Velite rebalance (Buff) IMPLEMENTED

[DreJaDe]

Can someone suggest a good buff for them? Like seriously, they're too weak. Even the normal skirmisher is stronger (strategy-wise). I mean, even praetorians have better skirmishing ability even though it wasn't their job.

The things I could think of are
-allow blacksmith upgrades
(I mean, the normal skirmisher looked ancient and I think medieval skirmisher isn't really that stronger nor have any advantages over the ancient ones. The best ones I know are the atlatl and even then, they are ancient.

-make it have double atk and minus 1 dmg.
At best, they will have 4 range in the range of Centurion through a 5 turn upg. They also have no R. Armor to be proud off. The best I could think of is to make them offensive. Though honestly, I don't even know how to use them offensively with the setbacks.

-add r.armor.
Too simplistic which I don't like but it might do.
Can be just an addition to other buffs

-Make it available to other factories.
I think this is just an addition. I don't even think this is a good buff on its own.

Any other suggestions?

[phoenixffyrnig]

Hmm, I second the idea of buffing them somehow, but can't offer details yet. Romans are one of the few playthroughs i haven't fully explored yet, but just yesterday I was checking out all their stats to prep for a roman game, and I did also pick up on the fact that they seemed weak.

Short range is an obvious weakness - 3 (up to 4 with tech) is rather feeble compared to 4 (up to 6) of standard skirmishers. Their lack of pierce armour is also unhelpful for an anti archer unit. More than that I can't really suggest without having properly tried them.

[Endru1241]

Idea - add an ability slingshot - 5 range, 3 power, slinger bonuses (so +40% vs unshielded light and medium infantry, +20% vs shielded, so +1-2 and +0-1 respectively) and additional 1 damage ignoring armor.

It's a shame effect cannot give 2 different bonuses to 2 completely different categories, because missile tactics should also increase ability range here.

[DreJaDe]

I think that would be a nice addition
Can't you just add it to the ability itself not the aura of Centurion and increase the cost of Missile tactics to 6 (or maybe just add without much repercussion )

This is basically an upg that can only be put normally after 15+turns. So much time for other units and their upg.

A serious bargain. Can you just at the least increase for it's it's R. Armor to 3 as just addition to it's buff.

[Endru1241]

That is the point - I can't.
Neither tech, nor effect can EVER modify base parameters of any effect.

It can only be done by modifying unit parameters used for effect, like ability range, attack or ability power, ability chance.

And legion missile tactics already modify parameters of another unit group (add effect to leaders), so it's out.


Unless you meant to change tech to give straight +1 range to units and +1 ability range to other units.
In this case - I can't.

Engine doesn't allow tech to give 2 different bonuses to 2 completely different categories either.

[DreJaDe]

It seems that I misunderstood.

What about another tech then?
Like 1-3 turns like in seige units.
There's some tech there is like 1 turn (I forgot which is it is).

[L4cus]

i thinnk a u mean the cannon ability? there is that new tech that should affect both, but only affects one, and the secondary (1 turn) affects the others

[Endru1241]

i thinnk a u mean the cannon ability? there is that new tech that should affect both, but only affects one, and the secondary (1 turn) affects the others

That is exactly how it works.
It was the only way to overcome limitation of not having possibility to apply multiple sets.

It seems that I misunderstood.

What about another tech then?
Like 1-3 turns like in seige units.
There's some tech there is like 1 turn (I forgot which is it is).

That was my secondary idea.

But I am wondering if we should even go towards specific roman tech or just forget very old rules and go along with affecting roman units with blacksmith.
In the latter case techs for ability range should be global and in blacksmith.

[DreJaDe]

Uhm, would that remove their buffs now?

I actually kinda like what they are currently though I don't think I was able to face strong opponents yet nor am I that good of a roman player.

In my strats, the only reason I put blacksmith from to time is for easier adaptation. Though as it is, my go to strat of spamming roman garrison for maximum output would change.

Bottom line, im not sure if it's a good idea but for me, the current roman way of buffing still works.

[Endru1241]

Nah, probably not.

Romans don't have any buffer so those bonuses could be an exchange for buffs.
Physician could be then e.g. very effective pure healer.

[DreJaDe]

Nah, probably not.

Romans don't have any buffer so those bonuses could be an exchange for buffs.
Physician could be then e.g. very effective pure healer.

I was actually talking about the centurion with it's specific aura for Romans and the speed buff of their Aenator.

Btw, what are your plans for the vexillarius?

