:O nice, this will further improve naval warfare, which is already leagues ahead in terms of variety and strategy than it was at the start of this thread
I'm loving the boarding vs anti-ship vs attack vs siege dynamics now
:O nice, this will further improve naval warfare, which is already leagues ahead in terms of variety and strategy than it was at the start of this thread
I disagree, 2 frigates (with +2 damage from ranged damage research) can solo a fully upgraded cannon ship if they get to attack first, which they usually do because of not having stand still to attack and bigger speed, for the same 8 turn cost, and with proper manouvering, none of them are lost(both stay at 24hp, if my calculations aren't wrong, and assuming the cannon ship doesn't try to flee, in which case only 1 will drop to 24hp, while the other stays intact).
Your examples show possibility.b2198 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:45 pmI disagree, 2 frigates (with +2 damage from ranged damage research) can solo a fully upgraded cannon ship if they get to attack first, which they usually do because of not having stand still to attack and bigger speed, for the same 8 turn cost, and with proper manouvering, none of them are lost(both stay at 24hp, if my calculations aren't wrong, and assuming the cannon ship doesn't try to flee, in which case only 1 will drop to 24hp, while the other stays intact).
Against elite catapult ships, assuming the 2 frigates are not very close to each other, it's a victory by a larger margin (both stay at 28hp, or 1 at 1hp and the other intact, if no manouver is done)
Against elite ballista ships it gets a bit more tactical, it's still possible to win against them given enough space and speed to manouver, but it will be close (in some outcomes I calculated for 2 frigates vs 2 elite ballista ships, only 1 frigate survives, with 11, 22, 33 or 44hp)
Edit: rethinking some moves in the 2 frigates vs 1 double cannon, the
"only 1 will drop to 24hp, while the other stays intact"
case is guaranteed if the frigates attack first and both players play optimally, and the
"both stay at 24hp"
case is guaranteed if the double cannon ship attacks first and both players play optimally
Dromon having the same carry won't be like that- I forgot to change it.b2198 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:35 pm Also, I was checking the stats of the new ships, and I'm left here thinking, won't Barcha Longa/Caravel/Dromon Ship make Transport Ship obsolete until Cog? And maybe even then, since attack ships have a higher bonus against transport ships than they have against light ships, so the hp difference wouldn't matter that much, and light ships are faster?
Oh, I thought you were saying that attack ships couldn't fight against siege ships, yeah, I didn't mean to say they had an inherent advantage.
Good points, forgot about wagons and siege towers for a moment.Endru1241 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 10, 2021 11:44 pm Dromon having the same carry won't be like that- I forgot to change it.
I am still struggling if it should have repair left and carry removed or repair removed and carry limited to foot units.
As for them being superior to transport ships - well, what they can carry is the difference here.
Single transport ship can have wagon or siege tower with 3 units.
Caravel and Barcha Longa can only carry flesh and blood.
Also this bonus vs transport ships is another reason to add another one, weaker against light ships.
That was my first thought, but then - 3 turns vs 4 turns and not even capable of capturing tc and no self-sufficient survival against rouge fortress?b2198 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 12:01 am About Dromon, I also don't know which would be better, both versions seem good, but are considerably different ships in terms of usage, but seeing as now barchas/caravels are 4 turns and can carry, maybe remove carry from dromon and leave it as a scout that's not destroyed by a single fire arrow?
Research requires gunpowder, so it's at least a little better comparison.On a sidenote: what about elite turtle ships vs heavy quadrirremes, aren't elite turtle ships just overall better, with 1 less speed but 2 more range, same amount of shots to kill each other, require 7 less turns of research and are considerably tankier? I guess they can only be built on docks, so they aren't as easy to spam, but still not sure if that's enough to make them not dominant
Oh, I didn't see that before, my bad, yeah, that makes sense.
What about making it able to directly capture TCs, so it can be used for early shoreside attacks assisted by other ships, without necessarily requiring ground units to be transported?
AoF Dev Co-Leadermakazuwr32 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
© by Makazuwr32™.
I thought it already works.makazuwr32 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:37 am Just a reminder that stratego plans to make water tcs later (due to our request for aof).
They will spawn only on water and thus must be capturable by water units (ships in case of aos if you ever implement this).
Not sure when though.
AoF Dev Co-Leadermakazuwr32 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
© by Makazuwr32™.
interestingmakazuwr32 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:37 am Just a reminder that stratego plans to make water tcs later (due to our request for aof).
