Herbalist poison stacking

[godOfKings]

I think rather the speed and power debuff of herbalist poison is the one that is actually op and shouldn’t stack, just may b -1 speed and -2 power only for the duration of the poison, no matter how much poison is stacked

[b2198]

I agree, stacking those debuffs is currently too strong (so strong in fact that currently half of my strategy is based on that). But I feel like just making them not stack anymore would be a too big nerf, leaving that strat almost useless.

Imo a better alternative would be what was discussed in the Buffers Rework topic: slightly increasing damage of all 3 poisons herbalists give, but making it so that having the weapon effect for one of them removes the weapon effect for the others, so that a unit can only apply one type at a time when attacking. Doing it like this would make the overall damage of poison strats be lowered significantly, would require a more tactical decision on which poison to apply, and would cut in about half the amount of poison debuff stacking there is currently.

[Endru1241]

Making poison not possible to be applied on double action archers would actually reduce it in half.
Literally.

Or by two thirds if we talk about ultimate target for those buffs.

By making one single change only - limiting herbalist buffs to slavic only poison stacking suddenly looses all meaning.
Only 2x on melee attacks and only when buffed by other effect too.
Barely any longer range archers.

Problem disappears.

[b2198]

Problem disappears.

...Along with any mounted archer strat that works against experienced players, since cavalry missiles wipe out armies of archers at once, and the only ways to prevent that are:

• You put the archers in a building, only useful for defending, but then what's the point of making mounted archers? They have less range in general and are costlier, but have more mobility and hp than foot archers, if you're not using that mobility and hp, you'd be better off using foot archers instead.
• You put the archers in a siege tower/mantlet. Not (and shouldn't be) possible for mounted archers.
• You outrange them with slowing poison stacking. Wouldn't be possible anymore, and cavalry missiles (even if you take out wagons from the equation) outrange everything in the game unless there's a choke point preventing that.
• You reduce their damage to a point where they can't wipe your archers from the map in a single turn anymore. This isn't common to be done even now, because of how many attack buffs cavalry get, you'd need more than 7 stacks of weakening poison to stop a cavalry from triple-action-shoting your mounted archers, after this change it wouldn't even be a possibility anymore.
• You instakill them back before they can instakill you, which is what I usually do with 18 minimum damage against flesh and blood yabusames. Wouldn't, and I also argue here that also shouldn't be possible anymore, because that is exactly the main problem with buff stacking currently, instakillings everywhere.
• ...You hope they don't have a bard/druid/wagon, which is more likely against newer players, but very rare against more experienced ones.

There's also the problem of lancers, but I don't have time right now to finish the calculations for the anti-mounted topic, so I'll leave that for later...

Also triple action axe throwers missiles with minimum 30 damage against flesh and blood are a thing, and only cost 2 turns (new axe thrower is not really needed if you can attack 3 times, applying all 3 poisons at the same time for a total of 27 damage, -6 damage debuff and -3 speed debuff. And they wouldn't be affected at all by just making the poisons culture-specific.

Instead, what I think would work better is to make the double action buff culture-specific, increase damage of all poisons by 1, and make their weapon effects (not the actual poison effects) cancel out each other. This would reduce yabusame's minimum damage with poison from 18 to 13 if they have the weakening poison, or 10 if they have the slowing poison, and would reduce minimum damage of triple action axe thrower with standard poison from 30 to 16, and would remove triple action for most of the other units in the game (maybe with another change to bards later on also removing double action for units that aren't culture-specific?).

[Endru1241]

Most of these are related to buff stacking.
And what I mean of making it culture specific is making all at once culture specific.
All buffs of bard, herbalist and possibly to blacksmith (could buff all he can right now with the exception of Nordic, Slavic, Celtic, Japanese, with more exclusions as more cultures get buffers).

While mounted archers and mongol archers fit perfectly to have poison arrows - it could be achieved by adding buffer specific to steppe culture, having that.
Or maybe moving one of the poisons from herbalist.
And horse archers easily can have this category added.
For yabusame it would be too much.
With only cultural buffs he can go to 10 attack with blacksmith, morale, bushido and tell fortune.

