Gunpowder rejig

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phoenixffyrnig
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Gunpowder rejig

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

I really like the added depth the recent changes to siege brings (even though it does slow me down somewhat) - the following suggestions are to break in effective gunpowder units a bit less immediately, to reflect the evolution of black powder as a process rather than a sudden event, and to slightly rebalance gunpowder things that have stayed the same whilst other siege things have had more techs/stages added.

Cannon attack (apologies, this is something you asked about before applying the new changes - I am better at retrospective assessment than projection and extrapolation)
I think Cannon Tower, Cannon and Cannon Ship should be less powerful to begin with considering they are so quickly available - I appreciate that it does take a lot of time to get them to full power, but I think their entry level is too strong for the timing (ie potentially turn 12 onwards, but don't worry, I'm going in a different direction than my usual request of a total gunpowder embargo).

Suggestion - all cannon attacks have a nerf of -2 power (possibly even -3) along with -1 range. These will be added back with the hoop and stave tech, ie nerf the entry point, but boost the tech, so hoop and stave would give +4 ( or 5) and +2 range. For the undecided -1 power, I am wondering if
a) it's too much of a change
b) would be better off added with the hoop and stave tech
or c) better off added into the respective unit's upgrade.

In short, same end result, but a longer and more involved procedure to get there.

Cannon ability these have largely been "buffed by association", mainly because they are immune to movement takes action, and already had no miss chance.

Relevant to Forts, Turtle Ships, Carrack line and Corsair Ship. As above, I suggest to reduce initial ability by -2 (or 3) power and -1 range - again, all to be brought back by ability Hoop and Stave tech (I like that this is locked behind normal hoop and stave).
Re Corsair Ship - possibly reduce its ability range by 1 anyway? It is a de facto cannon ship without the movement take action penalty

Firearm attack Handgonner, Tanehashima, Mounted HG, Elephant HG, Strelets - nerf initial attack by -1 power, -1 range (and possibly -1 active effect bonus dam) but all to be brought back up to current level with a tech. I'm aware something like this has been mentioned several times before, so you may well have something in the pipeline.

Possibility of making the AE bonus dam ignore armour upon research of aforementioned tech (or even a cheap separate tech) to reflect penetrative power of improved bullets (if improved bullets existed in our time frame - when were lead balls replaced by pointer, harder bullets?).

Firearm ability Reiter and Late Hungarian Hussar - nerf initial attack by -1, but add cheap tech for +1 power +1 range, again, possibly make the bonus damage ignore armour.

For gunpowder attacks, both cannon and firearm, should we increase the initial miss chance, but reduce to current levels upon research of tech, either a pre-existing one or another cheap but new one?

And, should/could some of the more technically advanced upgrades be locked behind an upgrade to the Advancement Centre such as a University / Alchemists Hall? I feel we could be doing more with upgraded factories than currently.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

Post by b2198 »

phoenixffyrnig wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:59 pm Cannon attack (apologies, this is something you asked about before applying the new changes - I am better at retrospective assessment than projection and extrapolation)
I think Cannon Tower, Cannon and Cannon Ship should be less powerful to begin with considering they are so quickly available - I appreciate that it does take a lot of time to get them to full power, but I think their entry level is too strong for the timing (ie potentially turn 12 onwards, but don't worry, I'm going in a different direction than my usual request of a total gunpowder embargo).
I haven't tested enough their current state to get the larger picture on these properly, but from what I'm seeing so far, yeah, I agree.
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:59 pm Suggestion - all cannon attacks have a nerf of -2 power (possibly even -3) along with -1 range. These will be added back with the hoop and stave tech, ie nerf the entry point, but boost the tech, so hoop and stave would give +4 ( or 5) and +2 range. For the undecided -1 power, I am wondering if
a) it's too much of a change
b) would be better off added with the hoop and stave tech
or c) better off added into the respective unit's upgrade.

In short, same end result, but a longer and more involved procedure to get there.
I think -2 is enough, -3 would drop cannon tower's initial damage to 12, which I find a little bit too low, so I'd go with "a"
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:59 pm Cannon ability these have largely been "buffed by association", mainly because they are immune to movement takes action, and already had no miss chance.

