tc rooster rework

[Endru1241]

To be honest - I think tc roster needs to be reviewed and changed.
Mainly because I want to decrease the number of options a little.
And in the same time - make buildings similarly needed.

Let me present some details of what could be included and excluded:
- all non-war utility units stays the same (transports, valueables)
- builders stay the same - unique to tc
- at least one of each main category, but as basic as possible
- basic counters for main units
- no main units strong "on it's own", so among those cheap for its category - should need the construction and usage (e.g. research from) of specific factories
- possibly basic units of various cultures, as long as they don't break previous rule

So basically the idea is that any army produced from tc can be overpowered by same cost army, but produced exclusively by (or with support of) other factories, unless not
Of course factories could have filler units, that are only added to increase variety or utility, so not all factory specific units have to be better, but generally factories should allow better army than pure tc.

But I am not sure hastati fits what I want to be prodiced there.
It can be promoted and utilise most of it's strength without any need for roman garrison.

As I found out, that buildings can be used as requirements - maybe hastati will just require at least 1 build roman garrison?

[DreJaDe]

- no main units strong "on it's own", so among those cheap for its category - should need the construction and usage (e.g. research from) of specific factories
- possibly basic units of various cultures, as long as they don't break previous rule

So basically, the 2 turn units would stay in the tc? Not sure I understand.

That's actually a good idea.

[Endru1241]

Not necessarily 2 turn.
Knights are also considered basic, core.

Because among heavy cavalry knights are main representative.

The main point here is what not to put - I want to leave some units unique to specific factories, some requiring a tech or construction of factory and only bare minimum normally in tc from the start.

[makazuwr32]

- builders stay the same - unique to tc

I'd say they might be also available in blacksmith and advancement center.

[DreJaDe]

That's definitely a no.

Worker supremacy strats are going to be a thing again if that's the case. I mean, they are kinda still but not as much.

[Endru1241]

Yeah - I also want to limit workers like they are.
And not bring any new builders, upgrades, techs, that would increase mend or mend affect on units.

For blacksmith and advancement center I'd like two support units each- one cheap and one pricy - a lot better, but still not as good per cost as normal ones.

[L4cus]

i see tc rooster rework needs a new topic jeje

[L4cus]

First at all the current list of units/techs aviable in tcs:

UNITS
skirmisher
archer
roman sagittarius*
slinger
longbowman**
hospitaller*
poison archer**
fire archer**
ranger**
genoese crossbowman***
cretan archer***
balearic slinger***
horse archer
skirmisher horseman**
horse crossbowman**
mongolian horseman*
chariot archer
elephant archer**

spearman
pikeman
voulgier*
hospitaller halberdier*
mercenary billman***
strelet*
celtic warrior*
flail soldier**
gaelic fighter*
swordman
maceman**
zweihander**
samurai*
axe thrower*
varangian*
thracian falxman***
shielder
templar*
spartan hoplite*
foot knight**
roman legionary*
roman praetorian*
gallowglass*
jaguar warrior*
enforcer***
mercenary foot knight***
guerrilla
maori warrior*
berserker*
highlander*
banner bearer
net thrower**
battlefield blacksmith*
eagle warrior*
corsair*
ninja*
assassin
spy

light cavalry
knight
chariot
lancer
hussar**
hungarian hussar**
sipahi*
shield knight
elephant**
centurion*
condottiero***

monk*
priest
missionary
bishop*
herbalist
druid*

ballista
ram
catapult
turtle machine

caravel**
galley
trireme
balista ship
catapult ship
cannon ship
mend ship

ornithoper

roman aenator*
drummer
worker
laborer
miner
wagon
rowboat
transport ship
big transport ship
tresurer
peasant
scout dog
flying scout

+easter eggs

TECHS:
fortified town
writing
ballistic
machinery
flying
ambidexterity
town patrol
tight fabric
massonry
area damage
persuasion
boarding effectiveness**
stealing
garrisoned keep
elite scout


* : from a faction
** : not from a faction but not generic either
*** : mercenary

[Endru1241]

Split and merged.