Additionally cavalry missile will be limited to buffers (and only culture specific) or enemy having posthouse build somewhere close, according to my ideas on removing mounted units wagon access.
If posthouse would only give movement buff inside, then stacking it with move geass becomes impossible and with battle song - harder.

[b2198]

Most of these are related to buff stacking.
And what I mean of making it culture specific is making all at once culture specific.
All buffs of bard, herbalist and possibly to blacksmith (could buff all he can right now with the exception of Nordic, Slavic, Celtic, Japanese, with more exclusions as more cultures get buffers).

Hm, yeah, that could probably work.

What about axe throwers though? Axe Thrower is nordic, so wouldn't be able to use them, but Northern Axe Thrower would still be able to have 2 actions + all 3 poisons, for a minimum of 20 damage + -4 damage debuff + -2 speed debuff.
Maybe this

Or maybe moving one of the poisons from herbalist.

would solve it? Moving standard poison would make it 12 damage + -4 damage debuff + -2 speed debuff, moving weakening poison, 14 damage + -2 speed debuff, and moving slowing poison 16 damage + -4 damage debuff. Not sure if that's enough for them.

While mounted archers and mongol archers fit perfectly to have poison arrows - it could be achieved by adding buffer specific to steppe culture, having that.

And horse archers easily can have this category added.

Hm, that seems like a good idea.

For yabusame it would be too much.
With only cultural buffs he can go to 10 attack with blacksmith, morale, bushido and tell fortune.

Yeah, I agree, in this scenario, it would be better to leave them without poison.

Additionally cavalry missile will be limited to buffers (and only culture specific) or enemy having posthouse build somewhere close, according to my ideas on removing mounted units wagon access.
If posthouse would only give movement buff inside, then stacking it with move geass becomes impossible and with battle song - harder.

Yeah, with wagons not accessible for mounted units anymore and bard/druid/herbalist being limited to culture I think this would effectively cut down the cavalry missile issue, leaving it still possible to be done, but requiring the player to actually have to set it up beforehand, with the right units and right positioning, so I think that solves basically all my worries about that.

[Endru1241]

I was thinking to move weakening poison to steppe.
And normal Poisoned weapon could just have simple condition added "except throwing".

[b2198]

And normal Poisoned weapon could just have simple condition added "except throwing".

That could work for sure.

[godOfKings]

Isnt my version simpler, keem the damage as stacking, it doesnt matter how much poison is stacked, they will always deal full stack dmg

The only thing that will not stack is the speed and power debuff, just -1 speed and -2 power the lowest stat can b reduced to by poison only (since they r separate effects from the damage effect, i think they can b made non stackable

[b2198]

Isnt my version simpler, keem the damage as stacking, it doesnt matter how much poison is stacked, they will always deal full stack dmg

The only thing that will not stack is the speed and power debuff, just -1 speed and -2 power the lowest stat can b reduced to by poison only (since they r separate effects from the damage effect, i think they can b made non stackable

But I feel like just making them not stack anymore would be a too big nerf, leaving that strat almost useless.

What I meant here was that this nerf in isolation would basically make these researches/skills for herbalist very weak unless you're going for the ranged instakill combo of them with yabusames or axe throwers.

Also that would only help with this particular case of buff stacking, leaving the others still too strong. And it would also not deal with how much damage you can deal with a single unit in a single turn through poison and action buffs, which is very excessive right now imho.