Relevant to Forts, Turtle Ships, Carrack line and Corsair Ship. As above, I suggest to reduce initial ability by -2 (or 3) power and -1 range - again, all to be brought back by ability Hoop and Stave tech (I like that this is locked behind normal hoop and stave).
Re Corsair Ship - possibly reduce its ability range by 1 anyway? It is a de facto cannon ship without the movement take action penalty
100% agree here
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:59 pm Firearm attack Handgonner, Tanehashima, Mounted HG, Elephant HG, Strelets - nerf initial attack by -1 power, -1 range (and possibly -1 active effect bonus dam) but all to be brought back up to current level with a tech. I'm aware something like this has been mentioned several times before, so you may well have something in the pipeline.

Possibility of making the AE bonus dam ignore armour upon research of aforementioned tech (or even a cheap separate tech) to reflect penetrative power of improved bullets (if improved bullets existed in our time frame - when were lead balls replaced by pointer, harder bullets?).
I'm not sure about these because the techs that improve firearms are not in the game yet, so currently I have no clue if this will be needed or not.
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:59 pm Firearm ability Reiter and Late Hungarian Hussar - nerf initial attack by -1, but add cheap tech for +1 power +1 range, again, possibly make the bonus damage ignore armour.

For gunpowder attacks, both cannon and firearm, should we increase the initial miss chance, but reduce to current levels upon research of tech, either a pre-existing one or another cheap but new one?
Same as above
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:59 pm And, should/could some of the more technically advanced upgrades be locked behind an upgrade to the Advancement Centre such as a University / Alchemists Hall? I feel we could be doing more with upgraded factories than currently.
Yes! Now that we'll have upgraded stables to have a more unique utility compared to the others, maybe some of the other factories could also receive some more uniqueness to their upgraded versions, like unlocking new researchable techs in this case.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

Post by Endru1241 »

Cannon attack: If I were to nerf cannons further - there would need to be new tech to bring back the stats and it would probably fit more after field artillery+gunpowder, while being additional requirement for Hoop and Stave. Or alternatively another one after Hoop and Stave, requiring something other (maybe some gun tech).
But I don't think it would be good to have more range changes. Damage, miss chance - maybe.

Cannon ability: No miss chance is engine limitation. I want to add it to abilities similar to siege attacks, but currently effect miss would work against everything, including buildings. And there is no way to redirect effect to random adjacent tile in case of miss.
I'd like to have effect costing movement, but there are only options for cost: action, power, hp or other units.

Surely cannon shot could be reduced in damage and range though.

Firearm attack: Reducing damage and range to be added with tech is the plan.
Interesting idea to move added armor ignoring damage to tech, but it has one huge limitation.
It would be hard to copy it to ability.
There is barely anything, that tech could affect ability with (to be precise there is none, but ability power, range and chance are also unit stats, that can directly affect those) and normally it can only grant techs.
Recently there was effect revoke option added, so that could be used to replace abilities with ones, that have related effect.

Firearm ability: Again - damage and range reduction is the plan.
Additional damage - explained above.

Upgraded factories: They should be somehow used, but I don't like the idea for them to be only tech givers.
In such way at the total tech one is no longer needed.
Units locked behind is not very good either, as that would promote easier ways to get similar units - e.g. faction buildings.
And in most cases in those buildings, that have upgrades the most cost-effective endgame productions are units, that are and need to be available from the start.
Proposed stables bonus is something I'd go along - almost each one would need that to function will heightened effectiveness even at the advanced game.
Advancements center while for flavour it could fit to have an upgrade and some techs only in those.
For balance though - it would only be waste of time making image of upgraded building, as increasing tech cost or adding another requirement is effectively the same.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

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Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:41 pm Cannon attack: If I were to nerf cannons further - there would need to be new tech to bring back the stats and it would probably fit more after field artillery+gunpowder, while being additional requirement for Hoop and Stave. Or alternatively another one after Hoop and Stave, requiring something other (maybe some gun tech).
But I don't think it would be good to have more range changes. Damage, miss chance - maybe.
Hm, yeah, the range changes might be a little too much, specially for the tower.

