instead of anti cab unit. Like the Polish Hussar, they weren't specifically made to counter cavalry but were adapted to outrage Infantry.
P
So with that, here's the new stats.
Cost: 3
HP: 24
Atk: 10
Range: 2
M. Armor: 2
R. Armor:1
Speed: 3
Bonus
Same as light hoplite

Will have full counter category or the first strike.

They will be available at TC, Barracks and Gymnasion and will only be available once the Reach tech is researched.

Honestly, I just want an infantry that could be paired up with polish hussar. Why not Pikemen? I don't know.
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L4cus
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by L4cus »

Agree! Macedonian phalanxes were as trainable as other phalanxes in the formation term so havin them cost morw than hoolites seems not accuarate at all...
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Endru1241
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by Endru1241 »

L4cus wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:38 pm Agree! Macedonian phalanxes were as trainable as other phalanxes in the formation term so havin them cost morw than hoolites seems not accuarate at all...
Which hoplites?

We have heavy spartan hoplites, ekdromoi and light hoplites.


DreJaDe wrote: Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:54 am I don't know if anyone really uses Phalangite so
That can be said about many units, but while it can be an intro to some kind of balancing proposition - I don't think complete purpose change is good in any case.

Plus stats are far too superior for TC unit.
Probably just plainly too good for 3 turn unit.

Just one simple question - where would they leave light hoplite?

If we were to represent closer real usage of macedonian phalanx - real point was not outraging the enemy, but creating very tight formation with as many weapon attacks concentrated on front as possible to overwhelm any enemy.
And historically it was mostly used defensively to tie enemy army without too much casualties on macedonian side until enemy could be obliterated with cavalry.
So really to represent more properly it would have to be moderately high p.armor heavy infantry (very tight formation), possibly with both first strike and full counter, but not necessarily range 2.

And btw. one note - stratego wants cultures in AoS, without any option to use old, that would forever disallow this unit going along with winged hussar, just like any other mixing culture specific units.
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DreJaDe
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by DreJaDe »

My answer to the one simple question is that taking this unit should have been a risk or smt that is for specific strat since it would need reach tech which is a high cost tech. The other hoplites like the edkoromoi being it's auxiliary.

Basically same as Legionnaire to Hastati. The Legionnaire indeed makes hastati out of place but, having a strat that revolve around hastati is smt you would take without Legionnaire also.

Flavor wise, I really liked to keep the 2 range. It helps in immersion LOL. In terms of historical logic, I was only trying to go for the fact that they weren't adapted for cavalry but for other infantry to justify my wild thought.

And yeah, I'm just suggesting this to make a unit be more useful. It is is indeed true for other units but I don't think this is a good logic at all. If someone wants, someone could just suggest about them, it's just that this time, it is specific unit. Basically like how other units became usable which didn't really affect others much.

About the cultures. WDYM? The old ones wouldn't be able to fight the medieval one? Smt like that? Or smt like cultures won't be able to use other cultures?
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L4cus
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by L4cus »

to be honest, we ahve to recognize hellenic faction is far from polished, so these under usage of some units is common, when a hellenic leader + related techs come, i guess those units will be more competitive...so i will just wait to see what happens when the additions come
Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:13 pm Which hoplites?
We have heavy spartan hoplites, ekdromoi and light hoplites.
well, technicaly hellenic pikeman is an adaptation of hoplite, the training and materials is almost the same, thats why i though that making both units the same cost would make sense.
Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:13 pm And historically it was mostly used defensively to tie enemy army without too much casualties on macedonian side until enemy could be obliterated with cavalry.
So really to represent more properly it would have to be moderately high p.armor heavy infantry (very tight formation), possibly with both first strike and full counter, but not necessarily range 2.
anvil and hammer strategy, yes
on the other hand, i agree with that correct representation, high resistance, low attack and bonuses to counter attacks
Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:13 pm And btw. one note - stratego wants cultures in AoS, without any option to use old, that would forever disallow this unit going along with winged hussar, just like any other mixing culture specific units.
ok i am getting scared, wonder what this exactly means...
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Endru1241
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by Endru1241 »

L4cus wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:47 pm to be honest, we ahve to recognize hellenic faction is far from polished, so these under usage of some units is common, when a hellenic leader + related techs come, i guess those units will be more competitive...so i will just wait to see what happens when the additions come
Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:13 pm Which hoplites?
We have heavy spartan hoplites, ekdromoi and light hoplites.
well, technicaly hellenic pikeman is an adaptation of hoplite, the training and materials is almost the same, thats why i though that making both units the same cost would make sense.
Still - which hoplite?
Because from my knowledge macedonian phalanx was based mostly on athenian one.
Longer spears than others and instead weaker, but lighter armor (that actually also proved quite effective vs cavalry).
Meanwhile some other ideas taken from other hoplites.
Training was based on spartan ones to keep the formation at all cost.
Plus manouvers and composition of formation taken from Thebes.
DreJaDe wrote: Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:46 pm My answer to the one simple question is that taking this unit should have been a risk or smt that is for specific strat since it would need reach tech which is a high cost tech. The other hoplites like the edkoromoi being it's auxiliary.

Basically same as Legionnaire to Hastati. The Legionnaire indeed makes hastati out of place but, having a strat that revolve around hastati is smt you would take without Legionnaire also.

Flavor wise, I really liked to keep the 2 range. It helps in immersion LOL. In terms of historical logic, I was only trying to go for the fact that they weren't adapted for cavalry but for other infantry to justify my wild thought.

And yeah, I'm just suggesting this to make a unit be more useful. It is is indeed true for other units but I don't think this is a good logic at all. If someone wants, someone could just suggest about them, it's just that this time, it is specific unit. Basically like how other units became usable which didn't really affect others much.

