Thought about Leaders on TC

[Aral_Yaren]

1. It's been dicussed that leaders of faction are to be trained additionally in TC. Currently I noticed Voivode and Celtic Chieftain are on the list and ready to train eventhough their respective bases aren't built. Is this true that currently we don't have to build the respective base to train leaders?

2. Somehow I don't see Japanese leader (Daimyo) on TC list. Even the newcomers Slavic has Voivode and Bolyar on the list (both are leaders, each having morale aura, really). Better choose one to maintain "one faction one leader" and keep morale aura to the leader, while other get enhancement a little to compensate.

3. Another take is Roman ad contra Hellen. Long considered that Centurion is the leader of Roman in AoS, however who is that of Hellenic? As I haven't found any Hellenic unit who is entitled leader so far (is it Cataphract? Has he morale aura now? Haven't check it yet, need confirmation).

4. The same account for Aztec. First appreciate for the "slightly" hp raise for some of their unit, very good! If counting to stats, Jaguar Warrior is superior to the rest of them. Has he been entitled leader? If so, morale aura should be added for him to balance this leaders attribute (or is it already?).

[b2198]

1. It's been dicussed that leaders of faction are to be trained additionally in TC. Currently I noticed Voivode and Celtic Chieftain are on the list and ready to train eventhough their respective bases aren't built. Is this true that currently we don't have to build the respective base to train leaders?

Probably still being worked on, since it would probably also require to lock some other culture-specific units behind having their factories too, for consistency.

2. Somehow I don't see Japanese leader (Daimyo) on TC list.

True, Daimyos should probably be in TC too.

Even the newcomers Slavic has Voivode and Bolyar on the list (both are leaders, each having morale aura, really). Better choose one to maintain "one faction one leader" and keep morale aura to the leader, while other get enhancement a little to compensate.

I agree, also voivode being basically a heavy cavalry version of the lancer with 40 hp is a bit too weak when compared to even heavy lancers imo, since bonuses are higher against heavy cavalry than against medium. Though I find lancers in general to be a bit too strong, but that is for my next wall of text, in regards to anti-mounted in general.

3. Another take is Roman ad contra Hellen. Long considered that Centurion is the leader of Roman in AoS, however who is that of Hellenic? As I haven't found any Hellenic unit who is entitled leader so far (is it Cataphract? Has he morale aura now? Haven't check it yet, need confirmation).

They don't, and I think it would be a bit too much to give them morale aura, as they are already the tankiest non-elephant (and considering assassins exist, even compared to elephants due to being cheaper) mounted units in the game already. But maybe the hellenic could have the proposed companion leader to have a slightly different role as a leader, similar to daimyos not having morale aura, but bushido aura.

4. The same account for Aztec. First appreciate for the "slightly" hp raise for some of their unit, very good! If counting to stats, Jaguar Warrior is superior to the rest of them. Has he been entitled leader? If so, morale aura should be added for him to balance this leaders attribute (or is it already?).

Or maybe some new 6 turns unit for them to serve as a leader, since jaguar warriors are their main heavy infantry.

[Endru1241]

1. It's been dicussed that leaders of faction are to be trained additionally in TC. Currently I noticed Voivode and Celtic Chieftain are on the list and ready to train eventhough their respective bases aren't built. Is this true that currently we don't have to build the respective base to train leaders?

2. Somehow I don't see Japanese leader (Daimyo) on TC list. Even the newcomers Slavic has Voivode and Bolyar on the list (both are leaders, each having morale aura, really). Better choose one to maintain "one faction one leader" and keep morale aura to the leader, while other get enhancement a little to compensate.

3. Another take is Roman ad contra Hellen. Long considered that Centurion is the leader of Roman in AoS, however who is that of Hellenic? As I haven't found any Hellenic unit who is entitled leader so far (is it Cataphract? Has he morale aura now? Haven't check it yet, need confirmation).

4. The same account for Aztec. First appreciate for the "slightly" hp raise for some of their unit, very good! If counting to stats, Jaguar Warrior is superior to the rest of them. Has he been entitled leader? If so, morale aura should be added for him to balance this leaders attribute (or is it already?).

1. Should already be fixed.

2. - Daimyo is a little special as it gives very significant boost to japanese multi action archers. I was thinking about that, but decided to not increase his availability too much.

3. Like b2198 stated hellenic don't have a leader for now and one need to be made.
And cataphract is definitely bad idea.

4. Similarly as 3.

[phoenixffyrnig]

2. - Daimyo is a little special as it gives very significant boost to japanese multi action archers. I was thinking about that, but decided to not increase his availability too much.

