A few more crusaders produced in the city center

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Sombrar +1
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A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Sombrar +1 » Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:18 pm

Good morning, I created this topic to find out if it would be possible to add some more crossed units to be produced in city centers such as light infantry or crossed light pikemen, the reason this suggestion is precisely because the crusaders had difficulty establishing their army, even with the ability of the crusader leader to summon units through ore carts for example, the fact that they can only produce the cross leader and the monk that even if it is not in fact cross unit he is included in your army,so basically you only have cross support units being produced in city centers which makes it very difficult for the player to play with them at the beginning and even building the priory a the production of your units is random with the exception of the cross leader where you can choose some, if it is for the sake of balance because of an advantage of being able to make an army very fast, at least put something like the random production of light cross units, so the player would still be limited because it wouldn't be possible to make a consistent army the same way.

Also, crusaders are currently only used as occasional units as you can use the crusade leader's ability to get rid of ore carts like the salt cart or cart of building materials, as well as the priory is built exclusively to catch the Inquisitor so the player ends up producing the crusaders only as support and not as the main army.

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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:28 am

Not sure if it would solve anything.
If luck would be good you could start with quite strong unit or two on the very beginning.
It could create some imbalances.
At the endgame they are quite weak.
So getting them for spare carts is OK, but they are not worth any investment. by then.

For production to be worthwhile they'd need some boost or getting cheaper later on.

As you observed - they are now lacking ideas how exactly make them more complete.
To be proper culture they'd need a buffer and some techs, but on the other hand - should they become one?
I was wondering if not bundle together crusaders with religious and add something for both.
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Sombrar +1 » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:53 am

In fact, although it is random, it ends up being quite unpredictable what the player will get, it can be either very strong units or not so much at the beginning, so how much is this really something unbalanced just like you said. This suggestion I made was kind of for them to be able to produce a unit that is not necessarily a support unit, but also wasn't intending something very extensive in a certain way way to add to them just a little bit, but apparently they might really need some improvements to become more playable as that probably still wouldn't solve the problem as you quote.

By the way, add a few more things to them and other religious units might help make them more "exotic", but I don't have much idea what that addition could be, after all, at the moment, the Crusaders manage to have a good healing rate and mental resistance due to the leader's buff and the monk is good because it makes other support units even better as well as buildings,as well as the inquisitor himself.

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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by b2198 » Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:04 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:28 am
As you observed - they are now lacking ideas how exactly make them more complete.
To be proper culture they'd need a buffer and some techs, but on the other hand - should they become one?
I was wondering if not bundle together crusaders with religious and add something for both.
That's an interesting point. Seeing that religious already focus on costly units with late-game* stats (plus healing), and that crusaders are more focused on cheaper units with middle-ish-game stats, I think a grouping of them along with some techs and a buffer like you said could turn them into a solid faction, so I think I like that idea : D


*at least for hospitallers (and even then I never managed to get a proper use for their halberdier, but that might be just me)... templars are not really in a good spot currently (and now that conversion seems to be in a healthier state, I think the same applies to teutons, because that was the only thing that was keeping them somewhat useful imo). To be fair their [Culture Neutral] counterparts (knight and foot knight) aren't exactly in the best spot either, but they're still way more efficient than them, so I think the templars should either get a buff in stats or reduction in cost... or the potential new buffer/new techs for them could perhaps solve this issue too.
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by godOfKings » Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:32 am

If grouped together, how about letting them also b made in church?
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am

godOfKings wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:32 am
If grouped together, how about letting them also b made in church?
That would decrease usefulness of priory.
Why would you ever build priory then (apart of one for inquisitor).
b2198 wrote:
Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:04 am
Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:28 am
As you observed - they are now lacking ideas how exactly make them more complete.
To be proper culture they'd need a buffer and some techs, but on the other hand - should they become one?
I was wondering if not bundle together crusaders with religious and add something for both.
That's an interesting point. Seeing that religious already focus on costly units with late-game* stats (plus healing), and that crusaders are more focused on cheaper units with middle-ish-game stats, I think a grouping of them along with some techs and a buffer like you said could turn them into a solid faction, so I think I like that idea : D


*at least for hospitallers (and even then I never managed to get a proper use for their halberdier, but that might be just me)... templars are not really in a good spot currently (and now that conversion seems to be in a healthier state, I think the same applies to teutons, because that was the only thing that was keeping them somewhat useful imo). To be fair their [Culture Neutral] counterparts (knight and foot knight) aren't exactly in the best spot either, but they're still way more efficient than them, so I think the templars should either get a buff in stats or reduction in cost... or the potential new buffer/new techs for them could perhaps solve this issue too.
There will be teuton upgrade in next version.
Well, technically - an overhaul as I am changing current ones to pre-upgrade (changing images) and there will be an upgrade with better stats, but close to current one images (the same for skins).
Hospitaller Halberdier is kind of jack of all trades, so master of none. That may be the reason.

