Berserker Rebalance RE-OPENED

[TheSenate-_-]

Ok I love the unit it's interesting and it gives the otherwise niche viking hall some great attention. The issue here is that it is too good. Especially for it's cheap price. I've been in 5 games now since the last 2 updates where an opponent would exclusively use berserkers and dominate any other melee army. So much so that they would exclusively use only berzerkers as their melee units. I'm fine with a good option, but when the option completely outclasses all, and I mean all other melee units and nulls croud control units like hwacha and balista you've to draw the line or it makes matches predictable and boring.
Now on what to do on nerfing the berserker? I think we should make it cost 5 turns, and give it a downtime period after it's done with the berserker mode. After berserker mode is over it should have a short 2-3 turn debuff period (Not sure what any ideas?) To make it a more risk reward situation to make him more balanced. Without breaking what makes people use him for in the first place. I'd keep going, but I'm not sure if anyones going to notice this post and I'd rather not potentially waste more time until this has gained some traction.

Alright then thank you for reading this far much appreciated and I hope you share your thoughts on this! Have a great day.

[Endru1241]

Berserk ability has 7 turn cooldown, while ability lasts 4, so it already has 3 turn of downtime.
Berserk being fragile, very weak for 4 turn cost unit, should be defeated easily in this time. Especially by arrows - it has 25 hp, 0 p.armor and is unaffected by blacksmith.
Well, in melee it has 2 armor even not under berserk, but this unit is supposed to be good in melee.

Meanwhile hwacha deals 9/6/3 even on berserker under rage. Twice.
Archery lv2 makes regular 2 turn arbalester deal 4 damage, and whole 9 if not in rage.

If I'll be nerfing berserker - it would rather be his attacking side or maybe category.
But I don't think it really needs a nerf.

[phoenixffyrnig]

I think The Senate has a valid point here. For a good few weeks (I guess since the rebalance) there has been a huge increase in berserker use in MP, sometimes almost to the point of exclusivity, as mentioned in the op. I have been keeping an eye on this one for a while now because I have felt it to be just a little unbalanced.

The cooldown is a relatively moot point when people use them as hordes of suicide attacks. The problem is, you simply cannot allow a berserk beseker to attack you, it's too dangerous, especially with the risk of it being barded. So you have to kill it, at all costs. And they do take a lot of killing. That is the main problem with berserkers I feel, they are a guaranteed turn sink - it will take most people more than "4 turns worth" of attacking to deal with them, therefore being an easy way to build up a cumulative advantage with no call for guile or skill.

Another issue is that berserkers are available from the beginning. To take the examples given, arbalest plus upgrades or hwacha are a long time away from being a viable countermeasure at this stage. As is their obvious enemy, cavalry. A bog standard knight will not do much damage until upgraded.

Does anything except Flail man have a bonus Vs Shield Bearers? Would it unbalance things to give berserker the heavy foot category? This would at least give him some natural enemies - he is a hugely powerful unit to be able to roam around almost unchecked early game.

[Squirrel5555]

Well I'm not too good so my opinion isn't worth much but I hope you note what players such as @phoenixffyrnig say.

This is always an issue I had with the game but other than a complete rebalance it can't be "fixed", and in truth it isn't a problem but a preference. It may be my complete incompetence as a military commander but units don't live long in this game.

So in my eyes the 7 turn cooldown is irrelevant in a game where units usually last less than 2 on the frontlines. Even just 4 turns of near invulnerabilty to large portions of the roster is game bending, especially on smaller maps. And at the same time this mushroom-crazed old fart is out-dueling my heavy knights.

[Endru1241]

Well I'm not too good so my opinion isn't worth much but I hope you note what players such as @phoenixffyrnig say.

This is always an issue I had with the game but other than a complete rebalance it can't be "fixed", and in truth it isn't a problem but a preference. It may be my complete incompetence as a military commander but units don't live long in this game.

So in my eyes the 7 turn cooldown is irrelevant in a game where units usually last less than 2 on the frontlines. Even just 4 turns of near invulnerabilty to large portions of the roster is game bending, especially on smaller maps. And at the same time this mushroom-crazed old fart is out-dueling my heavy knights.

Well. Since the time I'm actively participating in AoS changes ( so even before being designated design leader) - I have been trying to fight against one shoters at least. To be precise - especially cavalry and melee infantry one-shoters. And yet I have brought one such unit myself by poorly balancing it.
When I was thinking of changing berserk - I must have been too concentrated on making his ability fitting and cool.

I think The Senate has a valid point here. For a good few weeks (I guess since the rebalance) there has been a huge increase in berserker use in MP, sometimes almost to the point of exclusivity, as mentioned in the op. I have been keeping an eye on this one for a while now because I have felt it to be just a little unbalanced.

