What to do with druids? IMPLEMENTED

[phoenixffyrnig]

The fact that these guys can no longer be carried by chariots is an uber-nerf for the Celts. The only way Druids could influence the front lines was by being on the front lines (ie in a chariot). The whole concept of the druid's abilities seem to be built on the necessity of the druid being right there where he was needed.

Attack Geass is now a suicide, due to the necessary proximity we have to leave a 5 turn unit exposed to any nearby missile or cav. The survival Geass is necessary to keep the (low hp, low armour) Celtic warriors and Gaelic fighters alive for the next go, but why sacrifice a 5 turn unit to protect a 2 turn unit? The nature of their spells mean they cannot be saved up for the next go such as the Bard's 3 turn timeout on movement and attack boost - they need to be applied in situ, but to do so now is a death sentence. All in all, no longer worth the 5 turn cost.

Realistically, all Druid is now is a behind the lines booster of speed, or a second rate healer, or an expensive piece of target practice for the enemy. With this change, Celts as a viable playthrough are done for, anti-cav and a few missile units would cut an entire Celtic army to pieces...

So, what to do?
Reduce cost?
Allow druids to cast Survival Geass on themselves or other druids?
Allow the unique Celtic chariot to carry the unique druid?
Spam siège towers and get them nerfed aswell?
Change the limitations of the geasses?
Increase range?
Other ideas?

[godOfKings]

U mean druids can no longer b carried on chariots? Thats bad i made entire campaign maps based on druids on chariot playstyle...

[Endru1241]

U mean druids can no longer b carried on chariots? Thats bad i made entire campaign maps based on druids on chariot playstyle...

Why?
The chariots carry (spacious chariot tech) was implemented from the very start with limitation of no healers and no workers.

The fact that these guys can no longer be carried by chariots is an uber-nerf for the Celts. The only way Druids could influence the front lines was by being on the front lines (ie in a chariot). The whole concept of the druid's abilities seem to be built on the necessity of the druid being right there where he was needed.

I only made it more unified to also disallow non-healer convincers, spies, assasins and other non-military units.
If any healer could be carried before - it was a bug.

I did not participate with spacious chariot implementation, but my guess is, that it was supposed to be limited to military units the whole time.

Also - druid is already one of the most resistant support units - at least it survives 2 attacks from fully upgraded archers.

Range could be increased though - I haven't really thought much about it, when implementing and even heal from regular priest has 4 range, so it could be easily changed to 4 and maybe even 5.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Also - druid is already one of the most resistant support units - at least it survives 2 attacks from fully upgraded archers.

Yes, he has more hp, but compare to other healers, 3 turn cost plus conversion ability, or other 5 turn support units such as bishop only a couple hp less plus his other abilities, or herbalist, who has lasting effects, druid is somewhat lacking. On top of that, Druid's buffs only work for Celtic faction, so he has more limited use than most support units.

I agree with the change in principle, obviously a protected and upgraded priest with extra movement is OP, and I was on the point of PMing you Endru about the imbalance of a barded chariot with an assassin inside getting the move geass, but the side effect of this course-correction is a hard nerf here.

I have been playing a lot with Celts recently, so I will willingly admit to a vested interest here, but they have serious limitations to go with their serious strengths. The use of druids on the front line was a big part of what makes them so powerful in the field, and that is there main strength, front line combat. But only after significant investment (warpaint, spacious chariots, plus a couple of druids - that's almost 20 turns just to make your army viable).

What would you think Endru, of a druid being able to Geass another druid, if not itself? Two druids would spend more than half their time keeping eachother alive on the battlefield, shouldn't be OP for a 5 turn unit. And unless you have serious reservations about the druid himself, my recent experience with the Celts makes me think this would strike a good balance - yes their main strength has gone but this would still keep them competitive.

[godOfKings]

Well wen we talked about which units to use chariots while keeping it realistic, it was a long time ago

Now lets talk about it from balance point of view instead of realistic

Melee combat units need high hp structures that can protect them as them move closer to the target building, so battering ram and siege tower,

Ranged combat units usually have high range to stay far away from opp so they dont need any mobile garrison, but they can still utilise them for added protection, so siege tower and siege mantlet

Now we come to support part, support is in a tricky situation because, it is slow, it needs to stay close to melee units to support them, it is very weak and so risky to keep it close to frontline

Now siege tower can take care of the drawback of both being weak and bringing it close to melee units, but it still suffers from the drawback of being slow,
Siege tower is not fast enough and it is difficult for support to reach the melee units from it

meanwhile a chariot gives the mobility advantage it needs to quickly provide the buff to melee units then escape instead of needing a very long time to buff from far away and waste precious turns by which opp can quickly prepare for the atk,

