Possible tweaks to Naval Warfare IMPLEMENTED

[Endru1241]

Great Transport won't be affected, as its buildable by worker.
But I made an upgrade for it instead.
And upped resilence a little.
Hp 33->42, armors 0/4->1/5.
After upgrade :
Hp 64, armors 3/6, speed 4, carry 4

In comparison upg transport ship has:
hp 50, armors 2/5, speed 5, carry 2

So I wonder if it should change cost back to 5.

[Aral_Yaren]

Quality up plus alternative production = rise cost. Yes, it should - won't cause issue I think.

Is there also any plan for mending ship upgrade?

[Endru1241]

Quality up plus alternative production = rise cost. Yes, it should - won't cause issue I think.

Is there also any plan for mending ship upgrade?

Well, on the other hand it is still slower.
For the game start 3 vs 5 speed make so much more of an easy target.

As for mend ship - for now I have increased its mend rate to 10 plus with being affected by ambidexteria by 3 it would look almost like an upgrade.
Still fragile, like a healer though.
1st upgrade of cannon ship is all it takes for it being one-shotted.

But low hp problem concerns ballista and catapult ship too.

[Aral_Yaren]

Great Transport's main sells are its higher defensive stats and more carrier slot minus speed vs Transport Ship's speed and (if happen) cheaper turn minus weaker defensive stats. It's totally deliberate to raise its cost or not since after all both are still buildable and players may swap between both, or even with row + gaelic fighter like I encountered before.

As for Ballista and Catapult Ship, isn't there already a plan to raise warship's hp by 10? Or should it be staggered so some ships have more benefits than other?

[Endru1241]

I cannot add hp by constant number to any unit buildable by workers.
Because it would mess with build time.

So +10 hp tech is only for these ships, that are not buildable by workers:
Boarding, Viking, Pirate, Carrack, Fire Siphon, Turtle.


For the rest (or all) would need to be a tech increasing by a percentage, along with mend, construct affect values, but max upgraded units, e.g. Heavy Quadriremes would benefit much more than others.

[L4cus]

how expensive is trireme now? is cost has been reduced? if it has, then i dont think it needs a buff or anything...

[phoenixffyrnig]

how expensive is trireme now? is cost has been reduced? if it has, then i dont think it needs a buff or anything...

I agree from a naval battle point of view, trireme line rules the waves at the moment. Really, it's only cannon fire that can keep the quads/ heavies in check

From the perspective of making landfall on a well defended coast though, I think the increase is necessary or all ships would be sitting ducks to a coastal castle or fort. Potential redress by adding anti ship ship attack bonus to ballista and catapult ships? (I know they have slight bonus Vs ships, but we're talking about a serious amount of hp for heavy quads and turtle ships).

Last point - fair play Endru, I started this thread because sea battles were getting so dull. They bored me so much with the inevitability of cannon ship spam that I was actively avoiding maps with any water on them. Within a matter of weeks you have made naval warfare exciting again, and have introduced nuances and varied possibilities that will now bring strategy to the water. Chapeau

[phoenixffyrnig]

Suggestion - increase base attack of cannon ability in turtle ship. It has the same boni as galleon cannon ability, but a rather measly power of 12, making it pretty much irrelevant compared to normal attack.

Vs Heavy Quad: normal attack = 17, cannon attack = 9
Vs Turtle Ship: normal = 15, cannon = 7.

In other words, turtle ships don't really benefit from gunpowder. Considering their cannon is only a short range of 4, I don't think it would be too disruptive to scale it up to match galleon's cannon attack. Admittedly this gives them a bit more versatility, but it would allow them to become better at their job with the advent of gunpowder.

[godOfKings]

May b the normal attack is for ships while the cannon attack is for buildings? Check how the damage fares against factories and towers then decide if it needs damage increase or not

[phoenixffyrnig]

Yeah, as mentioned, it has same boni as galleon cannon, so it would become better Vs buildings and siege machine armoured, but only from range 4, easily outranged by many land units, which is why I don't feel it would be too disruptive. Yes, some more versatility Vs some things, ships included, but it is a cannon after all, that's what they do.

Tbh, if that was a problem, I'd rather base power for the ability was raised and the non ship boni were dropped, because as things stand, gunpowder doesn't really improve this anti ship ship in any meaningful way.

[Endru1241]

It somewhat true - cannon shot indeed doesn't improve anti ship capability in any meaningful way, but it can be used quite effectively against towers.
Making power 20 decreases advantage of galleon.
It is 4 turns longer to build after all.

Dropping bonuses is not an option, because many other units use this ability.
New one would have to be created.