I do like the idea of having a middle research for gunpowder units after field ballistics but before advanced ballistics though, would make them grow in power alongside other siege units, showing again that they will slowly but surely start to outperform them as the game progresses.
Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:41 pm Firearm attack: Reducing damage and range to be added with tech is the plan.
Interesting idea to move added armor ignoring damage to tech, but it has one huge limitation.
It would be hard to copy it to ability.
There is barely anything, that tech could affect ability with (to be precise there is none, but ability power, range and chance are also unit stats, that can directly affect those) and normally it can only grant techs.
Recently there was effect revoke option added, so that could be used to replace abilities with ones, that have related effect.
What if instead the damage that ignores armor increases with it, by the means of ability power? Something like dealing initially a +2 damage, and then a +5 or something like that.
Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:41 pm Upgraded factories: They should be somehow used, but I don't like the idea for them to be only tech givers.
In such way at the total tech one is no longer needed.
Maybe they could, idk, have an ability to spawn scholars every few turns (similar to roman garrison), and they have the same production boosting ability as money couriers, but can only target upgraded factories, high castles and monasteries? That would also incentivize players to upgrade their factories if they want to increase their production, and the cooldown on it would mean it's not efficient to only make these for boosting production, as the total production of units will be way lower than otherwise.
Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:41 pm Units locked behind is not very good either, as that would promote easier ways to get similar units - e.g. faction buildings.
And in most cases in those buildings, that have upgrades the most cost-effective endgame productions are units, that are and need to be available from the start.
That makes sense.
Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:41 pm For balance though - it would only be waste of time making image of upgraded building, as increasing tech cost or adding another requirement is effectively the same.
Even if above suggestion is rejected, they'd still have more hp, armor and probably garrison, so it wouldn't be really a waste of time... Plus upgraded factories look cooler than normal ones, as they should XD
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

there would need to be new tech to bring back the stats and it would probably fit more after field artillery+gunpowder
I'm not at all a scholar of martial history, but a quick internet search reveals 2 potentially game changing developments - corned gunpowder (which I believe you have mentioned before somewhere Endru) - did this have a noticeable effect on artillery as well as small arms?
And muzzle up casting, which seems to have made for stronger, longer barrels.

Quite how to separate these two events into their effects on range/power/accuracy, I'm not sure (or even if two separate techs are needed) but I'm fairly confident you will know more than me about this.

My mention of range changes was to give things like the advanced siège logistics a chance to temporarily hold some upper hand rather than to be almost instantly negated. As a case in point, I wonder what chance two level 3 rams would have against 1 cannon tower (both without any other upgrades), the sort of situation we could expect around turns 15-20.
and already had no miss chance.
No miss chance is engine limitation.
Yeah, thats what I mean - I know this isn't a quick fix situation, but feel that cannon ability could do with being nerfed so it's more in line with current cannon attack limitations.
It would be hard to copy it to ability
(there's probably a good reason for this, but...) why not change things around so that pistol shot was the action and mêlée attack was the ability? Would that allow the desired addition of an armour ignoring factor?

Re factory upgrades - yeah, worthy points. Damn, I'll keep thinking then - I'd really like if they had a bit more effect on gameplay than currently, something a bit more worthwhile or useful than increased hp - the reality is that in late game any frontline factory would be too easy to destroy for extra hp/heal/garrison to make much difference, and any factory not near the frontline wouldn't benefit from these... as you imply, there's no point including this just for the sake of it.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