About the list:
Wow it is huge (that's what she said ).
It looks like it really needs some clearing.

And just small information filling - both hussars, herbalist, flailman are gonna be a faction.
Probably the same one, with a little struggle if hungarians should be in slavic culture (magyars came with their cultural elements and language, but most common traditions were kept slavic, just like general population).

Caravel is a counter for boarding ships, so it may need the placement or I'll put cheaper one here (Dromon scout - same bonuses and power, but melee range only).

[Stratego (dev)]

i coulnd not read tru but for AI it must be careful - talk in email please.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Yeah, I'm on-board with this, makes sense and it will add extra depth and importance to choices and planning, and the strats and plays that follow. Obviously though, with TCs making up almost half of output we need to ensure there are enough viable options for various playthroughs or we would slide back to worker dominated plays, spam attacks, or even worse, homogenised armies! And for end game population limit managing I think we definitely need to retain some high cost units. Careful thought required.

Yeah, that list is big. Too big. Let's look at groups...

Leaders - imo should not be on TC roster, better they be faction factory specific, and probably castle too (see castle roster rebalance thread http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic. ... er#p130563). That's two less (Centurion and Condottiero).

Mercs - what to do here? My thoughts lean towards banishing all mercs to their respective factories (with the future possibility of a merc specific factory). That's an obvious clean up.

Elites / Specialists - do they have a place here? Again, I think not. Again, just my opinion, but these would include Ranger, strelet, sipahi, Bishop and most especially, (that favourite unit of all unimaginative strategists) the berserker.

[phoenixffyrnig]

The main point here is what not to put - I want to leave some units unique to specific factories, some requiring a tech or construction of factory and only bare minimum normally in tc from the start.

Yeah, more units locked behind techs like Marian Reforms is a good idea. Requiring construction of factories I like too. Is it possible to level this with unit cost? eg 1 existing Celtic Roundhouse gives access to gaelic fighter and celtic warrior from TC, 2 Roundhouses allow recruitment of Highlander and Gallowglass?

For blacksmith and advancement center I'd like two support units each- one cheap and one pricy - a lot better, but still not as good per cost as normal ones.

Again, interesting ideas. We already have an embryonic suggestion for a squire (http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=11836) that in theory could do well for second blacksmith support unit, pending agreement on its exact role and stats. Do you have anything in mind for AC support units, Endru? Presumably something specific to researches and advancement? Atm all I can think of is something like a scholar or alchemist that can speed up techs with his research or experiments, but this unfortunately is no different in effect to a mine cart.

[DreJaDe]

I want to disagree.

I'm actually in the opinion of Leaders being in the TC. Moving them all to a specific factory would just make them more expensive and just reducing their cost on the factory itself wouldn't really cut it.

Lore wise, a tc is like the main city. Leaders should be able to train in there unlike factories which are like levy or some sort where you gather your main troops from.

(•A fantasy•
Though since there would be a roster change. What if leaders would be like Coolguy though not as limited? There could be like the main city like in AOE where they can just be trained. Then their limit would be based on how many your mega is?)

For the mercenary. I think the writing is enough and the current one can stay. Honestly, their utility will be outdone after some time anyway. Making them more unavailable would just lessen their use. I like the current meta behind them.

Not sure about the elites but I do kinda agree. Don't see much of a problem but I also think there can be a better way for them the current.

[Endru1241]

Requirements is only a list.
So I guess engine only checks if unit is present.
In case of tech, which requirements were designed for - it couldn't be any other way, as tech never disappear and can only be one of each.

Custom lmits are impossible currently.
I made a request for engine change in that regard, but I don't have much hopes, seeing how busy stratego is.

Advancements Center units, that I have in mind are science related buffers or debuffers for units. Or one of them could be wholly or additionally capable of some stealth, anti-stealth, vision or healing.
No production boosts.
Maybe something like alchemist (topic proposition already exists).