It's also true, that turtle ships becomes a little too weak at the endgame.
If it's compared to trireme line:
It comes slightly on top at the start - more hp, more armor, 30% weaker attacks, more resistance to conversion, better range (including effective range of attack in turn), but slower.
Direct confrontation is similar - both need 3 attacks for destruction of another, but thanks to higher effective range - 7 compared to 6 it is likely to attack first.
But it has with different utility thanks to range and speed and inability to be constructed by worker.

But against heavy quadrireme - lower hp (or barely higher with new tech), still slightly higher armor, but with much less difference, 45% weaker attack, the rest is unchanged.
Direct confrontation changes to turtle ship needing 5 attacks, while being destroyed in 2 (3 thanks to the tech).
Ability to damage buildings farther from shore line is good, but probably not enough to make up for the difference.
So to stay competitive it would need an upgrade increasing these stats: attack, hp, armor.
Ability power increase could be a bonus.
E.g. attack 14, hp 93, armors 13/9, ability power 15.
Assuming balancing it towards heavy quadrireme.

With balista, catapult and mend ship upgrades it would almost complete whole water rebalance, leaving board ships as weakest, but working like priests.
There would only be caravel left, which is meant as something similar to light cav - fast, hitting hard where it hurts but, not strong enough to be any real danger towards main line battle units.
I still don't know how it could be changed to properly fulfill the role.
Any ideas?

[b2198]

There would only be caravel left, which is meant as something similar to light cav - fast, hitting hard where it hurts but, not strong enough to be any real danger towards main line battle units.
I still don't know how it could be changed to properly fulfill the role.
Any ideas?

I would say decrease cost from 5 to 4 along with some hp reduction, maybe? It doesn't have that much utility in direct combat, so, like light cavalry, it doesn't need that much hp to do its job.

Maybe even decrease the cost even further to 3, but remove the ability to carry units and to mend itself? That would make it a good early scouter and very good counter to early transports. Would also be somewhat useful later with 8 speed to get vision quickly in a situation where flying scouts would get instantly killed, because the enemy may have to redirect considerably more firepower to take down a caravel (even with lower hp) than it would be needed to take down a flying scout.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Yeah, an upgrade to keep it viable end game would be good. Although raising ability power to 16 would bring it on a par with Corsair ship... (he said in a hopeful manner).

Re Caravel, the obvious immediate response would be to drop cost to 4, especially if by nature it is going to be almost immediately outclassed. Admittedly that's just a rebalance, not really role fulfillment. I will keep thinking. I have never used them, does their repair put out fire, ie acts as a repair action or is it hp regeneration?

[Endru1241]

Ok. Maybe I'll make it more precise - I meant light cavalry as a category, like e.g. Hungarian hussar, not only Light Cavalry unit, which also often fills role of cheap scout.
Cheap scout is yet to be created as a ship - don't have any visual ideas for it.

Coming back to caravel - I made it to be used similarly to light cav send out standalone to take unprotected tcs and attack anything weak.
Thus 1 carry space to take some cheapest unit for tc occupation.
Thus selfrepair, which is just possibility to use action for mend with 0 range (self-only) to not be screwed by one rouge fire archer or fortress.
Thus attack similar to galley, but with lower range.

So cost decrease should be fine, I think.
But not to the point of necessity of removing its innate abilities.

[Aral_Yaren]

How about Scout Raft? The basic design may seem like Transport but customed, speed 6 cost 1 hp 20.

Also how about Mending Ship also available to build structures like mine (that produces valuables), but only in shores to produce Fishing Ships?

[Endru1241]

Cost 1 wit 20hp?
Nah.
It would become ultimate annoyance.

Back when fishing ship had 20 hp it was used as cheap blockade and it's cost 2.


As for mendship build - definitely no.
Each builder unit has to be only available in official training buildings and for the best - more limited ones.

Even back when mend ship was not buildable by workers ability to construct was removed for some reason, so I believe it must have been game breaker by being either:
- unbalanced
- annoying

[L4cus]

There would only be caravel left, which is meant as something similar to light cav - fast, hitting hard where it hurts but, not strong enough to be any real danger towards main line battle units.
I still don't know how it could be changed to properly fulfill the role.
Any ideas?

I would say decrease cost from 5 to 4 along with some hp reduction, maybe? It doesn't have that much utility in direct combat, so, like light cavalry, it doesn't need that much hp to do its job.