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b2198 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 11:14 pm
Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:41 pm Interesting idea to move added armor ignoring damage to tech, but it has one huge limitation.
It would be hard to copy it to ability.
There is barely anything, that tech could affect ability with (to be precise there is none, but ability power, range and chance are also unit stats, that can directly affect those) and normally it can only grant techs.
Recently there was effect revoke option added, so that could be used to replace abilities with ones, that have related effect.
What if instead the damage that ignores armor increases with it, by the means of ability power? Something like dealing initially a +2 damage, and then a +5 or something like that.
Unfortunately those units with gun abilities already use abilityPower for main damage.
Endru1241 wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:41 pm Upgraded factories: They should be somehow used, but I don't like the idea for them to be only tech givers.
In such way at the total tech one is no longer needed.
Maybe they could, idk, have an ability to spawn scholars every few turns (similar to roman garrison), and they have the same production boosting ability as money couriers, but can only target upgraded factories, high castles and monasteries? That would also incentivize players to upgrade their factories if they want to increase their production, and the cooldown on it would mean it's not efficient to only make these for boosting production, as the total production of units will be way lower than otherwise.
Interesting idea.
I am a little worried about increasing unit spam then though.
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:12 am
there would need to be new tech to bring back the stats and it would probably fit more after field artillery+gunpowder
I'm not at all a scholar of martial history, but a quick internet search reveals 2 potentially game changing developments - corned gunpowder (which I believe you have mentioned before somewhere Endru) - did this have a noticeable effect on artillery as well as small arms?
For corned gunpowder my initial idea was to remove miss chance for gun shooters as it mainly increased reliability, but I wonder now.
Maybe this could be used as + attack tech for both gunners and cannons.
And muzzle up casting, which seems to have made for stronger, longer barrels.
Quite how to separate these two events into their effects on range/power/accuracy, I'm not sure (or even if two separate techs are needed) but I'm fairly confident you will know more than me about this.
Well there is also matchlock or just slow match - big effect on reliability.
Casting techniques were impacting cannons too.
And I think casting with muzzle up was natural step when they discovered, that cannons or hand weapons most commonly break at the opposite side of it.
But it happened only after casting was common so around the very end of 15th century.
So imho in regards of cannon/guns it would be something like:
Bell founding techniques with brass or bronze -> Hoop and stave with wrought iron -> cast bronze -> cast iron
Cast iron is probably too modern for AoS.
My mention of range changes was to give things like the advanced siège logistics a chance to temporarily hold some upper hand rather than to be almost instantly negated. As a case in point, I wonder what chance two level 3 rams would have against 1 cannon tower (both without any other upgrades), the sort of situation we could expect around turns 15-20.
Understandable. But decreasing the attack would also change the balance.
It would be hard to copy it to ability
(there's probably a good reason for this, but...) why not change things around so that pistol shot was the action and mêlée attack was the ability? Would that allow the desired addition of an armour ignoring factor?
Unfortunately impossible. Effect cannot cause counterattack, so that would totally break anti-cavalry units.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

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Endru1241 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:54 pm Unfortunately those units with gun abilities already use abilityPower for main damage.
Then maybe letting it increase both, and adjust the total damage with bonuses?
Endru1241 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:54 pm Interesting idea.
I am a little worried about increasing unit spam then though.
Wouldn't be an issue if the cooldown is something like 4 or 5 turns, because if people spammed these to get more uses of the ability, they would effectively cut their unit production rate by almost 3/4 or 4/5, since advancement centers themselves don't (and I think won't) produce battle-oriented units. So doing that would give you techs very fast, but with almost no units, and after that you'd be probably outnumbered to death.
phoenixffyrnig wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:12 am My mention of range changes was to give things like the advanced siège logistics a chance to temporarily hold some upper hand rather than to be almost instantly negated. As a case in point, I wonder what chance two level 3 rams would have against 1 cannon tower (both without any other upgrades), the sort of situation we could expect around turns 15-20.
current:
cannon tower damage vs lv1 ram = 37
cannon tower damage vs lv2 ram = 35
cannon tower damage vs lv3 ram = 33
lv1 ram hp = 100
lv2 ram hp = 120
lv3 ram hp = 140
hits to kill lv1 ram = ceil(100/37) = 3
hits to kill lv2 ram = ceil(120/35) = 4
hits to kill lv3 ram = ceil(140/33) = 5
cannon tower range = 7
cannon tower min range = 3
ram speed without advanced siege logistics = 2
ram speed with advanced siege logistics = 3
ram range = 1

turns needed for deployed lv1 ram at 8 range to attack cannon tower without advanced siege logistics = ceil(7/2) = 4
lv1 ram wins by reaching range 2 of cannon tower in 3 movements after taking 2 hits

turns needed for deployed lv1 ram at 8 range to attack cannon tower with advanced siege logistics = ceil(7/3) = 3
lv1 ram wins by reaching range 2 of cannon tower in 2 movements after taking 1 hit

turns needed for deployed lv2 ram at 8 range to attack cannon tower without advanced siege logistics = ceil(7/2) = 4
lv2 ram wins by reaching range 2 of cannon tower in 3 movements after taking 2 hits