[Endru1241]

Back to the topic.

My initial plan is to:
- add Nordic Warlord, Celtic Chieftain and Crusade Leader, but making all leaders require respective factories first
- remove culture specific buffers: Bishop, Druid
- remove some more special units: Berserker, Gallowglass, Gaelic Fighter, Roman Aeanator, Strelet, Sipahi

More generally - most important is this point:

- no main units strong "on it's own", so among those cheap for its category - should need the construction and usage (e.g. research from) of specific factories

And also we could clear some units from TC to increase reason of existence for various factories after research.
Or just make them a requirement.



What I only think about (and need an opinion) would be a little more extreme :
- Samurai requiring Dojo (or moving completely to Dojo if two-attack infantry could be added instead)
- Zweihander requiring Barracks
- removing either Jaguar or Eagle warrior (one higher cost mezoamerican unit should be kept)
- removing pikeman
- removing at least one foot shooter
- removing at least one mounted shooter
- removing at least one more cavalry
- removing either ninja or ranger (at least one mountain walker should be kept, I think)

And having absolutely no idea if should be kept in TC:
- War Caravel

[b2198]

- add Nordic Warlord, Celtic Chieftain and Crusade Leader, but making all leaders require respective factories first

Would be wonderful, what about Daimyo?

- remove culture specific buffers: Bishop, Druid

I'm sure at least 2 players would be very nerfed by removing Druid from TC, one may or may not be linked with a reviving flaming bird. I think it would be better to hear their say on the matter beforehand.

- remove some more special units: Berserker, Gallowglass, Gaelic Fighter, Roman Aeanator, Strelet, Sipahi

All of these would be fine in my mind. (Berserker is the one who needs it the most, though XD)

- Samurai requiring Dojo (or moving completely to Dojo if two-attack infantry could be added instead)

Not sure about this one, since it's the only japanese unit in the TC it would open the discussion about having other culture-specific units also require their factory to make, and maybe ones that aren't even in the TC roster. Maybe this would be a good thing in terms of simplifying choices? Like "You want to make only japanese units in all your factories? Ok, but you gotta make a dojo before that to unlock them". Something along those lines.

- Zweihander requiring Barracks

Also not sure about this one, since it would be followed by discussions about which more specialized units should also be factory-locked, like poison horse archers, pikemen, or hussars. Again, maybe this would help reduce the complexity of the game in smaller maps and specially in the early game? Not sure. Would also be hard to balance, since some counters to some units might get factory-locked at some point, which might cause them to run wild in the early game, in a way similar to current berserkers, in that countering them requires spending a bit more time than what you might have available before getting overwhelmed.

- removing at least one foot shooter
- removing at least one mounted shooter

Honestly I feel like we already have too few on TCs, but that is probably my bias towards archer units
Maybe longbowmen/poison archers/fire archers/hospitallers (though I wouldn't mind at all to lose Genoese Crossbowmen, but that is another question XD) for foot and mongolian horsemen/poison horse archers/horse crossbowmen/chariot archers for mounted. Naming these for possible removal in TC roster feels like naming parts of my soul to be removed from me D:
Maybe only factory-lock them instead of removing completely?

- removing at least one more cavalry

I'd say one of these 3: Hussar, Hungarian Hussar or Chariot
Maybe also factory-lock them instead of removing completely?

- removing either ninja or ranger (at least one mountain walker should be kept, I think)

Ninja, probably, I feel like it's way more niche in usage, either that, or I'm one of the only ranger users in the game

What I only think about (and need an opinion) would be a little more extreme :

In general I think almost all of those will run into the discussions I mentioned when speaking about samurais and zweihanders.