About the cultures. WDYM? The old ones wouldn't be able to fight the medieval one? Smt like that? Or smt like cultures won't be able to use other cultures?
But Legionary is 3 cost, while hastati is 2.
So it leaves some emergency usage to hastati.
Or if you want to fill the numbers quicker.

But light hoplite is 3 and you propose macedonian one to be the same cost?

To have a representation of phalanx with 2 range and somehow anti-infantry - I'd go other way around - add another unit.
But definitely not currently proposed 3 turn one, because it's too superior to anything.
E.g. cost 5 with hp boosted to 30, armors 6/3.
Maybe with bonus vs heavy infantry?
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DreJaDe
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by DreJaDe »

Actually, thinking about it with my strats.
Hastati isn't actually an emergency unit but unit that could be trained because you have free factory.

If you're losing all to more losing you're legionnaires. Hastati isn't actually what you would want since the legionnaires must have been getting killed by anti legionnaire which is so close to what hastati is.

Leginnaire that can build defence, can block with it's body can't possibly be exchanged by hastati in defence.

You're most likely going to train the other stuff like mercs on tc and Balearic slinger in Roman Garisson. That is more mixed which will go better for your defence.

In my strats, mercs are a must since investing on roman will leave you so open early on.

About the Phalangite. What about 4 turns? I think 5 turn is too much for most infantry then just getting countered by anti heavy so easily.
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by Endru1241 »

DreJaDe wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:12 am Actually, thinking about it with my strats.
Hastati isn't actually an emergency unit but unit that could be trained because you have free factory.

If you're losing all to more losing you're legionnaires. Hastati isn't actually what you would want since the legionnaires must have been getting killed by anti legionnaire which is so close to what hastati is.

Leginnaire that can build defence, can block with it's body can't possibly be exchanged by hastati in defence.

You're most likely going to train the other stuff like mercs on tc and Balearic slinger in Roman Garisson. That is more mixed which will go better for your defence.

In my strats, mercs are a must since investing on roman will leave you so open early on.
By emergency I meant something to fill the field or TC as soon as possible.
It doesn't have to be against enemy using anti-heavy units.
Mercs have this one little problem, that even if they survive the clash - you cannot accumulate them, because of leaving.
Beware of that.
On the long term sagitarius can be better investment with 8 attack, 7 range under centurion and more resistant to survive a shot or two outside.

DreJaDe wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 12:12 am About the Phalangite. What about 4 turns? I think 5 turn is too much for most infantry then just getting countered by anti heavy so easily.
We are talking about exactly a unit, that don't have to be first in line.
It can even attack from behind a wall or something.

Depending on the buffs, techs and auras hellenic will get - those stats could be op even with 5 cost.
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DreJaDe
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by DreJaDe »

That's mostly what im talking about.

Actually, Legionnaire can be countered by normal archers
(no anti heavy) which i noticed as what most people likes. Hastati being both medium and heavy is not going to cut it for them so using enforcer as temporary is better.

I get that mercs don't last but 8 turns is enough for most cases to make changes and rebuild an army. No need to accumulate them, hastati too (mostly hastati). Just need enough.

I'm still trying to experiment on Sagittarius but for most cases, Balearic can solve most of those. They are basically my go to anti skirmish, anti range, anti infantry range which doesn't need any upg.

And normal inf counter can be solved by legionnaire themselves more easily. One reason why I don't want heals as their skill is that they are already too versatile and worth it.

For Phalangite

But I want them as staples. A frontline army that can be amassed. Like legionnaires. With this, they are already like praetorian or Spartan. Wait, with the cost. Spartan is more worth.

This is hard. Maybe I'll consider it more.
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Re: Macedonian Phalangite rebalance

Post by Endru1241 »

Then let's compare to legionaries:

HP: 25 <==> 24
Attack: 10 <==> 10
Armors: 3/2 <==> 2/1
Speed: 3 <==> 3
Range: 1 <==> 2
Bonuses: exemplary heavy infantry (anti medium and light infantry, some anti-building, anti-siege capability) <==> weaker anti medium and light infantry, similar anti-building, but stronger vs mega)
Special: limited construction <==> full counter or first strike
Requirements: 4 turn tech in specific factory <==> 5 turn tech in Advancements Center already very good for something else.
Trainable: TC, Barracks, Cultural Factory <==> TC, Barracks, Cultural Factory

I'd say they are surprisingly similar.
The only big difference is range, specials and the need of specific cultural building (which could be added to requirements).
Range is vastly superior to armors decreased by 1/1, construction on the other hand has some utility, but it's way more defensive, because main usage would probably be setting barriers to waste action.
In most cases I'd pick range.
Legion training decreases the difference a little, but doesn't make it equal in many scenarios.
Only centurion support really makes legionary preferable.
But there is no hellenic buffer, nor leader yet (not sure which one will be more important, depending on which will be main source of booster effects).
So such addition later on could make things way too OP.

It wouldn't be very big stretch to fit it to balance, but it messes all other hoplites.
Right now we have:
- 6 turn Spartan Hoplite representing heaviest, most armored and trained;
- then cost 4 Ekdromoi as a faster, cheaper support with some more anti-mounted capabilities per cost;
- plus Phalangite with the same cost being very strong vs cavalry and good tactical usage with 2 range;
- lastly cheapest 3 turn light hoplite being little more more anti-building (actually this bonus need some fix - damage vs fortiications is too weak).
I wanted to base Hellenic bonuses around those as potential core army - either supporting each other or buffed the same.
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