...and that's not mentioning you can get them packed to 8 range then move +4 or +5 tiles and deploy, taking only a single hit afterwards

Conclusion: cannon towers by themselves currently stand no chance against any rams before hoop-and-stave. The defending player would have to either use terrain or other buildings to make the ram go through a longer path, or defend it with some more units/towers for it to survive against them.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

Yeah, I set up a test myself, and I realised I clean forgot about recent réduction in cannon tower range (not being much of a tower user myself). Of course, I could argue that even a peasant or scout dog could block a ram, forcing it to take one more killer hit, but you could then argue what if swordsmen were in the rams. I suppose its a bit daft to suggest a scenario like that in isolation when things are seldom in isolation in play, my example was to suggest that an immediately built cannon tower (let's say by turn 16 for a conservative estimate) is a bit hefty relative to the siege machinery we can reasonably expect to deploy by that time frame.

The salient point in attack Vs defence is that the defender will always be closer to their production than the attacker (not to mention other defences) , so even a test in isolation is not a good reflection of real play.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

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b2198 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:46 pm
Endru1241 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:54 pm Unfortunately those units with gun abilities already use abilityPower for main damage.
Then maybe letting it increase both, and adjust the total damage with bonuses?
You are right.
Damage in the effect affecting can be less than 1, so that final damage would be literally percentage of attack or abilityPower.
I didn't think about it.
Endru1241 wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:54 pm Interesting idea.
I am a little worried about increasing unit spam then though.
Wouldn't be an issue if the cooldown is something like 4 or 5 turns, because if people spammed these to get more uses of the ability, they would effectively cut their unit production rate by almost 3/4 or 4/5, since advancement centers themselves don't (and I think won't) produce battle-oriented units. So doing that would give you techs very fast, but with almost no units, and after that you'd be probably outnumbered to death.
I meant it like:
If you as a player already build upgraded advancement center it'd be a waste to remove it until it's totally useless.
But if you build advancement center (and on most maps you will) it would be advantageous in long term to upgrade it on the start.
Unless bonuses of upgrade wouldn't cut it with upgrade cost on average lifetime of advancements center.
So in a way if implemented correctly you'd be forced to deal with additional unit every few turns to stay competitive.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

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Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:08 am I meant it like:
If you as a player already build upgraded advancement center it'd be a waste to remove it until it's totally useless.
But if you build advancement center (and on most maps you will) it would be advantageous in long term to upgrade it on the start.
Unless you have some important techs to make early on (like writing for example) that, depending on the map size and player count, would be really bad to postergate like that, and considering that it would only be usable on upgraded factories (maybe even excluding advancement center itself? So that additional turns are required to be spent on other factories), high castles and monasteries, and that it's a small boost that would need some time to pay for itself, I think it wouldn't really be mandatory to get it as early as possible, just a matter of calculated risks.
Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:08 am Unless bonuses of upgrade wouldn't cut it with upgrade cost on average lifetime of advancements center.
I don't think it needs to reach that point to be balanced, since the player would be losing turns before the breaking even point, so how early it should be done would depend mostly on two factors:
  1. How long you expect that match to become
  2. How risky it is to start doing it in the current turn
Last edited by Endru1241 on Fri Feb 04, 2022 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Moved off-topic part of text to other topic as a quote
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

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b2198 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:42 am
Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:08 am I meant it like:
If you as a player already build upgraded advancement center it'd be a waste to remove it until it's totally useless.
But if you build advancement center (and on most maps you will) it would be advantageous in long term to upgrade it on the start.
Unless you have some important techs to make early on (like writing for example) that, depending on the map size and player count, would be really bad to postergate like that, and considering that it would only be usable on upgraded factories (maybe even excluding advancement center itself? So that additional turns are required to be spent on other factories), high castles and monasteries, and that it's a small boost that would need some time to pay for itself, I think it wouldn't really be mandatory to get it as early as possible, just a matter of calculated risks.
Endru1241 wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 6:08 am Unless bonuses of upgrade wouldn't cut it with upgrade cost on average lifetime of advancements center.
I don't think it needs to reach that point to be balanced, since the player would be losing turns before the breaking even point, so how early it should be done would depend mostly on two factors:
  1. How long you expect that match to become
  2. How risky it is to start doing it in the current turn
That is exactly what I was writing about.
Depending on the exact numbers it would end like one of the situations:
- It's mandatory to be used to not loose important advantage.
- It's too weak to waste turns on it unless very long game is anticipated and position is as safe as it can be.
- It's a little more balanced and clearly advantageous on long usage, gives some bonuses on medium number of turns and doesn't cut it even if too short.