Ideas:
- simply make both divine right and holy mission stack with each other - in effect we boost both crusaders and religious (it's a shame engine won't allow to modify effect or remove old auras, so that it cannot be tech change).
- tech locked additional aura for teuton leader, that adds +1 ability range to all religious (total overhaul of melee healers/convincers)
- tech boost for crusaders
- tech changing costs of Crusade Calls by -1
- either tech locked or since the start - summon ability for priory, that produces valuables - probably randomised new valuables like carts with alcohol, medicine or something
- buff (or two) casted by bishop affecting both crusaders and religious fighters
- some changes in monk buffs
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Squirrel5555 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:28 am

Looking forward to seeing the new images
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:28 am

Squirrel5555 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:28 am
Looking forward to seeing the new images
Mostly I copied your image of teuton lancer pre-upgrade.
From here https://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic ... 77&t=10706
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Sombrar +1 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:37 am

Good, looking forward and happy for the improvements to come :)

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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by b2198 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
There will be teuton upgrade in next version.
Well, technically - an overhaul as I am changing current ones to pre-upgrade (changing images) and there will be an upgrade with better stats, but close to current one images (the same for skins).
Nice.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
Hospitaller Halberdier is kind of jack of all trades, so master of none. That may be the reason.
That may be it. I'm not a huge fan of "lancer-knight hybrids" either, but can see why some others like them.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
Ideas:
- simply make both divine right and holy mission stack with each other - in effect we boost both crusaders and religious (it's a shame engine won't allow to modify effect or remove old auras, so that it cannot be tech change).
- tech locked additional aura for teuton leader, that adds +1 ability range to all religious (total overhaul of melee healers/convincers)
- tech boost for crusaders
- tech changing costs of Crusade Calls by -1
- either tech locked or since the start - summon ability for priory, that produces valuables - probably randomised new valuables like carts with alcohol, medicine or something
- buff (or two) casted by bishop affecting both crusaders and religious fighters
- some changes in monk buffs
- Sounds good. Wdym by tech change? A new aura that replaces both?
- Ooh, that sounds interesting.
- :thumbsup:
- Probably tech locked would be better. Maybe they could give a one-time heal, one-time weapon effect, or something like that?
- That'd be nice too, just be careful with hospitaller damage.
- I haven't seen many players that do use that buff, and I think currently that's because it's not really worth it for the most part, since you usually want more instances of healing over stronger instances of healing in a battle (unless using something like elephants or maybe cataphracts/vanguards).
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:10 pm

I tried to split it to make it properly readable:
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
Ideas:
- simply make both divine right and holy mission stack with each other - in effect we boost both crusaders and religious (it's a shame engine won't allow to modify effect or remove old auras, so that it cannot be tech change).
- Sounds good. Wdym by tech change? A new aura that replaces both?
Not only new one replacing both, but any modification to valid targets of effect, exact values of effect, aura range (e.g. replacing by another aura with those parameters changed) is impossible.
If it were - I'd add valid targets only with tech.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- tech locked additional aura for teuton leader, that adds +1 ability range to all religious (total overhaul of melee healers/convincers)
- Ooh, that sounds interesting.
And not too hard to do.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- tech boost for crusaders
- :thumbsup:
Question is - what kind of.
Common boost of 20% hp, +1 attack and possibly related effect further giving some +1/1 armor, +1 attack only to melee?
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- either tech locked or since the start - summon ability for priory, that produces valuables - probably randomised new valuables like carts with alcohol, medicine or something
- Probably tech locked would be better. Maybe they could give a one-time heal, one-time weapon effect, or something like that?
Only along with self-sacrifice.
I don't think it makes any sense to have one-time buff and then be used as valuables (if it still had any value - why further buffs are not possible?)
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- buff (or two) casted by bishop affecting both crusaders and religious fighters
- That'd be nice too, just be careful with hospitaller damage.
I always try to exclude ranged from any attack buffs with more than +1 and that I think it could still retain balance considering the cost of 5.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- some changes in monk buffs
- I haven't seen many players that do use that buff, and I think currently that's because it's not really worth it for the most part, since you usually want more instances of healing over stronger instances of healing in a battle (unless using something like elephants or maybe cataphracts/vanguards).
The idea behind the buff was to give monks something to do when they cannot reach damaged unit in the turn.
Maybe shouldn't have tech locked it.
But anyway increase in lasting or range or effect could change things.