[godOfKings]

so u mean that 1 unit stuck with -5 speed and -10 power, unable to escape and just waiting for death, is balanced? how many spells are there that actually reduce dmg and speed? plus the poison is still stacking and dealing dmg besides debuff so even if debuff doesnt stack its still worth the research turn cost, we can reduce tech cost if needed, but stacking negative power and especially speed needs to go

for action buffs i already said in support balance topic limit action buff spells to culture units only, and make sure the units of that particular culture dont have more than 1 action so they will all have max 2 actions from the spells

if in the future poison is really split between cultures, japanese ninja should also have something related to poison

as for one unit having multiple weapon stacks, i guess b2198 idea is indeed better that any unit can only use 1 type of poison at a time and not all

[phoenixffyrnig]

Hmm, related to this topic, after a discussion about Herbalist's herb protection ability, it turns out none of us knew exactly how it worked so I did a test. It turns out it doesn't work - or at least, not in any meaningful way.

When poison attacks are dealt to a unit with herbal protection, although the effects of the poison are removed upon players turn, the hp minus of the poisons apply before any healing. Given the heal rate is a rather feeble +2 (vs however many poisons have been stacked) this doesn't really apply the "lasting protection against poisons" the description implies. Indeed, there is every chance the unit with poison protection will be killed before the protection has applied. Is there any way of reversing the order here, having the heal applied before the poison does its damage? Or if not, increasing the heal rate to something where this ability is actually of use?

[b2198]

so u mean that 1 unit stuck with -5 speed and -10 power, unable to escape and just waiting for death, is balanced? how many spells are there that actually reduce dmg and speed? plus the poison is still stacking and dealing dmg besides debuff so even if debuff doesnt stack its still worth the research turn cost, we can reduce tech cost if needed, but stacking negative power and especially speed needs to go

Well, if Endru's changes are implemented, for a unit to have been debuffed to -5 speed and -10 power you would need:

• A herbalist
• The steppes buffer
• Both poison researches, done in different buildings
• At least 1 slavic unit
• At least 1 steppes unit
• To hit that enemy 5 times with the buffed slavic unit(s)
• To hit that enemy 5 times with the buffed steppes unit(s)

And at that point if the enemy isn't already dead at that point from taking 10 attacks + 25 poison damage total, then yeah, I think that's balanced.

Also stacking speed debuff can be simply healed for your unit to be able to move normally again.

for action buffs i already said in support balance topic limit action buff spells to culture units only, and make sure the units of that particular culture dont have more than 1 action so they will all have max 2 actions from the spells

Yeah, that's the plan, I think.

as for one unit having multiple weapon stacks, i guess b2198 idea is indeed better that any unit can only use 1 type of poison at a time and not all

That would lose a lot its relevance if weakening poison is moved to steppes buffer and units.

Hmm, related to this topic, after a discussion about Herbalist's herb protection ability, it turns out none of us knew exactly how it worked so I did a test. It turns out it doesn't work - or at least, not in any meaningful way.

When poison attacks are dealt to a unit with herbal protection, although the effects of the poison are removed upon players turn, the hp minus of the poisons apply before any healing. Given the heal rate is a rather feeble +2 (vs however many poisons have been stacked) this doesn't really apply the "lasting protection against poisons" the description implies. Indeed, there is every chance the unit with poison protection will be killed before the protection has applied. Is there any way of reversing the order here, having the heal applied before the poison does its damage? Or if not, increasing the heal rate to something where this ability is actually of use?

afaik the heal is always applied, even if the poison damage would kill the unit by itself, that has messed my poison calculations a lot of times, because a 4 hp unit with normal poison and herb protection, in any order, will have 2 hp at the start of its turn.

Also I don't think it would be good for it to negate the poison damage entirely, because that would basically invalidate the whole strat, along with its research time, by just having herbalists of your own protecting all your units.

[phoenixffyrnig]

afaik the heal is always applied, even if the poison damage would kill the unit by itself

I've just got a negative on that in a test... I did only try green poison though. Will look at the others

Also I don't think it would be good for it to negate the poison damage entirely, because that would basically invalidate the whole strat, along with its research time, by just having herbalists of your own protecting all your units.