So far neither melee nor range unit needs chariots because it is rather risky to bring chariot too close, and if chariot is too far then it cannot b utilised to full potential, but as support unit is stuck in the middle, both support and chariot can b utilised to full potential from this position,

The role of chariot (and any other mounted unit) is to stay in the middle position where they can quickly move to melee range to deal the finishing blow on any enemy unit then retreat and let the defensive infantry and high hp sieges keep on advancing forward, which synchronises with the role of supports that also stay in the middle position

[godOfKings]

Is chariot assassin combo faster than wagon assassin combo?

i already said before that rather than killing whole building, it is better if a feature can b added to kill a unit garrisoned inside, so assassin wont b able to kill wagon, siege machine armored and buildings, but kill any unit garrisoned inside them, and if its a factory or castle then assassin can also sabotage and steal tech from them, it should b like wat it can do to an enemy tc, i still dont like the idea of assassin killing whole castles

[Endru1241]

No matter the reasons, what I am willing to change at all:
- druid range
- add a unit being specific carrier, that allows shooting (and ability usage) with proper balanced cost, carry capacity, resilence, speed
- elephants being able to carry all support units
- chariots being able to carry all support units

In order of willingness to change that.

My reasons:
- Druid shouldn't be ever used as a defensive wall and survive geass would allow that. It not good for either balance or flavour.
- moving chariot platform is still not very stable and misc support units could often consist of physically weak people, like old druids, so flavour wise it's not very good. Balance wise I am afraid of speedy supports with military unit resilence and bonus attack to make things worse.
- on elephants castles could be seen as more stable (unless struggling or charging), less speed is also better for balance and has similar limits to siege tower.

PS: I plan some assasin change, but not sure if I'll manage any in building separate killing - I can think of a way to eliminate all units inside, but even affecting first is beyond me. Selecting one to eliminate would surely need code changes.

[godOfKings]

Actually there is one flaw in ur logic, if standing on a chariot and supporting allies is really difficult then y can a missionary still support allies while on horseback? If ur logic is chariot is rapidly moving and unstable then wat about wen it is in the rear and not engaging in battle?

In real war, the only time wen chariot is fast and unstable is wen it is fighting enemies and moving from one part of the battle field to another

which in-game could represent chariot attacking enemies or escaping from enemy towers, however nobody would put a support unit inside wen the chariot is close to enemy atk and at risk of dying, the same way no one would put a missionary within enemy atk range, and yet missionary can still move on horseback at 4 speed while healing allies and converting enemies without caring about the unstable horse moving rapidly because subconsciously we agree that missionary is not engaging enemies in a war which would require it to move fast and unstably, so why is it applied on chariots?

On the other hand, chariot getting speed buffed from bard and druid spells with an assassin inside is a different situation and for that we can remove assassins from entering chariots in order to prevent op snipe assassinating castles from far away

[godOfKings]

Right now the situation is i m slowly bringing my celt units close to enemy base while my druid is stuck in the siege tower which gives ample time for enemies to make lots of ballista and cannon towers, i have seen wat worker spams can do in late game, it take 1 turn to make a bunch of towers near tc,

In order to prevent opponent from quickly making expensive towers, we could utilise chariot based fast atks instead of siege tower based atks which would prompt enemy defenders to rely on cheaper low dmg towers instead of making expensive high dmg towers to deal with siege tower, basically a speed based siege atk simulation instead of resilience based slow moving siege atk simulation

[Endru1241]

Actually there is one flaw in ur logic, if standing on a chariot and supporting allies is really difficult then y can a missionary still support allies while on horseback? If ur logic is chariot is rapidly moving and unstable then wat about wen it is in the rear and not engaging in battle?

In real war, the only time wen chariot is fast and unstable is wen it is fighting enemies and moving from one part of the battle field to another

which in-game could represent chariot attacking enemies or escaping from enemy towers, however nobody would put a support unit inside wen the chariot is close to enemy atk and at risk of dying, the same way no one would put a missionary within enemy atk range, and yet missionary can still move on horseback at 4 speed while healing allies and converting enemies without caring about the unstable horse moving rapidly because subconsciously we agree that missionary is not engaging enemies in a war which would require it to move fast and unstably, so why is it applied on chariots?

Missionary unit is prepared for mobile work.
On it's specific terms.
Unit is classified as mounted, because it's movement and potential counters fits, but it can consist of some sort of specifically prepared wide saddles, maybe some small wagons.
It comes with a cost of lower range and efficiency though.