Maybe even decrease the cost even further to 3, but remove the ability to carry units and to mend itself? That would make it a good early scouter and very good counter to early transports. Would also be somewhat useful later with 8 speed to get vision quickly in a situation where flying scouts would get instantly killed, because the enemy may have to redirect considerably more firepower to take down a caravel (even with lower hp) than it would be needed to take down a flying scout.

for 3 turns ship i alerady suggested penteconter, that was an undocked galley, allowing great speed...caravel could actually be somewhat of a ranged light cav for water

BTW i also suggested an upgrade for caravel, or actually, caravel would be an upgrade of another unit...http://ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic.php? ... c2c1422c53

[Endru1241]

There would only be caravel left, which is meant as something similar to light cav - fast, hitting hard where it hurts but, not strong enough to be any real danger towards main line battle units.
I still don't know how it could be changed to properly fulfill the role.
Any ideas?

I would say decrease cost from 5 to 4 along with some hp reduction, maybe? It doesn't have that much utility in direct combat, so, like light cavalry, it doesn't need that much hp to do its job.

Maybe even decrease the cost even further to 3, but remove the ability to carry units and to mend itself? That would make it a good early scouter and very good counter to early transports. Would also be somewhat useful later with 8 speed to get vision quickly in a situation where flying scouts would get instantly killed, because the enemy may have to redirect considerably more firepower to take down a caravel (even with lower hp) than it would be needed to take down a flying scout.

for 3 turns ship i alerady suggested penteconter, that was an undocked galley, allowing great speed...caravel could actually be somewhat of a ranged light cav for water

BTW i also suggested an upgrade for caravel, or actually, caravel would be an upgrade of another unit...http://ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic.php? ... c2c1422c53

Yes. I remember.

I proposed name for it - Balinger.

But let me cite myself:

Cheap scout is yet to be created as a ship - don't have any visual ideas for it.

I don't have an idea how to start on making it visually.
Any of the proposed ships to be precise - that concerns your proposed egyptian kebenit too.

Well - the one I can think of some way to make is Junk - it just need to have characteristic sails).
But even that one - not very much inspiration.

[L4cus]

well...junk is pretty ambiguous too...regular description is a large ship with 3-4 junk sails so i though to make it a galley like unit with the capability of using cannons when gunpowder is researched
about the sprite of junk i have seen some great ships in aor discord with the chinese/asian style

[Endru1241]

AoR?
[st]Revolution?[/st] Rise.
Didn't realise we even had something like that.


And btw. if we tried to make real, proper ascendant of Caravel then it would need to be named κᾱ́ρᾰβος or latinized Carabus.
That was where the name was gotten from.
Which as far as I can guess - might have been a type of dromon.
It's hard to really find anything about it and I don't even know if it was byzantine name or just translated عَقْرَب‎ (ʿaqrab) or قَارِب‎ (qārib).

Or maybe functional precestors would be more proper - barinel or barcha longa.

Edit: Checked.

[L4cus]

Age of Rise...

if we are with some kind of dromon, then why not add dromon? it would go dromon => carabus => caravel

[Endru1241]

I am not sure it really should be used as line of upgrades.

Dromon was after all one of the row ships typical for Mediterranean travel and it's very possible it could never really leave sea for ocean travel.

But mainly - it sounds like something else.

That is exactly the reason why I don't like historical names for ship types.
Too hard to make proper balanced line.

And perhaps more important aspect - I don't want to make any of non-worker ships with 2 upgrades, because they are much less spammable.
So they should get the same benefits with one.

[L4cus]

then just use "light galley" for the light ship, with just 1 sail and adding oars, the hull should be narrower too.

[Endru1241]

with just 1 seal

and adding roars

Couldn't stop myself.

[L4cus]

my crap english T_T
lets make like nothing of this happened

[b2198]

with just 1 seal

and adding roars

Couldn't stop myself.

lmao XD

[Aral_Yaren]

Is there any plan to add next tier upgrade catapult ship? Even after the previous update, they need more state boost to compete with cannonship cs.

[Endru1241]

I have upgraded catapult ship sitting around in assets for over a week. Along with the rest of discussed things about naval rebalance.
It was almost finished for last dev update, but I got some discouragement and I honestly can't tell what is most recent status of that.
I hope to get it done tomorrow, bit we'll see.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Could the upgrade have some sort of niche ability, like a shorter range fire-shot attack that deals a strong fire damage like fireships? With cool down if necessary.
a, I think it'd be cool
b, helps against anti-ship ship overload
c, helps keep catapult ships relevant in the gunpowder age.
But mostly a

[Endru1241]

I think something to do with greek fire could be specific to hellenic gymnasion.
Like a tech unlocking it.

But it's for later.


Now all ships should have proper chances to be used as Ballista, Catapult, Mend and Turtle ships got upgrades. Along with caravel changes from other topic. Already in dev version.