In practice, no, I don't think so. Obviously it requires your opp to make Herbalists, ie to have a Veche and the time, cost wise you will always be able to send out more poison attacks than can be defended against due to cheaper than 5 turn missile units and multi actions. What this would do would be to allow a unit or two to approach a TC or siege tower with poison missile in it. And in principle this is rather similar to how its quite possible later on in the game to easily pump up zero mental resistance to over 100. I wouldn't necessarily say it nullifies the conversion strat, because similarly, you can't protect everything - you'd have to pick and choose - but it would give a chance to counter that strat.

But I do get your point - rather than completely removing all effects there should probably be some debuff to reflect the fact that this poor bugger has a whole load of toxins running wild in his system. I dunno man, it's your strat, you know how it should work better than me, but I was thinking it is better to provide a way of countering that strat rather than (essentially) removing it's use from the game.

[b2198]

I've just got a negative on that in a test... I did only try green poison though. Will look at the others

It is, but if the healing isn't enough to save the unit from death it will die regardless. Just meant that in a case where, for example, the enemy unit has 4 hp and has both herb protection and standard poison applied to it, it will survive with 2 hp left at the start of its turn.

In practice, no, I don't think so. Obviously it requires your opp to make Herbalists, ie to have a Veche and the time, cost wise you will always be able to send out more poison attacks than can be defended against due to cheaper than 5 turn missile units and multi actions. What this would do would be to allow a unit or two to approach a TC or siege tower with poison missile in it. And in principle this is rather similar to how its quite possible later on in the game to easily pump up zero mental resistance to over 100. I wouldn't necessarily say it nullifies the conversion strat, because similarly, you can't protect everything - you'd have to pick and choose - but it would give a chance to counter that strat.

Well, but differently than herb protection negating the entire poison damage, units with more than 100% mental resistance can still be converted after enough attempts. Maybe something that could work better would be to block a certain amount of poison stacks, or reducing damage of each poison applied either by a fixed amount or by a %, but I don't think any of those are possible in the engine right now...

I dunno man, it's your strat, you know how it should work better than me, but I was thinking it is better to provide a way of countering that strat rather than (essentially) removing it's use from the game.

Yeah, I agree, but I feel like protecting against its entire effect with a simple buff is too much of a counter, maybe some not-as-strong form of countering it could exist. Also not really "my strat", as using them is the main point of those researches existing, and I've seen more people with whom I had never played with or against before use it too.

[Endru1241]

One thing about herb protection was not mentioned.
There is no way to give immunity to some effect in current engine.
Removing poison each turn is the best that can be done.

And I honestly have no idea what is the order in which repeated effects are applied.

As for increasing hp healed by each turn of herbal protection - that is not good as it would make the effect outperform heal in the long term and that is not the point of ability.

[Endru1241]

And one very important point.
Any ideas for ability to fill after removing weakening poison weapon?

[b2198]

Maybe none? She already had the highest amount of abilities in a unit, tied with druid if I'm not mistaken, so decreasing from 7 to 6 abilities seems fine for me.

[godOfKings]

Can have a speed boosting spell perhaps, speed herb, herbs that boost adrenaline and stamina for a short duration, causing the person to run faster (not recommended if bard speed boost spell is general purpose, not culture specific)

[makazuwr32]

And I honestly have no idea what is the order in which repeated effects are applied.

1. Healing
2. Damaging
3. Everything else

Did not test rest of possible repeatable effects so point 3. But for first 2 i can be sure since trolls with burning and 1 hp will survive because regen is applied before damage.

[Endru1241]

And I honestly have no idea what is the order in which repeated effects are applied.

1. Healing
2. Damaging
3. Everything else

Did not test rest of possible repeatable effects so point 3. But for first 2 i can be sure since trolls with burning and 1 hp will survive because regen is applied before damage.

Thanks for this valuable info.

