Spearman killing knight will damage spearman

[DreJaDe]

As the title suggest, cavalry damages spearman when killed.

Is this some intentional or bug?

[b2198]

As far as I know, it happens because weapon effects (like the anti-mounted weapon effect) are only applied after a counterattack, so if the damage + bonuses weren't enough to kill the unit, it will take some damage back before applying the extra damage from weapon effect, which is what probably killed the knight in this case. Not sure if it is classified as a bug, though.

[Endru1241]

It may happen.

Damage is now split as attack and weapon effect.

And the exact algorithm of battle here is:
1. Spearman attacks and deals attack damage increased with damage bonuses.
2. Enemy cavalry deals counter attack - attack /2 rounding down, then increased by damage bonuses (except for lancers, which have no bonuses on counter).
3. Weapon effect damage is dealt, if enemy is still alive - so even upon death of spearman. It's also increased by bonuses, but one listed in effect details.

On the defence it would be:
If reach is researched already
1. spearman deals damage.
2. Knight deals damage
3. Spearman deals weapon effect (even if died)

When spearman doesn't have first strike:
1. Knight attacks
2. If spearman surcived - deals damage equal to attack/2 rounded down, then increased by damage bonus.
3. If spearman survived deals weapon effect.

As for if it's a bug - honestly I haven't intended it that way, but it's very interewting on it's own, so I am not gonna fight with it.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Bit of an issue Vs elephants. Spearmen and gisarmamen can easily kill themselves whilst killing an elephant. Also possible for halberdier Vs buffed mahouts. Not yet crunched the numbers with pikemen yet, but same thing l imagine

[phoenixffyrnig]

In fact, imo, bit of an issue in general. I have just realised there was a large blind spot in my testing, both now with elephants and previously Vs other cav - I was only testing full health polearm units. The potential for double KO is actually rather massive when we consider that polearm units might already be at reduced hp before launching their "kill shot".

[Endru1241]

Full health shouldn't create a problem:
Spearmen vs full blacksmith Heavy War Elephant:
Spearman unit attacks : 5 + 5*120% - 4 = 7
Elephant counter: 20/2, so 10 + 10*25% rounded down - 1 = 11
Spearman deals weapon effect 5 + 5*325% rounded down = 21

Spearman survives with 2 hp, Elephant gets 28 damage.

And honestly - if you don't have priests or some upgraded anti-mounted and no blacksmith techs when enemy elephant is already fully upgraded - you are doing something wrong.

[Endru1241]

Btw. Pikeman is much stronger now, as it doesn't have to worry about counter. Just as phalangite.

The rest have to manage their hp and suddenly armor is much better bonus for them, as it makes counter damage much lower.

E.g. voulgier should now be viable option.

Of course it's all up to eventual changes.
In the worst event their hp can be increased and other infantry given some small bonus to compensate.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Yeah clearly this another difference of opinion. I was illustrating why I think this could be an issue by easily manufacturing a situation where a full health unit can be killed whilst killing what it's designed to counter, not fighting like a wally.

What I don't like is how this would make even the most basic anti cav tactics a high maintenance and/or high mortality endeavour, and I also foresee this may cause problems in small map situations where a basic mahout rush could be unbeatable. I will test this out in ingame settings and see how it goes.