[Endru1241]

Basically foot version of centurion.
Like in original topic:

Like centurion, but cheaper, foot unit with roman aura boost (without morale boost).

Or do you mean when it will be added?

[DreJaDe]

More on the later

I was curious because the update for the Senators was easily put in and I thought the unit idea is now null.

[Endru1241]

More on the later

I was curious because the update for the Senators was easily put in and I thought the unit idea is now null.

Adding a new unit is around an hour. 1 unit.
-Copy json from some similar unit.
-Change parameters.
-Search for new ID.
-Create new unique unitTypeName and write it along with ID to keep count.
-Paste the image and copy relative path to json.
-Add to buildist.
-Create strings for it.
-Add version log mention.
-Load changed assets and test unit.
-Add shopitem.
-Load changed assets and test unit production.

More if any non-standard settings, like transformations, new effects.
Less if made in a bundle to save on testing time.

Making balance changes (those easy) is literally only parameter changes in json plus version log mention.

So I just didn't happen to select theme for bundle that would include vexilarius.

[b2198]

More on the later

I was curious because the update for the Senators was easily put in and I thought the unit idea is now null.

Adding a new unit is around an hour. 1 unit.
-Copy json from some similar unit.
-Change parameters.
-Search for new ID.
-Create new unique unitTypeName and write it along with ID to keep count.
-Paste the image and copy relative path to json.
-Add to buildist.
-Create strings for it.
-Add version log mention.
-Load changed assets and test unit.
-Add shopitem.
-Load changed assets and test unit production.

More if any non-standard settings, like transformations, new effects.
Less if made in a bundle to save on testing time.

Making balance changes (those easy) is literally only parameter changes in json plus version log mention.

So I just didn't happen to select theme for bundle that would include vexilarius.

And all of that without considering the previous steps to actually make the unit: think of concept, decide its numbers, make its image, etc. So yeah, I can imagine creating and adding units takes A LOT of time.

[DreJaDe]

I guess I got complacent seeing how others put multiple units like crazy. I apologize for that.

Btw, now that I think about it again.
Legionaire are anti infantry, Hastati are anti infantry, basically most of roman troops are anti infantry.

The suggestion of that skill is actually not good because this doesn't solve the problem of Romans having weak anti archer or anti skirmish.

Also, going with the flow. Can I also ask about the suggestion of mine for an upgrade for the legionnaire?

[Endru1241]

Btw, now that I think about it again.
Legionaire are anti infantry, Hastati are anti infantry, basically most of roman troops are anti infantry.

The suggestion of that skill is actually not good because this doesn't solve the problem of Romans having weak anti archer or anti skirmish.

Well - we can go easy way and just increase range to 5.
But it would have to be reduced to 4 if romans would have to be affected by blacksmith research.

[DreJaDe]

Wouldn't 5 range be equal to the atl atl which is should have had the longest range for throwing.type skirmish.

I'm okay with the 4 though im still unsure of the blacksmith. Wouldn't that make legionnaire OP now?

Like 3turn unit with a 7 armor. That's not even including the legion training armor.

[Endru1241]

Wouldn't 5 range be equal to the atl atl which is should have had the longest range for throwing.type skirmish.

I'm okay with the 4 though im still unsure of the blacksmith. Wouldn't that make legionnaire OP now?

Like 3turn unit with a 7 armor. That's not even including the legion training armor.

7 armor without legion training?
How?

Or maybe you already counted proposed upgrade?

[DreJaDe]

Legionnaire have 3 armor by default plus centurion which gives 2. No upgrade is needed for that. And you will really need to have centurion for them to work anyway so not including them on the stats feels off.

If we have blacksmith, you will have 7.

[Endru1241]

Looking at it like that Hatamoto or celtic warrior have 6 (3+ 2 from blacksmith + 1 from morale), while latter one is 2 turns and former one faster.

The only thing to make chances mire equal would be to introduce some tech instead of blacksmith, that affects all roman units.
Possibly with same shop upgrade perquisites.

[L4cus]

Manica: anaarmguard developed to fight against falx armed dacian warriors to give more protection to legionaries
Cost 4
Armor +1
Only affects legionaries

Spatha: sword used commonly by roman cavalry but adapted by roman infantry at mid/late empire
Cost 4
Attack +1
Onlyaffects legionaries

Lorica hamata: an adaptation of celtic mail armor used at early days of republic, replaced by lorica stagmata, but used again at late empire. Description say that was used by centurions pretty often
Cost 7
Armor +1
P Armor +1
Affects auxilia/legionaries/centurion

This could replace the idea of making roman units affected by blacksmith upgrades
Info and details extracted from wikipedia

already suggested...