The cooldown is a relatively moot point when people use them as hordes of suicide attacks. The problem is, you simply cannot allow a berserk beseker to attack you, it's too dangerous, especially with the risk of it being barded. So you have to kill it, at all costs. And they do take a lot of killing. That is the main problem with berserkers I feel, they are a guaranteed turn sink - it will take most people more than "4 turns worth" of attacking to deal with them, therefore being an easy way to build up a cumulative advantage with no call for guile or skill.

Another issue is that berserkers are available from the beginning. To take the examples given, arbalest plus upgrades or hwacha are a long time away from being a viable countermeasure at this stage. As is their obvious enemy, cavalry. A bog standard knight will not do much damage until upgraded.

Does anything except Flail man have a bonus Vs Shield Bearers? Would it unbalance things to give berserker the heavy foot category? This would at least give him some natural enemies - he is a hugely powerful unit to be able to roam around almost unchecked early game.

Best melee counter for him on paper would probably be celt (+100% bonus, two attacks), but because of flailmen armor ignore ability it deals highest damage, by far (18 vs 5x2).
Among cavalry probably spahi - 11 damage without any investment.
But increasing berserker vulnerability is not what I have in mind.


I was thinking of this unit as something dominant on the melee battle with enough damage to truly be a danger to ever present heavy melee, like foot knight or spartan. All while facing various cavalry.
So I am thinking:
Berserk ability +13->+9
Berserker power penalty 50%->65%
Berserker gets additional bonuses:
+15% vs medium cavalry
+30% vs heavy cavalry
+25% vs heavy infantry
That would change main attack from 20 to 16, while retaining 10 damage on power range. Heavy infantry would still get the same attack of 20, heavy cavalry even slightly stronger - 21 and medium cavalry halfway - 18.
Bard support still makes it a bad news, especially against those with bonuses, as they'll get even more damage. But it makes most melee units very dangerous.

To make things a little more interesting another thing could be considered.
Unorganized infantry category.
I was thinking if those units, that don't fit to have heavy infantry cat. and still shouldn't get additional bonuses from archers - mainly Highlander, Berserker, Maori (the last one getting hp boost in the process).
It could be the category to get added damage from classic medium infantry, like swordsman and maybe from some light infantry (e.g. with exception of those, that are already specialised against something else or quite strong on it's own).
But that's more for my still ongoing recategorisation/rebalance.

[phoenixffyrnig]

This sounds like a good step to me. It isn't so much the one shot potential of the berserker, but the fact that it is so good at everything, along with AoE and morale penalty, it's a one man army. I think this change would also give it a more defined role too.

As I mentioned, I have observed this for a while (although I have played many players who love berserkers I have not yet met anyone who has truly used them to their full murderous potential. Neither have I yet, I've been busy playing around with a couple of other strats atm... Does anyone want a 1 on 1 berserker fight? PM me) - best counter of all is poison units from safety

(Since you mention the bard Endru, from what I've seen in MP recently, and from how dangerous I can be with them, I think they also need a downward tweak somehow)

To make things a little more interesting another thing could be considered.
Unorganized infantry category.
I was thinking if those units, that don't fit to have heavy infantry cat. and still shouldn't get additional bonuses from archers - mainly Highlander, Berserker, Maori (the last one getting hp boost in the process).

This, other details, and reading between the lines... Is this indicating a desire for "niche" units to have a potentially greater role...? Could be interesting. Certainly would create more variety of play

[Endru1241]

Not sure if they are currently niche, but I want medium infantry to have some more reason to be on battlefield.
As for bard - I was thinking of splitting +3 power as another ability (lasting 2 or 3 turn) and maybe making +1 action song cost both bard actions, but I don't have idea for icon/idicator yet.

[phoenixffyrnig]

I think the biggest problem for medium infantry is upgraded master slinger. Such a cheap way to rip an entire army to shreds - with any other buffs will pretty much destroy any mediums, even with both armour upgrades. I haven't seen a zweihander for months, or an armoured seargeant, for example.

Because of master slingers dominance, "medium foot melee" isn't really a category, it's a weakness.

[phoenixffyrnig]

...this mushroom-crazed old fart is out-dueling my heavy knights.

Squirrel, please talk about me with a bit more respect - I thought we were mates

[Inbreak]

Not sure if they are currently niche, but I want medium infantry to have some more reason to be on battlefield.
As for bard - I was thinking of splitting +3 power as another ability (lasting 2 or 3 turn) and maybe making +1 action song cost both bard actions, but I don't have idea for icon/idicator yet.

+1 action is just double attack of herbalist. It could also last 2 turns.

[Endru1241]

Not sure if they are currently niche, but I want medium infantry to have some more reason to be on battlefield.
As for bard - I was thinking of splitting +3 power as another ability (lasting 2 or 3 turn) and maybe making +1 action song cost both bard actions, but I don't have idea for icon/idicator yet.

