Possible tweaks for siege warfare in general

[phoenixffyrnig]

Since it came up on chat anyway Dev, I have had a few thoughts on the topic for a while now. I'm sure other people have too, see if we can combine them in one place.

1 - the whole procedure of use is a bit clunky.
eg move and unpack - 1 turn
attack - 2 turns
pack (and move) - 3 turns
(move and) unpack - 4 turns
attack again - 5th turn

There is a whole heap of downtime for them during fights with fluid battle lines. Is there a possibility of allowing ballistae and cats the ability to pack move and unpack as one turn instead of two? (I do not think the same should apply to trebs, this would be OP with their extra range).

2 - rams have almost completely fallen out of use. They are too vulnerable in mobile mode, so they have to be deployed before they can be attacked or set on fire, leaving them with a lot of ground to cover with only 2 speed. Potential to slightly increase hp and pierce armour in mobile mode? What about a speed boost to 3 for the top tier armoured battering ram?

3 - Bogging Axemen! I know these guys are dangerous because I use them all the time. They are probably too dangerous Vs siege. It doesn't take much in the way of buffs to have throwing axemen one shot heavy cats and hwacha left right and centre. A wagon load of these 2 turn bad boys can cause too much damage imo.

I can't believe I am suggesting nerfing one of my favourite units (someone tell Endru, he will weep for joy!) but I think bonus Vs siege should be cut to 50%, and the range boost for the heavy axeman should be lost, giving a max range of 4 with balanced throwing axe... Otherwise these boys are hurling their weapons as far as a ballista bolt.

Hopefully other people have other ideas as well as thoughts on mine.

[godOfKings]

currently axe thrower is only useful for destroying siege and buildings... (archers hide in siege tower and building tower so they dont count and infanrty have too high armor) r u sure u wanna reduce their range? dont musketeer spams affect siege the same way? axe thrower is basically cheaper musketeer and needs a bunch of tech to b as useful as musketeers, no?

[phoenixffyrnig]

I find axethrowers really useful all round. Great for dealing ranged damage Vs high PA units such as skirmishers or shielders, good coastal defence due to bonus Vs ships, they are a ranged unit exempt from the limitations of bard. I accept your point about requiring much more investment than handgonners, but axemen are much more spammable because they can be trained in more places, and with bonus attack are much more deadly to siege.

For a two turn unit, they are very multi-purpose - being able to one shot heavy cats and heavy trebs (with some slight buffing) makes them rather OP from my view. I stand by the suggestion to massively reduce bonus attack Vs siege, but am split 3 ways re my point on range.... maybe the range 5 ballista is underpowered and does not make a good reference for my point...

[Hyuhjhih]

Nerfing axeman ‼

I don't want to lose another good unit. The last one i lost is cats(with packing, unpacking, again packing and ..... and finally torn of wraps and packets) and the cool guy (making him not so cool guy).


But , sure a suggestion from mine is that, axeman ,excluding from any of the bard's/herbalist double attack buffs can make it less of a potential threat for mid game elite axeman strategy.AND surely no cutoff bonuses. Axeman is pretty vulnerable to long bows , demanding its only use is anti siege, and anti building. Maybe max range can be , with all the tech upgrades, limited to 4 is nice.

[Hyuhjhih]

Rams are atleast retaining its stats and has an advantage of optionally getting more mobility in needs.
So it can be excluded from lists of nerfing.

So the only thing i can agree here is 1.

And i can add 4.

4. Siege towers at 5(esp when workers form a guild specifically for the mass production of em) and a huge health pool is sometimes a little bit frustrating.

My suggestions are

1. Hp 120》70@ cost 5 OR hp 120 @ cost 7 constr bonus 60%》40%
2. MR is 150》60% OR can be occupied (captured).

[phoenixffyrnig]

Rams are atleast retaining its stats and has an advantage of optionally getting more mobility in needs.
So it can be excluded from lists of nerfing.

I was suggesting a slight boost to rams, not a nerf. Atm they are pretty much just glorified umbrellas.

Re 4
I have been playing around recently with siege towers and have yet to make up my mind one way or the other. Initially I thought they might be a bit too useful, but as I observe more, I think it is more of a case that they are not countered properly. Almost every foot melee unit has a huge bonus Vs Siege Machine Armoured - one wagon load of the right footmen could take it out in one - same as with a wagon, you gamble if you leave more than one unit inside.

Siège towers cost 5 turns to train, but cost 6 turns to build. They also have no mend bonus so are high maintenance to look after for anything more than a couple of turns

Your idea of capturing siege towers is interesting, how would that work, same as TCs and longboats, an empty one can be walked into?