[phoenixffyrnig]

Of those examples though, one is (arguably) OP, and the other has barely half the hp. If blacksmithery was added, the easily possible combo of mêlée armour and pierce armour being in double digits for legionaries is what slightly concerns me though. I suppose on the one hand that doesn't make a huge difference Vs the legionaries natural enemies, cav and anti-heavy infantry, but on the other hand that's a whole lot of armour for something that can come out of TCs en masse.

Praetorian might need a downward tweak of stats if this were the case, perhaps Sagitarrius too, maybe even drop base attack by 1 for legionary considering effect of roads too, but I there does seem to be a consensus opinion that we need to do something for the Romans.

[Endru1241]

Of those examples though, one is (arguably) OP, and the other has barely half the hp. If blacksmithery was added, the easily possible combo of mêlée armour and pierce armour being in double digits for legionaries is what slightly concerns me though. I suppose on the one hand that doesn't make a huge difference Vs the legionaries natural enemies, cav and anti-heavy infantry, but on the other hand that's a whole lot of armour for something that can come out of TCs en masse.

Praetorian might need a downward tweak of stats if this were the case, perhaps Sagitarrius too, maybe even drop base attack by 1 for legionary considering effect of roads too, but I there does seem to be a consensus opinion that we need to do something for the Romans.

The only way to make double digit then would be to have 3 others supporting it.
Technically single legionary could have high castle adjacent along with two ballista or cannon towers all fully loaded (well let's leave 1 space for production in castle) with wagons fully loaded with legionaries - it's 9 wagons x 3 legionaries so +27/+27.
Right now.
Even if we deem such placement improbable +6/+6 with two wagons is achievable, so along with centurion it's already double digits - 10.
Yet it doesn't make them OP.

Because alone they don't matter much and it wouldn't change with addition of blacksmith bonuses.

Manica: anaarmguard developed to fight against falx armed dacian warriors to give more protection to legionaries
Cost 4
Armor +1
Only affects legionaries

Spatha: sword used commonly by roman cavalry but adapted by roman infantry at mid/late empire
Cost 4
Attack +1
Onlyaffects legionaries

Lorica hamata: an adaptation of celtic mail armor used at early days of republic, replaced by lorica stagmata, but used again at late empire. Description say that was used by centurions pretty often
Cost 7
Armor +1
P Armor +1
Affects auxilia/legionaries/centurion

This could replace the idea of making roman units affected by blacksmith upgrades
Info and details extracted from wikipedia

already suggested...

I remember.
Not sure if answered though.

Too specific flavour-wise imho.
Such stats could be used if attack boosting would be added for all of roman units.

But in the end I am not very convinced of such thing being good idea - why add specific boosting techs, when we could just turn on general ones again?

[L4cus]

what about "attack order" or "order attack" to boost all melee roman units...
u know...i am starting to think that allow BlackSmith techs affect roman...

[godOfKings]

If u r really planning to add blacksmith-like techs just to increase roman stats, then i guess directly putting them under blacksmith tech is almost the same, may b to point out its more backward than medieval era, only the blacksmith lvl 1 techs of all kinds r applicable to romans, cant get any advantage from blacksmith 2 techs

In fact i think the same can b done to celts, with blacksmith 1 techs applicable to all celt units (including celt warrior) and instead they cant get blacksmith 2 techs (that is also more logical with advancement of eras like blacksmith 2 techs r researched in the medieval era not ancient era, may b we can also make it that some blacksmith 2 techs like armor and dmg increase stat by +2 instead of +1 to point out the advantage of superior medieval technology over ancient technology, after all the lvl 2 techs already cost more than lvl 1 techs)

Actually this way makes it easier to balance the difference between different cultures without needing to work on too many separate techs that dont even give any major advantage in late game

[L4cus]

well, attack order seems a better option now...
maybe another aura for centuaura (centurion), or just a +1 for all roman units and thats all...

wait, maybe a +2 attack for non auxilia roman units, and another tech called "cultural assimilation" that gives +1 attack to auxiliars

[Endru1241]

Actually with stratego idea for cultures to all be balanced we have to drop any thought about ancient cultures.

Romans must be understood as something like "what if roman empire lasted another 1000 years, even if in limited terrain as a kingdom".

Similarly to current assumption about celts to be the game faction since before roman invasion up to battles against high medieval england.

[Endru1241]

Implemented range change.

Boost to all romans is coming.