Have these multi-action archers been double penalised here? I've been playing quite a bit recently with the Japanese faction, and (as with many things) I am amazed at how overlooked the Bushido aura is, ie I fully respect its power, it is one hell of a boost in the field, but in this instance, the Japanese missile units do have very limiting boni as well, they are the only Japanese archer units, and are only effective against lightly armoured or non shielded units. Obviously a multi attack is modified each time by armour too.

The ashigaru and Samurai cav are much needed and great additions to the Japanese roster, but on the whole a Japanese playthrough is very limited in some ways (nodachi, yabusame and Daimyo being Dojo specific) so to field a viable Japanese army is actually very difficult. With that in mind, could Daimyo be reduced to 6 turn cost if only available in Dojo?

[Endru1241]

It's also hard to kill for a leader with significantly higher armor and some more hp.
Additionally it packs a punch with 15 attack.

So 6 turns - I think only along with nerfing physical stats.

[Aral_Yaren]

I disagree with nerfing - on the other side, as stated above, I would rather suggest to buff Daimyo. Not that much, just +1/1 armor or and affect its heal bonus more (maybe +250%?) due to this limiting exclusiveness Daimyo suffers.

[phoenixffyrnig]

It's also hard to kill for a leader with significantly higher armor and some more hp.
Additionally it packs a punch with 15 attack.

So 6 turns - I think only along with nerfing physical stats.

How about adding nodachi into barracks or TC but requiring Dojo then? I appreciate Daimyo does pack a punch, but is he really worth 3 turns more than Condottiero though? Or 1 turn more than Centurion? My suggestion was more to make feasible a balanced Japanese army than to make Daimyo more readily available, but with just hatamoto and ninja (admittedly another very powerful but underused unit) available in TC we get a rather mismatched Japanese army. But yes, I'm also against a nerf, so if it's a case of one or the other, leave as is imo.

[b2198]

I on the other hand disagree with both nerfing or buffing by a considerable amount, but still think they should be in TCs too with the added restriction of having to build a dojo first to unlock, like for other leaders (and units too? Or is that restriction currently only on leaders?). I don't see them as being too strong stats-wise, maybe could use a -1 attack, -1 p.armor, +2 hp overall slight nerf at most, so that they can be compared to centurion, that costs 6 turns and are about as strong (if not a little weaker due to p. armor) as a heavy knight. In this case, they would cost 7 turns and become just a tiny bit stronger than cavaliers, and also considering the fact that they have only 1 aura, not 2/3 like centurion.

Yeah, if the cost were to be reduced to 6 then its stats should be reduced, but again, I still think they should be in TCs. Centurion also gives very significant (even more in fact) boosts to roman units, and they've been in TCs for a good while now, not being anything close to too strong even in roman-heavy strats, though one might argue that it's not a problem because roman strats are not as good as japanese ones currently, but then.

[b2198]

Also something I just noticed, about Crusade Leader. Shouldn't they require either priory or monastery to be trained? Right now it seems that you must have a priory to train them, even though the main research that makes them useful for most of the game is monastery exclusive.

[Endru1241]

Also something I just noticed, about Crusade Leader. Shouldn't they require either priory or monastery to be trained? Right now it seems that you must have a priory to train them, even though the main research that makes them useful for most of the game is monastery exclusive.

They require priory.

But it's true, that Hire Crusader tech should be in priory.

I disagree with nerfing - on the other side, as stated above, I would rather suggest to buff Daimyo. Not that much, just +1/1 armor or and affect its heal bonus more (maybe +250%?) due to this limiting exclusiveness Daimyo suffers.

Such huge healing bonus would easily make him totally unkillable on distance. Simple monk would heal it for 28 hp.

It's also hard to kill for a leader with significantly higher armor and some more hp.
Additionally it packs a punch with 15 attack.

So 6 turns - I think only along with nerfing physical stats.

How about adding nodachi into barracks or TC but requiring Dojo then? I appreciate Daimyo does pack a punch, but is he really worth 3 turns more than Condottiero though? Or 1 turn more than Centurion? My suggestion was more to make feasible a balanced Japanese army than to make Daimyo more readily available, but with just hatamoto and ninja (admittedly another very powerful but underused unit) available in TC we get a rather mismatched Japanese army. But yes, I'm also against a nerf, so if it's a case of one or the other, leave as is imo.

Like mentioned many times - Condotierro has little nerf being applied on the start, that makes it even - leaving.
And along with centurion it has significantly weaker stats, than Daimyo.
Nodachi in barracks - could be, I think.