Chariot unit is military one.
It doesn't have anything to make such travel easier. What's more - normally it only have space for standing position, that surely requires much more physical abilities to use without slowing it down. It is not supposed to be transport.
The idea here is that we split foot unit on chariots and essentially combine two units to have one with double attack ability. With variance, so much more useful. But still military foot unit. Trained and with much better strength and agility, than a bunch of old men like druids.

If we want to use something to transport any unit - we have wagons for that.
As lack of shooting/ability usage is pretty limiting, but 3 carry with shooting would be too good, so I have proposed to create new transportation unit with such ability.

But chariot is too cheap for that, especially taking into account the fact, that it has normal attack too.

As for balance side - use wagon or unburdened ram to carry druid, along with packed siege tower and unpack closer to enemy line, moving druid from transport.
Total speed is a little lower than boosted chariot, but really - it was never intended to achieve such boost for transporting support units.

[godOfKings]

Right now the situation is i m slowly bringing my celt units close to enemy base while my druid is stuck in the siege tower which gives ample time for enemies to make lots of ballista and cannon towers, i have seen wat worker spams can do in late game, it take 1 turn to make a bunch of towers near tc,

In order to prevent opponent from quickly making expensive towers, we could utilise chariot based fast atks instead of siege tower based atks which would prompt enemy defenders to rely on cheaper low dmg towers instead of making expensive high dmg towers to deal with siege tower, basically a speed based siege atk simulation instead of resilience based slow moving siege atk simulation

As for balance side - use wagon or unburdened ram to carry druid, along with packed siege tower and unpack closer to enemy line, moving druid from transport.
Total speed is a little lower than boosted chariot, but really - it was never intended to achieve such boost for transporting support units.

Basically its not exactly slow paced but u need to spend a lot of worker turns to make wagons, siege towers and rams by which opponents will also have enough worker turns to make ballista and cannon towers

On the other hand, a chariot based playstyle can b immediately executed in early game without needing to wait for workers as chariots carrying druid, bard, drummer, banner bearer etc. while my other combat units can quickly reach enemy with speed buffs instead of wagons so it will b a non-worker based playstyle

So wat i m pointing out is by opting out support units from using chariots, u r removing the possibility of a completely different playstyle that is not based on worker spams

[phoenixffyrnig]

Range could be increased though - I haven't really thought much about it, when implementing and even heal from regular priest has 4 range, so it could be easily changed to 4 and maybe even 5.

Yes, I think this is needed. As explained, due to his limitations now Druid comes in as rather expensive. Are you thinking an increase to heal range, Geass range, or both?

But chariot is too cheap for that, especially taking into account the fact, that it has normal attack too.

I am guessing you mean both normal 3 turn chariots and the 4 turn Celtic chariots. How about if the 6 turn Chieftain could carry him? Also Chieftain is less of a front line fighter so the old granddad stuck with a boy racer is not to problematic for flavour reasons here, just a question of balance...?

[Endru1241]

I think I'll change druid ability range to 5. It affects both healing and geasses.
This should still be OK.

As for chieftain having different carry limitations - I'd rather avoid that - this unit has other advantages, that explains the cost.
So either we make new chariot gameplay by allowing all supporters (which I am not very found of) or none at all.
I am gonna change assasin to have ability instead of regular deathtouch, so I can just as well change it to 2 different ones:
- kill unit - only flesh and blood can be targeted
- kill all inside - only constructs with carrier category (all buildings, machines and ships with carry capacity will have this category) can be targetted and it kills all flesh and blood on a tile.

[godOfKings]

Well considering that the buffs r actually really good, like galloglass with atk buff atking a castle on centre could almost deal 300 dmg thanks to aoe,, and defense buffs protect well early game, i would say 3 range was good for such good stats, but then again without chariot its mobility is reduced and to protect itself it needs to make for it with higher range, just not sure wat the implication would b wen suddenly a 5 speed gallowglass appears next to ur castle and the druid is 5 tiles away in a siege tower giving atk and shield buffs and its difficult for ur far away cannon towers to reach siege tower because of this change,

I see bards also have 3 range so if i want to use druid bard combo then there would likely not b any significant change in gameplay even if druid has 5 range

[makazuwr32]

Why won't you give an aura with range 0 for chariots that reduces spell range of units inside?
To show the fact that druids and other casters have lower range of units whom they can affect while being inside it. For example -2 range to spell range of units.

