Celtic warrior needs a proper damage bonus list

[Endru1241]

How about instead swapping him out of TC for another unit, such as woad spearman - make him more of a rewardable choice than a ubiquitous possibility? Seems to be fashionable to nerf the Celts, but they really aren't that easy to play with, especially compared to Japanese or Norse. So if the wish is to nerf their only worthwhile cheap unit (and ruin any balance for a Celtic army), what are they, as a faction, going to get in return?

nerfing this unit will make the whole faction weak?

Not weak, but so easily countered. Tbf though , Vs a good player, this is the same thing.
It is straightforward to beat a Celtic army.

How about instead swapping him out of TC for another unit, such as woad spearman

I'm considering the faction as a whole here, and offering a suggestion that does redress the balance by limiting his availability.
Spearman and saethwr and gaelic warrior and gollowglass and chariot - all factory specific. Putting a unit in a chariot - easy to kill both. Highlanders - very limited effectiveness on the battlefield. Chieftain - arguably the weakest leader. How would you field a Celtic army?

My suggestion negates the spam argument. But then again, many things are "too strong" when spammed - hatamoto, axemen, longbowmen, triremes, hwacha, forts, ballista towers... instead of trying to nerf everything that is strong in a specific context I feel we should be more focused on the bigger picture, and counterability. How strong really is an Elite Celtic warrior against a master slinger or a heavy Knight? Not at all! He's got one job that he's bloody good at, but he's useless for everything else - in a way, that is balanced.

Macemen can one shot most heavies. Flailman, well if we use your suggestion of pairing with an archer, then he too will finish the job. My question still stands - what would you give the Celts in return for nerfing their only worthwhile cheap unit? Every unit is too strong if you only focus on how good they are at the role they have been designed for.

@phoenixffyrnig here b2198 mentioned the main reasons y celt warrior needs this nerf, i m sry mate i aint blaming u i too use celt warriors too frequently

How about instead swapping him out of TC for another unit, such as woad spearman -

And I reply by repeating myself. Zerk was too strong for a unit that was available everywhere at any time - that was not a problem with the unit. Same thing here.

(let's not even bother by saying Zerk costs 4 instead of 2,because a Zerk would take many times the killing than a Celtic warrior)

And this post is definitely not due to me raging on our multiplayer battle result

And no, I'm not getting defensive about that, as mentioned elsewhere I have ditched the celts as a signature style, I just don't believe an automatic movement towards nerfing is the best way to find balance when
a) easy counters exist
b) the spammability argument is an argument against how they are used (ie availability, multi buffing etc) rather than a problem with the unit itself.

If we nerfed everything that was strong we would end up with all our units with 20 armour and 1 attack (réductio ad absurbum, I admit, but it is a relevant point).

Moving them to veterans roundhouse would still not be enough imho. While this could work with a more reasonable nerf, it alone doesn't solve the problem, just pushes it later in the game. Differently from zerks, where the problem was that there was no easy way to stop them early on, so pushing them to only be available a little later in the game solved it, here the problems are two imo:

1. celtic warriors are too good of a counter to ANY melee foot unit, not just some categories of them, and that detracts a lot from that entire category of units, since celtic warriors are so easily avail... ok, this point I'm handing to you, moving them to veterans roundhouse would help for sure, but still not entirely, because
2. celtic warriors have the SECOND BEST damage scaling in the entire game against any flesh-and-blood units, seconded only by backstab ninjas, which (I believe) were made to be sneaky one-shoters, similar to assassins (which could use some changes, but that is for another topic), both of which cost 4 turns, and after the cultural separation of buffs, ninjas won't have nearly as much potential for getting a lot of buffs and upgrades stacked to deal ridiculous amounts of damage, as they will only get a +2 from bushido aura, +2 from blacksmith and +1 from tell fortune, resulting in a maximum possible damage of (4+2+2+1)*5 = 45 if everything is set up previously for them to do that. Meanwhile, celtic warriors with war paint + geass:attack + blacksmith can deal up to (8+1+5+2)*2 = 32 damage TWO TIMES per turn, and the only part of this that is harder to set up is the druid usage, but that harder usage still doesn't make up for a 2 cost unit dealing up to 64 damage in a single turn even after the buffer changes imho.