I on the other hand disagree with both nerfing or buffing by a considerable amount, but still think they should be in TCs too with the added restriction of having to build a dojo first to unlock, like for other leaders (and units too? Or is that restriction currently only on leaders?). I don't see them as being too strong stats-wise, maybe could use a -1 attack, -1 p.armor, +2 hp overall slight nerf at most, so that they can be compared to centurion, that costs 6 turns and are about as strong (if not a little weaker due to p. armor) as a heavy knight. In this case, they would cost 7 turns and become just a tiny bit stronger than cavaliers, and also considering the fact that they have only 1 aura, not 2/3 like centurion.

Yeah, if the cost were to be reduced to 6 then its stats should be reduced, but again, I still think they should be in TCs. Centurion also gives very significant (even more in fact) boosts to roman units, and they've been in TCs for a good while now, not being anything close to too strong even in roman-heavy strats, though one might argue that it's not a problem because roman strats are not as good as japanese ones currently, but then.

Centurion is the lifeline of roman units.
It's the base to make them barely competitive.
Plus centurion is weaker than knight after blacksmith.

[b2198]

Centurion is the lifeline of roman units.
It's the base to make them barely competitive.
Plus centurion is weaker than knight after blacksmith.

Oh, right, I keep forgetting romans don't get blacksmith upgrades. Then yeah, maybe nerfing daimyo's stats to be around those of heavy knights, reducing its cost to 6 turns and adding it to TCs could work?

[Endru1241]

Centurion is the lifeline of roman units.
It's the base to make them barely competitive.
Plus centurion is weaker than knight after blacksmith.

Oh, right, I keep forgetting romans don't get blacksmith upgrades. Then yeah, maybe nerfing daimyo's stats to be around those of heavy knights, reducing its cost to 6 turns and adding it to TCs could work?

Why to Heavy Knight ?
If it were to be 6 turn tc unit, then something like condotierro, centurion or crusade leader.

[b2198]

Oh, right, I keep forgetting romans don't get blacksmith upgrades. Then yeah, maybe nerfing daimyo's stats to be around those of heavy knights, reducing its cost to 6 turns and adding it to TCs could work?

Why to Heavy Knight ?
If it were to be 6 turn tc unit, then something like condotierro, centurion or crusade leader.

Well, centurion is also about as strong as a heavy knight (without blacksmith upgrades), and both condotiero and crusade leader have spawning abilities, which daimyos don't, so maybe something like:
hp: 38
attack: 12
armor: 3/1
could work? being slightly worse than heavy knights, and slightly stronger than crusade leader and condotiero

[Endru1241]

Only 1 p.armor along with this hp would allow some option to eliminate this unit from distance, so I think it would be balanced.
The question is - is such change really needed/welcomed.

[DreJaDe]

What about following the Japanese style also

HP: 30-32
Atk: 9-10
Actions: 2
M. Arm: 3
P. Arm: 4

I think this is okay since Japanese armor isn't known for its strength. Compared to centurion also, this unit doesn't give high morale which I think balances it's atk damage and action count. I raised the P. Armor though since I want to give it another advantage at least and the main purpose of Jap armor many times if for anti range.

For me though, I think the old stats it's okay.
It's should also be available in TC which I think makes it more fine unlike the cost of 8 turns back then

[Endru1241]

What about following the Japanese style also

HP: 30-32
Atk: 9-10
Actions: 2
M. Arm: 3
P. Arm: 4

I think this is okay since Japanese armor isn't known for its strength. Compared to centurion also, this unit doesn't give high morale which I think balances it's atk damage and action count. I raised the P. Armor though since I want to give it another advantage at least and the main purpose of Jap armor many times if for anti range.

For me though, I think the old stats it's okay.
It's should also be available in TC which I think makes it more fine unlike the cost of 8 turns back then

It would definitely made it more fine than 8 turn unit in isolated factory to be 6 turn TC unit having better armor (3/4 is better, than 4/3 for cavalry), 30% lower hp, better overall attack and better tactical capability. It's vastly superior.

Compared to earlier proposition of 40 hp 3/1 armors - the decrease in hp doesn't account even in the slightest for additional action and increase in p.armor.
4 p.armor makes it almost immune to basic archers on the early game.
Still 30hp with 5p.armor is better than 40hp 2 p.armor on mid game (assuming +1 blacksmith).
Even late game 6 p.armor is still not low compared to other leaders 3.

Such stats would be a stretch for TC unit if they wouldn't come with any aura (taking into account the fact, that it can be buffed by bushido).

[phoenixffyrnig]

The question is - is such change really needed/welcomed

I'd rather something that was balanced towards either
Cost 7 and available in TC or
Cost 6 but only from Dojo.

Making it cost 6 and TC available obviously necessitates hefty nerfing, which kinda negates Daimyos status as first amongst equals, strongest leader. I don't feel the need to make all leaders more equal in stats, detracts from flavour.