And having absolutely no idea if should be kept in TC:
- War Caravel

War Caravel is, stats-wise, more turn efficient than a standard caravel, though that difference gets way smaller after hull and damage upgrades (since war caravel doesn't benefit from ranged damage techs), so my initial guess would be moving it to be dock-only, give it U_ARCHERS spec (so that it can get +2 damage from ranged damage) and make regular caravels buildable by workers, to make the usual distinction of "being stronger but less spammable" vs "being weaker but more spammable" some ships already have (like turtle ship line vs trirreme line, for example)

Edits: better wording... at least I hope so

[phoenixffyrnig]

Presumably the Hospitallers and Templars are out because of being too strong on their own? Odd, but they are really underused in multiplayer - I find them so useful.

Yeah, leaders in req factory sounds good. Will they also be available from the castle roster? I think a general move towards requires factory for most of the better units would be good, agreed.

Haha, true, losing my white-robed, goatie-horned weirdos would hurt me, but I'd like to think I would adapt I agree fully that the game will benefit from these changes - you folks evidently have more organised minds than mine for this sort of thing, so I'm not particularly bothered about individual examples, I'm fine to wait and see how it pans out.

Tbh, I'm not even clear which units have been made factory only and which are requires factory, but as long as there will remain enough choice to sustain any type of playthrough then I'll be happy. Variety is the spice of life

[Endru1241]

Daimyo should probably be added too.
With requirement of course.

Among religious warriors - maybe hospitaller halberds could be removed from tc, just to decrease amount of units.
But they don't break the rule.
To achieve full potential they need upgrade (thus church).
And they are not too much for the cost.

"Strong on it's own" - I meant strong for the cost.

And maybe I forgot to mention, but those units more limited are eligible for slight boost.

[b2198]

Maybe longbowmen/poison archers/fire archers/hospitallers (though I wouldn't mind at all to lose Genoese Crossbowmen, but that is another question XD) for foot

Actually, I forgot about Roman Sagittarius, since they are already produceable in both roman garrison and archery range, and imo are in need for a small buff, since they currently need too many conditions just to compare to other archers in stats (need centurion nearby and legion missile tactics research just to become a tankier arbalest that costs 3 turns), so I think they are the main candidates for removal on TCs (and would also be consistent with other non-upgradeable culture-specific archers, since none of them are currently on TCs).

[b2198]

Seeing how the russian pack topic is going, herbalist should be moved to the slavic factory too, right?

[Endru1241]

I'd say slavic pack.

But yes, that's how I set it.

What's more - this is what actually started it.
I wanted to move herbalist and recalled, that slavic faction is waiting in line for some time, so I made the building and few units to fill the roster.
Spent quite some time on it.

[phoenixffyrnig]

One to open up for debate here, Samurai.

I've been playing a lot as the Japanese recently (with the addition of the cav and anti cav units they are a rather complete and enjoyable faction, good work). But here's the thing, I'm wondering if Hatamoto is too

"Strong on it's own" - I meant strong for the cost.

for TC availability? Double attack, speed 4, rather decent stats, 3 cost and, by being in TC roster, easy spammability. Perhaps he should be Dojo and Barracks only?

Although removing him would leave only Ninja (and possibly in the future Daimyo) as the Japanese representatives in TC - this wouldn't really do imo for forming a balanced army, so something or two somethings would probably need to be swapped in to TC roster in its place if he was removed.

(side point - I also wonder if more faction units should be included in TC but requiring faction building, cases in point, its quite hard to field a balanced celtic or primitive army - perhaps all factions' anti cav should be trainable in TC?)

[b2198]

One to open up for debate here, Samurai.

I've been playing a lot as the Japanese recently (with the addition of the cav and anti cav units they are a rather complete and enjoyable faction, good work). But here's the thing, I'm wondering if Hatamoto is too

"Strong on it's own" - I meant strong for the cost.

for TC availability? Double attack, speed 4, rather decent stats, 3 cost and, by being in TC roster, easy spammability. Perhaps he should be Dojo and Barracks only?

Looking at the recent discussion on celtic warrior, I'm inclined to agree on this one.

Although removing him would leave only Ninja (and possibly in the future Daimyo) as the Japanese representatives in TC - this wouldn't really do imo for forming a balanced army, so something or two somethings would probably need to be swapped in to TC roster in its place if he was removed.