My suggestion is now:

• Make celtic warriors medium infantry (more durable against heavy infantry, less so against medium and heavy cavalry)
• Increase their base armor from 2/1 -> 3/2 to 3/1 -> 4/2, so that they will get one-shotted by considerably less units and will have an easier time attacking without dying from counter.
• Make them only available in veterans roundhouse and barracks, so that they are a light/medium infantry counter solution more exclusive to the celts and infantry users in general, instead of being spammed from any TC when any infantry approaches.
• Switch their current bonuses for the following ones:
  • 70% against [light infantry][melee] or [irregular infantry], reducing total scaling from 400% to 340%, making them the (as far as I've checked) 4th best scaling against flesh-and-blood, with second and third place becoming svardstavier, against elephants, and japanese cavalry, against heavy infantry (this one I believe might need a nerf soon too, but that too is for another topic. Also I might be wrong here, didn't test it enough yet and haven't calculated yet their possible stats after the buffer changes). And reducing maximum damage possible from 2x32 to 2x27 (2x22 to 2x18 without druid) (, which is still VERY high, but now only against these targets, and being not as available as before.
  • 50% against [medium infantry], reducing total scaling from 400% to 300%, and maximum damage possible from 2x32 to 2x24 (2x22 to 2x16 without druid), which is still very high, but some of them will now at least take both hits to kill, and will be dealing a little less damage back on counter, so that they are a little less susceptible to dying after attacking.
  • 40% against [heavy infantry], reducing total scaling from 400% to 280%, and maximum damage possible from 2x32 to 2x22 (2x22 to 2x15 without druid), which is still decent even when considering how much armor these usually have, and they will take a lot less damage from these targets when attacked due to the category change, making being one-shotted way less likely.

(Adjusted a bit the numbers after reading Endru's response that was posted while I was writting this)

Well if we use the argument of specific buffers then japanese are way stronger.
Let's compare with hatamotos. Both fully faction buffed at the late game:
Celtic warrior:
16 attack x 2 , 15 hp, 5/4 armors (9/12 on enemy turn), 5 speed
Hatamoto:
15 attack x2, 25 hp, 6/4 armors, aura giving enemy -2 attack, -1/1 armors, 4 speed

And attacking elite foot knight they'd:
celtic warrior: (19-8)*2 = 22 damage, while taking (floor(16/2)-5)*2=6
It's left with 9/15 hp and takes 16*(100%+50%) - 9 = 15.

hatamoto: (15-7)*2 = 16 damage, while taking (floor((16-2)/2)*(100%+30%)-6)*2=6
It's left with 19/25 hp and takes (16-2)*(100%+30%)-6=12 damage, so left with 7/25 hp

Remind me which one has bonuses against buildings and which one is supposed to go against infantry?

After changes, it would become:
celtic warrior: (22-8)*2 = 28 damage, while taking (floor((16/2)-6)*2=4
it's left with 11/15 hp and takes 16*1.3 - 10 = 10, so left with 1/15 hp

Even though heavy infantry wouldn't be their best target anymore they would still be good against it. And with medium, light or irregular infantry the result would be WAY more in favour of them.

Also hatamoto costs 3, while celtic warrior costs 2.

That's not exactly what I would aim for.
I was thinking, that celtic warrior should be for the infantry what spearman is for the cavalry.

So all that is needed to make it similar is:
+30% vs light, medium and irregular melee infantry
+40% vs heavy melee infantry
Additional X damage applied to each foot melee by each attack, where X is ability power - 2 for unupgraded and 3 for upgraded.

Analysis of percentage of hp as damage assuming:
normal - no techs, base unit
upg - 1st upgraded unit, +1 blacksmith
late game - full upgrade, full tech
buffed full upgrade, full tech, geass:attack / reinforce armor
Currently
vs spear vs swordsman vs foot knight
normal 100.00% 72.22% 45.45%
upg 100.00% 76.19% 46.15%
late game 105.56% 75.00% 45.16%
buffed 155.56% 112.50% 74.19%
70%/50%/40% proposition
vs spear vs swordsman vs foot knight
normal 76.92% 50.00% 22.73%
upg 81.25% 52.38% 23.08%
late game 83.33% 50.00% 22.58%
buffed 127.78% 79.17% 41.94%
30%+X/30%+X/40%+X proposition
vs spear vs swordsman vs foot knight
normal 76.92% 55.56% 31.82%
upg 75.00% 57.14% 34.62%
late game 77.78% 54.17% 32.26%
buffed 105.56% 75.00% 51.61%

So then:
- with both attacks it deals over 50% of hp to foot knight, so 2 celtic warriors can deal with 1 foot knight.
- can deal with foot knight alone only if buffed twice by druid and barely as it's pricier buffer than blacksmith.
- no longer one shots spearman line with each attack.
- even if not upgraded it would have some utility against late game fully upgraded heavy infantry.
- much smoother damage increase/attack increase relation and lower maximum damage.

[b2198]

That's not exactly what I would aim for.
I was thinking, that celtic warrior should be for the infantry what spearman is for the cavalry.

So all that is needed to make it similar is:
+30% vs light, medium and irregular melee infantry
+40% vs heavy melee infantry
Additional X damage applied to each foot melee by each attack, where X is ability power - 2 for unupgraded and 3 for upgraded.