[godOfKings]

If may b -1 range to simulate situation similar to missionary, that is also a good idea

[Badnorth]

Why won't you give an aura with range 0 for chariots that reduces spell range of units inside?
To show the fact that druids and other casters have lower range of units whom they can affect while being inside it. For example -2 range to spell range of units.

That's a really nice idea.

I'd prefer it to be GoK's suggestion though. -1 ability range for casters inside chariots.

[godOfKings]

[Deleted]

[godOfKings]

For that we also need to increase spell range of onmyoji buffs that r currently 1

[godOfKings]

@Endru1241 the forumers have voted the solution that has the best of both worlds, also the categories of the aura should b checked to make sure combat units with throwing spells dont get affected

[phoenixffyrnig]

Well considering that the buffs r actually really good, like galloglass with atk buff atking a castle on centre could almost deal 300 dmg thanks to aoe....

I like that a big foot army has a chance against a poorly placed castle, gives an interesting dynamic. Obviously zweihanders and berserker can also make use of hitting that central sweet spot. Throw in a few guardians or the underused man at arms, and you can really cause trouble to someone who is skimping on his army.

Anything that forces people to have more fighters instead of more workers makes for better gameplay in my opinion. And I would love to see people using walls as defences in MP.

I see bards also have 3 range so if i want to use druid bard combo then there would likely not b any significant change in gameplay even if druid has 5 range

Thing is with bards, their spells (except for the double attack) last for 3 turns and have no penalties, so he can be used from safety. A druid using attack from 3 squares away would be sniped next go, no questions asked.

[phoenixffyrnig]

For that we also need to increase spell range of onmyoji buffs that r currently buffed

Onymoji also has lasting effects to his spells. I believe Druid is unique in that his spells have no lasting duration in practice.

[godOfKings]

Yes double action can complement speed buff so even if combat unit is at rear for bard to cast spell safely, it can still reach melee range to utilise double action

[godOfKings]

For that we also need to increase spell range of onmyoji buffs that r currently buffed

Onymoji also has lasting effects to his spells. I believe Druid is unique in that his spells have no lasting duration in practice.

I mean if spell range is 1 then after entering it will b 0, so it needs to b atleast 2 to b used

[phoenixffyrnig]

I think I'll change druid ability range to 5. It affects both healing and geasses.
This should still be OK.

As for chieftain having different carry limitations - I'd rather avoid that - this unit has other advantages, that explains the cost.
So either we make new chariot gameplay by allowing all supporters (which I am not very found of) or none at all.
I am gonna change assasin to have ability instead of regular deathtouch, so I can just as well change it to 2 different ones:
- kill unit - only flesh and blood can be targeted
- kill all inside - only constructs with carrier category (all buildings, machines and ships with carry capacity will have this category) can be targetted and it kills all flesh and blood on a tile.

Tbh, I'm pretty happy with that. As the title of the topic implies, I was more in favour of a druid rebalance than a reversal of the change.

Re assassin changes, also good i think. Probably means I will be revisiting the idea of a bespoke saboteur to take out constructs and buildings. Partly because I think it is a valuable and valid ability (is also a great leveller for people who aren't fully upgraded and lacking in siège) , and partly because there are some instances on some maps where one player might have the space to build a castle and the others not.

[Endru1241]

For that we also need to increase spell range of onmyoji buffs that r currently buffed

Onymoji also has lasting effects to his spells. I believe Druid is unique in that his spells have no lasting duration in practice.

I mean if spell range is 1 then after entering it will b 0, so it needs to b atleast 2 to b used

Or be set as having absolute range.

I actually wonder if it wouldn't be good to set -1 ability range for bow/throw abilities users (I am working on adding them all proper categories anyway), -1 attack range for ranged foot units and -2 ability range for support misc users.
That along with increasing tell fortune range to 3 (or setting it as absolute) and giving druid at least +1 spell range could fit nicely and won't decrease mounted ranged units advantages.
Meanwhile elephants could get -1 ability range for support units.

But there is one disadvantage to all these ideas - there is no aura setting to work only for units inside, so it would be affecting all in the same tile anyway (in towers, castles, tcs).

[godOfKings]

Atleast chariots and elephants cant enter wagons and siege towers so thats one place where support can b at full strength

[godOfKings]

Wat if another thing to 'prolong' the inevitable disadvantage is by making the aura first require the carry capacity researching tech b4 taking affect so at least in the short run it wont b disadvantageous to put chariots in tc...

[Endru1241]

Sure - aura can be given in a tech (or require tech), but it would affect in said way once researched.

[makazuwr32]

But why not just give an aura only to specific units only? Not to all buildings and such?