[DreJaDe]

It would definitely made it more fine than 8 turn unit in isolated factory to be 6 turn TC unit having better armor (3/4 is better, than 4/3 for cavalry), 30% lower hp, better overall attack and better tactical capability. It's vastly superior.

I meant the 7 turn. The current one. Not the one I'm suggesting.

Compared to earlier proposition of 40 hp 3/1 armors - the decrease in hp doesn't account even in the slightest for additional action and increase in p.armor.
4 p.armor makes it almost immune to basic archers on the early game.
Still 30hp with 5p.armor is better than 40hp 2 p.armor on mid game (assuming +1 blacksmith).
Even late game 6 p.armor is still not low compared to other leaders 3.

Such stats would be a stretch for TC unit if they wouldn't come with any aura (taking into account the fact, that it can be buffed by bushido).

Yeah, I know this is a stretch when I look at the mounted samurai.

Just trying.

[Endru1241]

For 7 turn in TC:
14 attack, 45 hp, 4/1 armors
or
13 attack, 42 hp, 4/2 armors

Both propositions still keep superiority among leaders.

[phoenixffyrnig]

My vote goes to the first option

[Aral_Yaren]

I vote the second - this time armor matters to keep the nerfed survivability imho.

[DreJaDe]

What's stopping it from having 14 and still 2 p armor?
Seems ok to me

[b2198]

Any of the 2 seem fine for me. The first one seems to make them a little too vulnerable against archers maybe? If I were to choose, I'd go with the second one, and also would be more in line with the other 2 japanese mounted units, which both have 2 p. armor.

[phoenixffyrnig]

I'm heading towards minority opinion here. My choice for the stronger attack lower defence option is for lore/flavour purposes rather than practicalities of the game. As a leader of Samurai with their code of honour, the Daimyo should be more suited to glorious combat in the thick of the action rather than worrying about arrows in the back lines - attack should be his defining feature to my mind.

[godOfKings]

And y is it a problem to keep daimyo as it is and let it b made in tc? I think costing 7 turns itself is the biggest nerf for daimyo, considering there r many cavalry that can reach similar stats but still cost 6 (or 5 for winged hussar)

Even max buffed centurion not only is very tanky but also reach 15 dmg and 6 speed

[b2198]

So... reviving this one due to a lot of things being changed in the state of the game since this was last discussed.

(and also because of this recent post by GoK: https://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13023 and some discussions we had in the group about it)

In the current state of the game, I agree with GoK in that I think daimyo should be available on TCs without changing its stats (although locked by factory), and centurion should be factory-locked. Reason for that that weren't already discussed on this topic are:

• Centurion got stronger since the last comment here due to advanced legion command, reaching stats that are way closer to daimyo than before. (although still weaker)
• The buffer rework happened, and now yumis and yabusames aren't op anymore, and have some real competitors with mongolians and their possible upcoming upgrade and leader, and daimyo is really fundamental to use them properly.

Also something I just noticed, about Crusade Leader. Shouldn't they require either priory or monastery to be trained? Right now it seems that you must have a priory to train them, even though the main research that makes them useful for most of the game is monastery exclusive.

They require priory.

But it's true, that Hire Crusader tech should be in priory.

Also I think this might've been lost in time XD. I still agree with that, since Crusade Leader is clearly the weakest leader in the game in terms of stats, and mostly serves only for recruiting crusaders with salt/mineral carts.

How about adding nodachi into barracks or TC but requiring Dojo then?

This one I also think might've been lost in time, and nodachi are still weak overall and way underused due to only being available in dojo, but I'm not sure if this is the place to discuss it or if I should create another topic for that.

[b2198]

And y is it a problem to keep daimyo as it is and let it b made in tc? I think costing 7 turns itself is the biggest nerf for daimyo, considering there r many cavalry that can reach similar stats but still cost 6 (or 5 for winged hussar)

Even max buffed centurion not only is very tanky but also reach 15 dmg and 6 speed

...And GoK got here before me, forget the part in my above post about reviving this topic XD

[godOfKings]

As for nodachi, i think it can have zweihander bonus line instead, no need to b 100% accurate to history for the sake of a fun and balanced gameplay

May b not fully copy zweihander, just the bonus on buildings and siege is also good enough

[Endru1241]

In the upcoming dev all leaders (including Daimyo) should be available in TC.
Daimyo was nerfed as disscussed, but also added high morale.
All leaders have high morale now.
Centurion requires Roman Garrison.

Btw. nodachi is recruitable in barracks too.

[godOfKings]

What is exact stat now?
Would daimyo turn cost b 6 turn too?

And would nodachi get bonus against buildings or only stay anti light infantry? The problem is light infantry/cav categories can also b killed with archers and not necessarily need a melee, although they might b useful against rome