Analysis of percentage of hp as damage assuming:
normal - no techs, base unit
upg - 1st upgraded unit, +1 blacksmith
late game - full upgrade, full tech
buffed full upgrade, full tech, geass:attack / reinforce armor
Currently
vs spear vs swordsman vs foot knight
normal 100.00% 72.22% 45.45%
upg 100.00% 76.19% 46.15%
late game 105.56% 75.00% 45.16%
buffed 155.56% 112.50% 74.19%
70%/50%/40% proposition
vs spear vs swordsman vs foot knight
normal 76.92% 50.00% 22.73%
upg 81.25% 52.38% 23.08%
late game 83.33% 50.00% 22.58%
buffed 127.78% 79.17% 41.94%
30%+X/30%+X/40%+X proposition
vs spear vs swordsman vs foot knight
normal 76.92% 55.56% 31.82%
upg 75.00% 57.14% 34.62%
late game 77.78% 54.17% 32.26%
buffed 105.56% 75.00% 51.61%

So then:
- with both attacks it deals over 50% of hp to foot knight, so 2 celtic warriors can deal with 1 foot knight.
- can deal with foot knight alone only if buffed twice by druid and barely as it's pricier buffer than blacksmith.
- no longer one shots spearman line with each attack.
- even if not upgraded it would have some utility against late game fully upgraded heavy infantry.
- much smoother damage increase/attack increase relation and lower maximum damage.

Hm, fair enough. These numbers also seem good for me.

[godOfKings]

In my defense, i didnt research well enough and my bonus list suggestion was haphazard but dont ignore another point that it is possible to make a celt warrior survive with gaess survive after he finished killing enemies infront, but if u kill using hatamoto (or any other unit including heavy infantry) they can still b easily killed by oponents next turn, hatamoto by arrows, heavy infantry by anti heavy infantry units

Meanwhile the only unit that has a chance to one shot full health (full health cuz druid also has healing and celt hp is low) gaess survive celt warrior is a buffed cavalier, it is simply cuz i saw how with a proper player utilising celts, a celt warrior can almost b a better defensive unit than other heavy infantry that i suddenly had the thought, ok they r being played well defensively, time to nerf their atk so other defensive units also have a chance defending and not instead act like a weak easily one shotted celt warrior in front of the real celt warrior

My point of view was to make heavy infantry play at least as a role at tanking as good as a gaess survive celt warrior does, especially against other infantry atks, of which celt warrior seemed the only odd one out cuz while maceman and flailman can also one shot foot knight with buffs, at least they can still b killed much easily on opponents turn and we r trading blows at each other, not like a case where celt warrior just chilling in front of me after cleaning up the field of my troops, with a gaess survive

[godOfKings]

I m thinking if celt warrior plays defensively well, then other defensive foot units should play against celt warrior well, if we want to keep the damage output then gaess survive might instead need a nerf, and i m still not willing to go that extreme against celt

[Endru1241]

If that's the case, then maybe geass survive is too strong.

It's supposed to make unit have high chance of survival, but not to make them completely unhurt.
Maybe indeed +10 p.armor is too much for that.

[godOfKings]

How about, +3 armor, + 4 p.armor, with blacksmith buffs gallowglass clould also have 8 armor like elite foot knight

And the special feature would b the surviving unit would need one more hit as direct killing atk will only reduce hp to 1

In the future most buffs will also have rework or become culture specific so it wont b possible to have op dmg on single unit easily, then this defense nerf wont b too big of a drawback

In fact this change could probably b implemented at the same time with other support units spell rework, meanwhile this topic is about celt bonus damage list which seems almost finalised and ready for implementation immediately.

[Endru1241]

How about, +3 armor, + 4 p.armor, with blacksmith buffs gallowglass clould also have 8 armor like elite foot knight

And the special feature would b the surviving unit would need one more hit as direct killing atk will only reduce hp to 1

How did we go from:

gaess survive might instead need a nerf, and i m still not willing to go that extreme against celt

to geass survive from +6/+10 nerfed to +3/+4.

Having geass survive only remove defensive difference between units doesn't really mitigate being it locked for 1 turn.
Extremes are always bad.

[godOfKings]

Read my topic again, i edited the post to add more of my views and how 'later' this change will b implemented, and there is also mistaken gaess

How about +4/+5?

[Endru1241]

In the future most buffs will also have rework or become culture specific so it wont b possible to have op dmg on single unit easily, then this defense nerf wont b too big of a drawback

In fact this change could probably b implemented at the same time with other support units spell rework, meanwhile this topic is about celt bonus damage list which seems almost finalised and ready for implementation immediately.

Even without any buffs on enemy side +3/4 doesn't cut it considering removal of unit from usage.