I see no comment on:
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- tech changing costs of Crusade Calls by -1
and that is quite controversial (yet similar cost reduction already mentioned in other topics).
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by b2198 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:10 pm
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
Ideas:
- simply make both divine right and holy mission stack with each other - in effect we boost both crusaders and religious (it's a shame engine won't allow to modify effect or remove old auras, so that it cannot be tech change).
- Sounds good. Wdym by tech change? A new aura that replaces both?
Not only new one replacing both, but any modification to valid targets of effect, exact values of effect, aura range (e.g. replacing by another aura with those parameters changed) is impossible.
If it were - I'd add valid targets only with tech.
Ah, got it now.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:10 pm
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- tech boost for crusaders
- :thumbsup:
Question is - what kind of.
Common boost of 20% hp, +1 attack and possibly related effect further giving some +1/1 armor, +1 attack only to melee?
Maybe a bit different, like +40% resistance instead of +20% hp, since they're crusaders? That would make them basically the best army when facing a conversion-heavy strat (other than zerk spam, and probably even stronger than celts, since geasses have disadvantages and usually expire/are removed quickly), or at least the best well-balanced army (begone "zerk spams", meet the "zerks as a part of a balanced army" XD) for that.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:10 pm
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- either tech locked or since the start - summon ability for priory, that produces valuables - probably randomised new valuables like carts with alcohol, medicine or something
- Probably tech locked would be better. Maybe they could give a one-time heal, one-time weapon effect, or something like that?
Only along with self-sacrifice.
I don't think it makes any sense to have one-time buff and then be used as valuables (if it still had any value - why further buffs are not possible?)
Yeah, that's what I meant with "one-time", that they'd be gone afterwards, not just the ability to cast the effect. Sorry, could've been clearer.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:10 pm
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- buff (or two) casted by bishop affecting both crusaders and religious fighters
- That'd be nice too, just be careful with hospitaller damage.
I always try to exclude ranged from any attack buffs with more than +1 and that I think it could still retain balance considering the cost of 5.
Yeah, but I say that because imo they are already in a good state with their current maximum power (which is 8 + 2 (blacksmith) + 1 (morale) + 1 (fervor) + 1 (divine right) = 13 damage), so adding another +1 on top of that might leave them a little stronger than they probably should... Or maybe not, since it's possible that after Lord gets added, pavaise crossbow deployed might still have an edge over them in some somewhat specific cases.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:10 pm
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:36 pm
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- some changes in monk buffs
- I haven't seen many players that do use that buff, and I think currently that's because it's not really worth it for the most part, since you usually want more instances of healing over stronger instances of healing in a battle (unless using something like elephants or maybe cataphracts/vanguards).
The idea behind the buff was to give monks something to do when they cannot reach damaged unit in the turn.
Maybe shouldn't have tech locked it.
But anyway increase in lasting or range or effect could change things.
Yeah, those would probably help.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:10 pm
I see no comment on:
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:47 am
- tech changing costs of Crusade Calls by -1
and that is quite controversial (yet similar cost reduction already mentioned in other topics).
I read that one, but skipped over it when replying :sweat_smile:

So, wait. It's possible to change unit costs with techs?? I didn't know that.

And I think that's fine if the tech is locked behind at least 2 or 3 others, since their cheap units are mostly weaker than cost 2 in the late-game in terms of stats (with the exception of crusade cavalry, which I'd say is cost 2.5 in late-game, but is the rarest one among them, right?), and their costly units are mostly weaker than cost 3 at that point too (with the exception of crusade knight, which I'd say is cost 3.5, but is also the rarest one, right?)
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:04 am