+1 action is just double attack of herbalist. It could also last 2 turns.

It is the same, but it shouldn't last 2 turns.
+1 action buff by 3 turn unit should not be the same as +1 action by 5 turn unit if they are both supports having this as main buff.
So 1 turn by bard and 2 turns by herbalist is better.

[godOfKings]

I think berserker still needs a nerf, the worst thing i have noticed is wen a bunch of berserkers just waltz into my territory and i cant do anything but flee and let them take my tcs cuz none of my units can deal much damage to them

I tried to kill enemy wagon and keep berserker stuck within my territory so after ability disappears i can kill them, but they last too long, literally rather than aggressive berserker, they r being instead used as defensive shielders now.

So how about making berserk ability short term so that it can only b utilized for aggressive atks but if u want it to take hits defensively then it would b risky cuz rage will disappear soon

So my suggestion is reduce lasting to 3 turns, 1st turn use ability, 2nd turn go atk, 3rd turn go back, else next turn get killed, (so in battle the ability can only b effectively used for 2 turns)

To match with shorter lasting, cd can also b reduced to 6 turns @Endru1241 (we could also make wolf warrior have same change)

Also bcuz of berserker dmg to heavy cav, heavy melee and buildings, no body uses maceman, spearman or building destroying infantry, this one unit has made more than half of the foot infantries in game obsolete, even heavy foot knight bcuz of its high armor

[Endru1241]

So you are saying the most problematic is their high resistance against everything?
Then they just need some weaknesses.
I think I'll do the unorganised category along with another weakness.
If pure medium infantry got +50% damage (e.g. swordsman 3-6/7-10/11-15) they could be damaged much easier.
Additionally maybe poison?
They're almost impossible to be healed and honestly it very much fits with concept - whatever they did to themselves (drugs, mental ritual or body changes), they are hyperactive. Poison could get +100% damage (8hp/turn) vs berserks and wolf warriors. And poison units could get +60% damage to deal 3/4/6 damage depending on archery level.

Btw. I think bonus vs mega has to go too.

[DreJaDe]

I don't think they really need more nerf.

Just knight are enough to counter them, even I easily counter then with infantry which I really like to play.

I guess if there's a nerf I can agree then the "low morale" should just be active when in berserk mode.

[godOfKings]

Wait knight counter them? R u sure? Knight deal 9 armored berserker about 4 damage ( 9 atk due to low moral + 4 atk from bonus) while berserkers deal knight about 18 dmg, who is countering who here?

Also can u tell me which infantry u use to counter them? I will remember them for future *cough* research

And only noobs would waste a berserker by sending it b4 rage finishes cd so we dont count the case of berserker without rage, that is just a 25 hp meat wall

[DreJaDe]

Wait knight counter them? R u sure? Knight deal 9 armored berserker about 4 damage ( 9 atk due to low moral + 4 atk from bonus) while berserkers deal knight about 18 dmg, who is countering who here?

Also can u tell me which infantry u use to counter them? I will remember them for future *cough* research

And only noobs would waste a berserker by sending it b4 rage finishes cd so we dont count the case of berserker without rage, that is just a 25 hp meat wall

The flail soldier does it for me. Honestly, I already encountered spam of them and that usually take cares of them.

Knights would indeed not counter them upfront but we all know cavalry are for outmaneuvers. Well, in the game spamming then is indeed one of its best use.

In some cases I just basically use berzerk also since unlike other units, this unit doesn't have upgrade so releasing your own even later on won't do you that bad. It also negates it basically.

I also use skirmishers and some long bows to snipe them sometimes when they are still readying for attack.

For me, they already have to many counters.

[Endru1241]

Flailmen are one-shoted by berserk unless infantry armor is researched.
Unique armor ignore property really comes handy here.
+20% damage certainly helps too.
But even with fervor, high morale and both sword blacksmith levels it still needs buffer to one-shot berserk on it's own turn.
Being 3 turn unit.

Adding poison weakness would give safe counter.
Adding swordsmen a bonus would give some cheap unit, that is not one-shotted some damage ability.

[godOfKings]

Ow ya i forgot flails have ignore armor... Guh i m becoming old, my memories r failing me

[godOfKings]

Ok i m no longer sure if berserkers still needs nerf, i have found the one strongest weakness of berserkers, ballista tower, can deal 14dmg in a single turn... basically although a berserker is really op early on, but if i can make at least 1 ballista tower, i can almost smoothly go to end game phase without any trouble

[godOfKings]

The player who utilised berserkers didnt use many other units, other than berserker his offensive was very weak, after getting the hang of it i was able to turn things around, now i m once again undecided about nerfing berserkers

One weakness i have discovered is having to use rage on first turn so it always gives me the chance to adapt quickly, its almost like a melee catapult with its power range but needing to b ready on first turn b4 atking next turn, also its weak to late game archers, the only use late game is the cheap but surviving low morale aura that can affect multiple units in enemy siege tower,

i would rather say its me who is still getting the hang of the new aos playstyle that i suffered horridly in the beginning

[phoenixffyrnig]

Another one I have been keeping an eye on for a while.