Celtic warrior buffed to survive would have 8/8 armors with 15 hp.

And single attack from foot knight deals 16*(100%+50%)-8 = 16.
Each longbowman attack 10*(100%+40%)-8 = 6.
Even man-at-arms 16-8 = 8, so it only needs 2 attacks.

I was thinking of leaving +6 melee armor, but just nerf +10 p.armor to something like +5.
Then we'd have celtic warrior with 11/9, so:
Foot knight would deal 16*(100%+50%)-11 = 13.
Longbowman attack 10*(100%+40%)-9 = 5.
Arbalest attack 9*(100%+40%)-9 = 3.
Man-at-arms 16-11 = 5.

Much better.
Still, 8/6 is quite big for early game though, but getting early game versions of effect is hell of a work to do.

Edit:

Read my topic again, i edited the post to add more of my views and how 'later' this change will b implemented, and there is also mistaken gaess

How about +4/+5?

Better for early game, but would be insufficient for late game.

[godOfKings]

Early game celt warrior will have 7/7 armor with gaess survive, late game elite celt warrior could have 8/7 armor if the proposed increased armor to 4/2 is implemented with damage bonus nerf

Also remember by the time gaess survive nerfed with other support units, mounted or anti infantry units will no longer get the bard dmg buff or double action buff so their capabilities will also b weaker (except for some culture specific ones)

[b2198]

In the future most buffs will also have rework or become culture specific so it wont b possible to have op dmg on single unit easily, then this defense nerf wont b too big of a drawback

In fact this change could probably b implemented at the same time with other support units spell rework, meanwhile this topic is about celt bonus damage list which seems almost finalised and ready for implementation immediately.

Even without any buffs on enemy side +3/4 doesn't cut it considering removal of unit from usage.

Celtic warrior buffed to survive would have 8/8 armors with 15 hp.

And single attack from foot knight deals 16*(100%+50%)-8 = 16.
Each longbowman attack 10*(100%+40%)-8 = 6.
Even man-at-arms 16-8 = 8, so it only needs 2 attacks.

I was thinking of leaving +6 melee armor, but just nerf +10 p.armor to something like +5.
Then we'd have celtic warrior with 11/9, so:
Foot knight would deal 16*(100%+50%)-11 = 13.
Longbowman attack 10*(100%+40%)-9 = 5.
Arbalest attack 9*(100%+40%)-9 = 3.
Man-at-arms 16-11 = 5.

Much better.
Still, 8/6 is quite big for early game though, but getting early game versions of effect is hell of a work to do.

Yeah, but still, if all the suggested changes are implemented, you'd need a veterans roundhouse to make both druid and celtic warrior (or a veterans rondhouse for druid and barracks for celtic warrior), so by the time you get access to that buff the early game has almost ended already, so I don't think it'd be too strong, and also with 3/1 base armor it would get to 9/6, 10/7 on upgrade, 12/9 with blacksmith, and 13/10 with morale aura, which I think is quite fair for a buff that also removes damage for that unit, lasts for 2 turns (so a mistaken geass would be required to attack with it in the following turn), and can be cancelled by the enemy on their turn. Also also, if they get recategorized to medium infantry, foot knights (and other heavy infantry) will deal less damage to them.

[b2198]

How about, +3 armor, + 4 p.armor, with blacksmith buffs gallowglass clould also have 8 armor like elite foot knight

And the special feature would b the surviving unit would need one more hit as direct killing atk will only reduce hp to 1

In the future most buffs will also have rework or become culture specific so it wont b possible to have op dmg on single unit easily, then this defense nerf wont b too big of a drawback

In fact this change could probably b implemented at the same time with other support units spell rework, meanwhile this topic is about celt bonus damage list which seems almost finalised and ready for implementation immediately.

Read my topic again, i edited the post to add more of my views and how 'later' this change will b implemented, and there is also mistaken gaess

How about +4/+5?

Early game celt warrior will have 7/7 armor with gaess survive, late game elite celt warrior could have 8/7 armor if the proposed increased armor to 4/2 is implemented with damage bonus nerf

Also remember by the time gaess survive nerfed with other support units, mounted or anti infantry units will no longer get the bard dmg buff or double action buff so their capabilities will also b weaker (except for some culture specific ones)

I'm pretty sure Endru is already considering no buffs to the other units in his numbers. And they would still deal considerable damage to celtic warriors with a nerf that big. Also mistaken geass costs an action, making that druid incapable of buffing both his attacks in the following turn, and can be removed by an enemy druid, negating it entirely.

[godOfKings]

Anyways this topic wasnt even about nerfing gaess survive, that can b considered later when the other support units changes r implemented

This topic is about balancing celt stats so lets just make a last post about finalised stats and consider it ready