(side point - I also wonder if more faction units should be included in TC but requiring faction building, cases in point, its quite hard to field a balanced celtic or primitive army - perhaps all factions' anti cav should be trainable in TC?)

Yeah, maybe moving Yari Ashigaru and maybe even Samurai Nodachi (since he is imo rather weak when compared to regular samurai) to TCs (and probably requiring dojo to train them, ninja and daimyo) could help on this matter.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Yeah, maybe moving Yari Ashigaru and maybe even Samurai Nodachi (since he is imo rather weak when compared to regular samurai) to TCs (and probably requiring dojo to train them, ninja and daimyo) could help on this matter.

That was my feeling too, but I wanted someone else to suggest it first, since Japanese is my current style.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Couple of other controversial suggestions to kick out of TC roster and into their respective factories...
Longbowman - surely the best pound for pound archer.
Shield Knight - I think the Vanguard upgrade will soon become the most spammed unit in MP now siege has been downed, and in all honesty, VSK is an absolute beast. Surely better in it's specialist factory?

Just my thoughts... keen to hear the thoughts of others on this

[godOfKings]

Vanguard shield knight will become weaker in the future in terms of dmg and speed when it cant b buffed by bard,herbalist or enter wagon, so no

[phoenixffyrnig]

A general observation - Barracks seems to be, in some ways, the least necessary factory. This seems odd and unfitting given the importance of the foot soldier.

To clarify my statement of "least necessary"...
Yes, there are many upgrades that can be done in barracks, but depending on choice of play, sometimes none (or very few) of these are needed. Of the units that are available in barracks but are not available in TC, almost all of these are faction specific and might aswell be recruited from the faction building inspite of the extra build cost due to the extra choice, ie no reason to favour a barracks over a faction building. (NB - I am assuming against a playthrough that is an unpalatable mix of all factions for this point).

I generally find myself building a barracks early on, rushing the relevant upgrades for my chosen playthrough, and then quickly deleting the thing in favour of a more useful factory. This seems a shame, and as mentioned above, in a way, counter-intuitive. In fact, with the exception of the underused Armoured Spearmen, is there anything worthwhile that is available from barracks that can't be had elsewhere? By contrast, stables and to a lesser extent archery range, seem to have several worthwhile options unique to themselves - should we have more units only available in barracks? Or somehow , more of a reason to have/keep a barracks?

[b2198]

100% agree about barracks, I hardly ever build them, only doing so if I need a spearman, pikeman or shielder upgrade, and the situations where those are worth having a barracks are not common for me.

I also generally think lancers being way too good and armored spearman being way too "costlier spearman that doesn't even tank well enough" are also some factors on why barracks are not that useful compared to other factories. More on those... someday, I'm way too busy rn to continue my anti-mounted calculations

I do think they will get a little more use in the next update due to the removal of cavalry inside wagons mechanic, but as phoenix mentioned, if most of its units can be trained elsewhere (including TCs), there's not a lot of reason to build it even then other than for getting some upgrades and switching to a "better" factory.

[DreJaDe]

For my roman strat.
This is somewhat true too

I only build barracks for earlier mercs that I need for earlier advantage.

And if I'm losing to the enemy, as an emergency where I could train so many types of units, unlike the roman garrison.

They are also useful for a counter player like me who likes to adapt based on what my enemy is doing.

The last I could imagine is the normal style tactics which I might play later on. They seem more efficient and might mixed which is hard to counter.

[Aral_Yaren]

I'm developing a new view for Barrack units, mainly the Master Armored Spearman that hold a good chance to be fielded yet somehow too costly (still slightly weak to even M. Skirmisher). Honestly even Man-at-Arm still susceptible to arrows that even their cheap cost and W+M formula don't rise their value much, even in the eyes of many good MP players. The same with H. Zwehänder, that even have their unique AD yet pose little attack value for the army due to their still slightly weakness.

Should we have another infantry enhancement and rebalance just give more value for these Barrack units?