Can have a speed boosting spell perhaps, speed herb, herbs that boost adrenaline and stamina for a short duration, causing the person to run faster (not recommended if bard speed boost spell is general purpose, not culture specific)

Speed boost is quite good (mainly tactically), but I thought to put some more emphasis on rather defensive combat style of slavs.
Southern Slavs raided with light cavalry, while keeping naturally good defensive positions with main army.
Western Slavs kept to their defences, waiting to strike through with heaviest cavalry in good time.
Eastern Slavs mainly used infantry, but were also defensive in regards of settlements.
Some among southern and river people from western was using poison and traps.
Poles and Czechs quickly started mimicking many tactics of german empire.
Novigrod or Moscovia - battle tactics similar to that of Nords.
Some slavs also used unconventional manoeuvrers and deceit.
Many different things can be said, most conflicting, because they were huge group which split on very different terrains, but there is one common detail - rather defensive tactics.

[b2198]

Speed boost is quite good (mainly tactically), but I thought to put some more emphasis on rather defensive combat style of slavs.
Southern Slavs raided with light cavalry, while keeping naturally good defensive positions with main army.
Western Slavs kept to their defences, waiting to strike through with heaviest cavalry in good time.
Eastern Slavs mainly used infantry, but were also defensive in regards of settlements.
Some among southern and river people from western was using poison and traps.
Poles and Czechs quickly started mimicking many tactics of german empire.
Novigrod or Moscovia - battle tactics similar to that of Nords.
Some slavs also used unconventional manoeuvrers and deceit.
Many different things can be said, most conflicting, because they were huge group which split on very different terrains, but there is one common detail - rather defensive tactics.

Hm, maybe then something building-oriented? Not sure if that's possible, but maybe an ability that would activate when the unit enters a building (or immediately, if already inside one), giving it some stat increase for some turns or imediate healing on activation?

[Endru1241]

Speed boost is quite good (mainly tactically), but I thought to put some more emphasis on rather defensive combat style of slavs.
Southern Slavs raided with light cavalry, while keeping naturally good defensive positions with main army.
Western Slavs kept to their defences, waiting to strike through with heaviest cavalry in good time.
Eastern Slavs mainly used infantry, but were also defensive in regards of settlements.
Some among southern and river people from western was using poison and traps.
Poles and Czechs quickly started mimicking many tactics of german empire.
Novigrod or Moscovia - battle tactics similar to that of Nords.
Some slavs also used unconventional manoeuvrers and deceit.
Many different things can be said, most conflicting, because they were huge group which split on very different terrains, but there is one common detail - rather defensive tactics.

Hm, maybe then something building-oriented? Not sure if that's possible, but maybe an ability that would activate when the unit enters a building (or immediately, if already inside one), giving it some stat increase for some turns or imediate healing on activation?

There are no triggers like that.
And going to to cast aura on unit, that is giving aura to buildings, that gives desired effect is probably too complicated.
Many players must be already frowning upon mask of oni.

So to decrease overcomplication anything similar would need to be cast on building.
Well it is some idea - e.g. building buff, that grants/increases healing rate.

[makazuwr32]

I'd say slavs may have some defencive aura for their buildings.

[Endru1241]

I'd say slavs may have some defencive aura for their buildings.

Sure.
Veche izba could have defensive aura.

But it doesn't fit anything herbalist would do.

[b2198]

Come to think about it in the added changes to 1.157, wouldn't it make more sense to move slowing poison instead? Since slavs are more melee focused, weakening would be more useful to them, so that they can reduce damage taken in melee range, and steppe is more mounted archer focused, so slowing would be more useful to them so that they can outrun enemies while firing.

[Endru1241]

That was my exact concern.

Slavs currently don't have any speed boosts and there is a possibility they won't.
With defensive in mind - they don't have to.
And having enemies slowed can achieve something similar, but without advantage to deployment speed.

On the other hand steppe already has speed boost and employs quite cheap fast mounted units.
Those are capable of outmanoeuvring enemies since the very start.
With slowing poison they could be too good - enemy without heal (and many heal sources are not very mobile or very easy to be killed with arrows) wouldn't stand any chance being locked in place instead of outmanoeuvred.

[b2198]

Hm, fair points, got it.