So what is most important here is breaking point.
E.g. for 3 turns upgrade of advancements center and summoning unit giving -1 production time with a cooldown of 5, that can only target other upgraded factories (apart of advancements center) , then it would be 30 turns (SUM(UpgradeTimes) / production turns decrease * cooldown). Not counting advantages of quicker tech.
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Handgonneer Enhance?

Post by Aral_Yaren »

With several updates previously, Handgonneer & co's and even pistol ability units alike become less (and less) interesting due to gunpowder unit rebalance, which is very bright itself, however it hurts them (as E. Hungarian Hussar user I feel for them the most). Sadly even Handgonneer aren't viable anymore to deal with Guardian rushes after gunpowder era due to other unit's accessibilities that enables to field before gunpowder era and greater usefulness plus combo, even M. Slinger + Herbalist stand firm in such situation.

So are there already plans to enhance these units? Perhaps increasing attack and range via techs, like archer smithings? If yes, when it'd be implemented?

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Re: Handgonneer Enhance?

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

There is this topic
http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic. ... 81#p133770
that slightly overlaps with what you suggest here.

Ironically, as someone who hasn't really enjoyed gunpowder units being in this game, I find myself recently wishing that they were more effective in their roles (in particular anti armour capabilities) but only after more tech has been researched.
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

Post by phoenixffyrnig »

Possibility of making the AE bonus dam ignore armour upon research of aforementioned tech (or even a cheap separate tech) to reflect penetrative power of improved bullets
Interesting idea to move added armor ignoring damage to tech, but it has one huge limitation.
It would be hard to copy it to ability.
Are all firearm abilities pistol shot? And are all pistol shots abilities? If so, would this distinction between longarm and shortarm, both ingame and in the practicalities of real life, give enough elbow room to approximately accommodate something like this? Simplistically, longarm action tech could provide extra armour piercing, separate shortarm ability tech merely boosts power?

Were next generation pistols noticeably better at armour piercing compared to their antecedents relative to next gen muskets?
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Re: Handgonneer Enhance?

Post by DreJaDe »

Yeah. I really want an enhance to the unit as they became way to useless with the update.

Maybe we can make them lose their miss chance and have a minus 1 range.

And if, archers can have +1 range, I think this should also be applicable to gunners. The techs I mean.

For the Japanese, we can have the simultaneous fire which make them have 2 turn shots. Not sure if this is true but we can liberties right?
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Re: Handgonneer Enhance?

Post by Aral_Yaren »

Ah, could be merged then.

As for it, I see that Handgonneer & co's don't need any nerf attempt again (they have family to feed and sustain!), rather give them new tech enhancements.

As for Tanegashima 2 action, that could be good as they have only a puny 5 range, yet their attack may be downed to trade (not so big deal as Daimyõ can boost them).
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Endru1241
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Re: Gunpowder rejig

Post by Endru1241 »

Merged.
Allso, current plan:
- Changing current guns armor ignoring damage to be % of attack (60%? - I have to check all units, but best would be to give 4, then 5 damage ignoring armor after techs).
- Corned gunpowder tech, which is gonna give +1 power (or +2 should be better along with -1 initial decrease for gunners) and affect cannons too (image is ready) + extension (1 turn tech) affecting ability (equal number will be substracted from initial cannonball using units)
- Unnamed yet tech to remove miss chance, which will be requirement for pistol shot (probably matchlock)
- Unnamed yet tech to increase range +1 and extension affecting ability (maybe just longer barrels)
- Unnamed yet tech requiring Field ballistics that would affect cannon ability range (and cannonball initial range decrease)

Pistol shot because of technical limitations will remain with constant 4 damage apart of regular armor reduced damage if test would show problems with similar reliance on abilityPower.
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