[godOfKings]

Siege towers r weak against cannon tower and castle so no nerf pls

For axe thrower, the only nerf i think of is making it not melee category so that it wont get the bard buffs, make it thrower, like skirmisher category

Axe thrower is only op wen it gets dmg and action buff from bards, so if it doesnt get these benefits it will b balanced @Endru1241 @phoenixffyrnig

[phoenixffyrnig]

Siege towers r weak against cannon tower and castle so no nerf pls

I agree, except for early game and no man's land, siege tower is very easily defended against. Leave as is, but I am open to persuasive debate.

Axe thrower is only op wen it gets dmg and action buff from bards, so if it doesnt get these benefits it will b balanced

I disagree here. With current 100% bonus Vs siege, hwachas are one shotted by upgraded axemen, and it only takes plus 1 (easily done by many means, as you know) to one shot heavy cats. This is a 2 cost unit that can easily one shot 6-8 cost units - that is my issue with axeman. It is so versatile for it's price, if it was to retain it's anti siege superpower it would probably be better off as a 3 turn unit. (Please note - this is my favoured unit I am talking about...it is too powerful!)

[Squirrel5555]

Bard is so powerful... he throws everything out of order and makes balance difficult.

It's not axe thrower who is too powerful; it's always bard who throws the very intricate bonus balancing out the window.

Well, not that I have any suggestions. Anyone can use bard so I guess it's balanced, but I dislike the unit strongly, like most strategies that support striking first so drastically e.g. old units in rams in wagons traversing half the map.

But what do I know

[phoenixffyrnig]

e.g. old units in rams in wagons traversing half the map.

Ah yes, that old trick. Glory days.
My apologies Squirrel, you suffered worse than most.

I am worried I might be muddying the waters here, I wasn't after a full re-balance of the axeman, I just think it would be best to stop the one-shotting of high cost siege units with a reduction in bonus attack to siege. From my point of view, the 100% bonus to siège is generally more imbalancing than potential buffs

[Badnorth]

No. Nerf. Axeman. Bard. No. Ruin. My. Favorite. Units.

[Badnorth]

On a serious comment tho. I don't think throwing axeman is OP. It's those who buff it makes it powerful. Herbalist and Bard.

Maybe it is best to make it ranged category instead of melee. To not receive buffs from them.

[godOfKings]

Just checked stats, fully upgraded axe thrower should deal 18 dmg at most, may b they were buffed by other units that they could 1 shot hwacha

But ya i think siege bonus can b 50% instead, that way 2 axe throwers can still slaughter cats

May b also give upg. ballista 6 range?

[Aral_Yaren]

I agree with baddy. These dudes have lethal bonus damage vs castle and it is too much for 2 turn unit imho: add some supports like bard or herbalist plus siege tower and wagon to circulate, then one could say gg castle. Making axe-thrower a ranged unit may work.

[phoenixffyrnig]

GoK, axemen also get the infantry attack boni from blacksmith giving them 8+3 base attack. Anyway, there seems to be some sort of reluctant consensus on point 3, painful as it is to say, slight downward tweak needed for axemen, couple of different ideas (I withdraw my suggestion to reduce range).

Points 1, 2 and 4 - any other thoughts?... Any other points to bring to the table?

[Hyuhjhih]

Told you , excluding from bard , blacksmith swift upgradrs and herbalist buffs is the complete pack of solution. No nerfing needed.

[Hyuhjhih]

2? Rams are already pretty good now.

[Endru1241]

Hearing all that I think, making buffs targeting melee not affect axe thrower would probably be the best.

But to be honest I'm not really sure if axe thrower bonuses are ok.
I remember makazuwr suggesting once to make axe thrower more of an anti-heavy unit.
It could be considered to some extent.

[godOfKings]

Axe thrower is currently only ranged cheap unit that deals high dmg to buildings and they r specially useful wen the area around building is already blocked by melee units and new melee units cant reach them,

there r enough ranged anti infantry units already (archer and hwacha for light, musket for heavy)

[Endru1241]

The question is if it's not too useful.

I removed any possibility for wagon catapult spam exactly to give some chance to defenders.
If another unit is currently used in similar role - it's not by the design, but rather because of missing something on previous siege rebalance.

I mentioned anti-heavy bonus as a way to give something in exchange.
E.g. 100.00% 200.00% 700.00% -> 50.00% 125.00% 500.00% (lowering overall damage against them by 25%, not counting armor) and adding +25% vs heavy melee as recompensation.