b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm
Maybe a bit different, like +40% resistance instead of +20% hp, since they're crusaders?
Image
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm
Yeah, but I say that because imo they are already in a good state with their current maximum power (which is 8 + 2 (blacksmith) + 1 (morale) + 1 (fervor) + 1 (divine right) = 13 damage), so adding another +1 on top of that might leave them a little stronger than they probably should... Or maybe not, since it's possible that after Lord gets added, pavaise crossbow deployed might still have an edge over them in some somewhat specific cases.
Now that you mentioned - it would already be 14 with Holy Mission if both auras were to affect both.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm
So, wait. It's possible to change unit costs with techs?? I didn't know that.
I am still not sure - never tried.
But I can see two ways to do it - prop_changer tech and upgrade of the unit (Crusade Call is technically a unit).
Of course cost change is exclusive with buff tech.
I won't add both.
And I think that's fine if the tech is locked behind at least 2 or 3 others, since their cheap units are mostly weaker than cost 2 in the late-game in terms of stats (with the exception of crusade cavalry, which I'd say is cost 2.5 in late-game, but is the rarest one among them, right?), and their costly units are mostly weaker than cost 3 at that point too (with the exception of crusade knight, which I'd say is cost 3.5, but is also the rarest one, right?)
At the early game they are designed as 5 turn unit.
So yeah on they don't even reach capability of 4 turn late game unit (which is around capability of early game 6 turn unit).
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by b2198 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:00 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:04 am
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm
Maybe a bit different, like +40% resistance instead of +20% hp, since they're crusaders?
Image
Without the damage and armor? If so then...
Image
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:04 am
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm
Yeah, but I say that because imo they are already in a good state with their current maximum power (which is 8 + 2 (blacksmith) + 1 (morale) + 1 (fervor) + 1 (divine right) = 13 damage), so adding another +1 on top of that might leave them a little stronger than they probably should... Or maybe not, since it's possible that after Lord gets added, pavaise crossbow deployed might still have an edge over them in some somewhat specific cases.
Now that you mentioned - it would already be 14 with Holy Mission if both auras were to affect both.
Forgot about that. Maybe then reduce their base damage by 1 and allow this +2 (+1 compared to current) when all those auras are at play at the same time?
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:04 am
(Crusade Call is technically a unit)
Yeah, I have an old version of the JSONs, and saw those "units" that are used for random productions XD
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:04 am
And I think that's fine if the tech is locked behind at least 2 or 3 others, since their cheap units are mostly weaker than cost 2 in the late-game in terms of stats (with the exception of crusade cavalry, which I'd say is cost 2.5 in late-game, but is the rarest one among them, right?), and their costly units are mostly weaker than cost 3 at that point too (with the exception of crusade knight, which I'd say is cost 3.5, but is also the rarest one, right?)
At the early game they are designed as 5 turn unit.
So yeah on they don't even reach capability of 4 turn late game unit (which is around capability of early game 6 turn unit).
Yeah, they're strong early on, but only become really available later in the game, at which point they lose a lot of power. This could help them have moderate-strength units at a higher frequency than other factions in the mid-to-late game (and would help them even more now after the heavy mine nerf, since that weakened them a bit more than the others)
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:51 pm

b2198 wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:00 am
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:04 am
b2198 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:18 pm
Yeah, but I say that because imo they are already in a good state with their current maximum power (which is 8 + 2 (blacksmith) + 1 (morale) + 1 (fervor) + 1 (divine right) = 13 damage), so adding another +1 on top of that might leave them a little stronger than they probably should... Or maybe not, since it's possible that after Lord gets added, pavaise crossbow deployed might still have an edge over them in some somewhat specific cases.
Now that you mentioned - it would already be 14 with Holy Mission if both auras were to affect both.
Forgot about that. Maybe then reduce their base damage by 1 and allow this +2 (+1 compared to current) when all those auras are at play at the same time?
I think exluding ranged should be better.
From the other ones I mean, so Holy Mission would affect each [Flesh and blood][Crusader], [Flesh and blood][Melee][Religious] and Divine Right would affect [Flesh and blood][Religious], [Flesh and blood][Melee][Crusader]
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:04 am
And I think that's fine if the tech is locked behind at least 2 or 3 others, since their cheap units are mostly weaker than cost 2 in the late-game in terms of stats (with the exception of crusade cavalry, which I'd say is cost 2.5 in late-game, but is the rarest one among them, right?), and their costly units are mostly weaker than cost 3 at that point too (with the exception of crusade knight, which I'd say is cost 3.5, but is also the rarest one, right?)
At the early game they are designed as 5 turn unit.
So yeah on they don't even reach capability of 4 turn late game unit (which is around capability of early game 6 turn unit).
Yeah, they're strong early on, but only become really available later in the game, at which point they lose a lot of power. This could help them have moderate-strength units at a higher frequency than other factions in the mid-to-late game (and would help them even more now after the heavy mine nerf, since that weakened them a bit more than the others)
+20% hp and +40% res should change that somewhat.

And as for original idea of the topic - @Sombrar +1 - I think it could be OK to bring Crusade Call Limited or something, which would work exactly like normal one, but have no chance for elite versions.
So something like 25% chance for swordsman, 23% for horseman, 25% for spearman, 27% for archer.
Coming as average of 2.75 cost, as opposed to normal Crusade Call of 3.2 and pricier version of 3.98.
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Re: A few more crusaders produced in the city center

Post by Sombrar +1 » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:14 pm

Good, this will help them become more playable and still well balanced :)

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