The real issue isn't the berserker itself (beast as it is), but that it is so freely available. Obviously there are several decent ways of countering berserkers but ONLY when time and space allows and researches have been done.

Where berserkers are turning into a bit of a grind is small maps, in particular with few TCs. If someone trains a couple of berserkers on their first turn, (which is rife in MP atm) and quickly gets them in a raging state in your base, what can you do to counter that with about 6 turns on the clock and only 1 turns notice? And if you somehow survive them, there will be two more following close behind.

Answer - the only thing you can realistically do is to go toe to toe with them by having berserkers yourself.

Which leads to this situation on small maps...
If your opponent gets early berserkers and you don't, you are toast.
If you get early berserkers and your opponent doesn't, then they are toast.
So you need to either have berserkers or risk being wiped out by them (we got ourselves a nuclear arms race situation going on here).

Best solution I think would be to remove berserker from TC roster (Nordic Hall only, they are a pretty iconic unit for that faction, not to mention pretty much the most destructive foot unit in the game) or lock him behind some tech like Legionaries are (not so keen on that idea, it don't seem right to me).

[phoenixffyrnig]

"You could try assassins...?"


"shut up phoenix, you get my point!"

[godOfKings]

Well there r gallowglass and druids too, berserk might seem op early game but late game they cant handle 1 cavalier while gallowglass with druid buff can have both more dmg, more armor, and more hp (with celt tech) than berserk does being better than berserk in every way (except for the low morale debuff)

[phoenixffyrnig]

Where can I get a cavalier by turn 6?

berserk might seem op early game

There's no might about it, he is. That, specifically, is what I'm talking about here, the very early game. Possible confusion for tagging it on to a long running and wide ranging topic, but let me be clear again, I am not recommending a stat change, just think it messes up the dynamics in the situations I describe.

[makazuwr32]

Maceman and flailman have bonus to berserker and are cheaper.

[godOfKings]

Thats the problem, they dont....

But i think flail man with bard action could still kill a boosted berserker, fine i agree with removing it from tc but it should still b buildable in barracks beside nordic hall

[L4cus]

the fact that they can go berserk so easily (abilities of units commonly are tech required) means they can be viable from the very beggining, and like endru said, versatility indicates op-bility means this unit needs a nerf...as others said, no good counter for him...

since they can use their ability without tech requirement is the major advantage it has

[makazuwr32]

Thats the problem, they dont....

But i think flail man with bard action could still kill a boosted berserker, fine i agree with removing it from tc but it should still b buildable in barracks beside nordic hall

Oh than i missed timing when they've lost this bonus.

[phoenixffyrnig]

Thats the problem, they dont....

But i think flail man with bard action could still kill a boosted berserker, fine i agree with removing it from tc but it should still b buildable in barracks beside nordic hall

Yes. I was also wondering whether to suggest allowing him in barracks...

Yes, plenty of ways to reasonably counter later on, just not right at the start of the game. No change needed to the unit itself imo

[phoenixffyrnig]

as others said, no good counter for him...

Not what I mean. The question in discussion was never "how do I defeat a berserker?, it's more along the lines of "what to do in the face of berserker spam?" And it is very possible to counter this style of play, but only a bit later on when we have a more developed army, and it requires a rather holistic approach, its really not as simple as one or two things in isolation.

This is a long running thread that has previously led to a (necessary) nerf for the berserker unit, but I really don't think we need to further nerf him, just restrict his availability.

Compare to when Mercs were "free" from the first turn - we had tier 3 units going in against bottom level units right from the start, clearly an imbalance. This is the same situation, this super powerful (but not OP) unit needs to be limited somehow because their is no proper counter to berserkers (plural, with more following) in your home town by turn 6

My revisit to this thread is focused on the small map situation, and how we must either prepare for berserkers by having our own berserkers, or risk getting destroyed by berserkers if we don't. I come fresh from facing this scenario (20x20, 3 TCs each), and my very very best play in the face of this for 15-18 turns ONLY won due to sub optimal play by my opponent. Against best play, or even half decent play (again, I stress, small map and right from the word go) I honestly think berserker spam is unbeatable.

Oh than i missed timing when they've lost this bonus.

Maceman have 100% Vs heavy infantry. I'm not sure if berserkers were once categorised that way, but atm they are Mêlée foot and Shield bearers as far as bonus damage goes, leading to an attack of I think 2 by a maceman on a raging berserker.