They will spawn only on water and thus must be capturable by water units (ships in case of aos if you ever implement this).
Not sure when though.
Maybe.L4cus wrote: ↑Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:37 pminterestingmakazuwr32 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:37 am Just a reminder that stratego plans to make water tcs later (due to our request for aof).
They will spawn only on water and thus must be capturable by water units (ships in case of aos if you ever implement this).
Not sure when though.
Code: Select all
{
'cannon vs castle': 238,
'cannon vs high castle': 235,
'cannon vs monastery': 239,
'elite cannon vs castle': 286,
'elite cannon vs high castle': 283,
'elite cannon vs monastery': 287,
'double cannon vs castle': 334,
'double cannon vs high castle': 331,
'double cannon vs monastery': 335,
'catapult vs castle': 162.28,
'catapult vs high castle': 150.28,
'catapult vs monastery': 166.28,
'elite catapult vs castle': 193.24,
'elite catapult vs high castle': 181.24,
'elite catapult vs monastery': 197.24,
'area damage catapult vs castle': 278.664,
'area damage catapult vs high castle': 260.664,
'area damage catapult vs monastery': 284.664,
'area damage elite catapult vs castle': 331.512,
'area damage elite catapult vs high castle': 313.512
'area damage elite catapult vs monastery': 337.512
}
}
I mainly compared them because of
Which I (probably wrongly) interpreted as Aral saying that cannon ships could generally beat galleons because they can be built by workersAral_Yaren wrote: ↑Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:16 pm You miss the theme that, in contrast of Galleon, cannonships can be built by A LOT of builders, so even when double cannonship arrives, one can have more than two cannonship stand by (which can be more as the builder number increase).
One thing is Dock+Mines to sustain Galleon. But that strats is harvested in late game and due to mine's valuable randomness, it is still on the line.
Fair enough, what about catapult ships vs cannon ships then? Since catapult ships are more focused on dealing area damage, shouldn't they get the upperhand against multi-tiled buildings (specially megas)? Right now they only do in the case of attacking a monastery (which has low armor compared to castle and high castle) with an elite catapult ship with area damage vs a double cannon ship, and only by ~2.5 damage.
Yeah, that is one of my two main concerns with Galleons (the other being the very high siege-like damage that doesn't require prior setup), that anti-ship ships that come close to it are very likely to get converted if they fail in destroying the Galleon in 1 turn, even without priests or something like that inside them.Endru1241 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:17 am 2nd one may be easily corrected by either decreasing base chance to 15% or making boarding effectiveness not affect great ships (my calcs about boarding were actually assuming such final value for Galleon - ~59% summaric chance to convert Trireme in one turn, while now it's 95%).
Again - it's more about overall balance of siege.b2198 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:16 am Fair enough, what about catapult ships vs cannon ships then? Since catapult ships are more focused on dealing area damage, shouldn't they get the upperhand against multi-tiled buildings (specially megas)? Right now they only do in the case of attacking a monastery (which has low armor compared to castle and high castle) with an elite catapult ship with area damage vs a double cannon ship, and only by ~2.5 damage.
Also - priests inside.b2198 wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:16 am Yeah, that is one of my two main concerns with Galleons (the other being the very high siege-like damage that doesn't require prior setup), that anti-ship ships that come close to it are very likely to get converted if they fail in destroying the Galleon in 1 turn, even without priests or something like that inside them.
My bad then, misinterpreted what you said.Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:43 am Nope, I never said that, and absolutely will never have cannonship to do that (except maybe some ship show up in cannonship range).
Yeah, also agreed on this.Aral_Yaren wrote: ↑Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:43 am And if galleon cannon vs building is to be lowered, it sounds well as the attribute is kinda great seeing how tanky galleon+stronger hulls can be (and not required to move cost action, in contrast of cannonship or catapultship a bit).
Got it
Not sure about this one, on one side, this blocks some problematic things, like 3 bishops + inquisitor or even 4 bishops converting everything on sight or galleon + assassin (or maybe saboteur in the future) attacks on castles and such, but on the other side it removes some versatility from them, not being able to have blacksmiths to buff nearby ships, or having a spy to see what is inside the enemy's ship/castle/fort/TC on approach, or even having a drummer inside to boost the movement of units when going out. Really not sure what would be the best approach here. Perhaps it's fine, since other ships will still be able to be used for that (all light ships and viking ship, and I guess drummer and spy could also be used with transport ships too)