Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

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b2198
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Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by b2198 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:24 am

And finally here I am, as promised. Again with another "sorry for making you read all that" type of post XD

note: This one might be complicated to solve, as most of the ideas I have would likely require code changes.

So, current situation is that conversion is... basically mandatory in almost every match where you're not facing a pure zerk spam. Inquisitors and senators are some of the most used units by players as far as I can see, and there is no real way of really protecting against them other than either using them back or using zerks (I will keep mentioning zerks throughout this post because they have uncomparably high mental resistance, but that doesn't necessarily means there's a problem with them that way, just that they're basically the only unit that's almost completely immune to conversion and demoralise).

Yeah, promote loyalty and fervor do exist, but it's not viable to promote loyalty of all your attacking units, so they will still have easy targets to turn on you, because if you try to do it, then either your attacking force will be very small (because only that small part of your army will be buffed), or you will have spent so many turns on leaders and supports that... well... your attacking force will be very small (assuming you don't get crushed beforehand for doing that), and fervor alone is not enough, because at 50% mental resistance your units are not really protected, and at 150% mental resistance if they are important enough in your attack they can get focused by the converters and still be taken down in 4-6 attempts in a single turn.

These are the points that make me think conversion is not in a healthy state (and some points on demoralise too):
  1. Similar to what I said regarding one-shots in the assassin topic, I think conversion is also an inherently unbalanced mechanic (and here it also has its "almost-one-shot" mechanic after the enemy researches loyalty, which is not as bad, but still problematic imo), but unlike the assassin case, this one interacts with the units' stats and has a lot more complexity to it, which is a significantly better way of handling it, so here my point is not about that. Instead, what makes me think the current concept should be changed, is because it's a random chance mechanic in a strategy game that has huge impacts on the outcome of battles, and that makes it so that way more matches are decided on a roll of a dice, instead of the actual strategies of the players. (demoralise is also on a random chance, but with an effect that, although strong, is much less so than conversion, and most of the time, when it can land, it will be almost, or even guaranteed to do so)
  2. Conversion is currently a tool that's too good against almost anything (but zerks, factories and megas/forts). Your opponent is coming with a horde of cavaliers? Conversion. An army of foot knights? Conversion. A fleet of frigates? Conversion. Siege towers? Conversion. Skirmishers? Conversion. You get the point.
  3. Units like Senator and Inquisitor are almost mandatory to have because of their effectiveness. Senators are so strong that people often make roman garrissons just to train them, without any regards to roman strategies and how they could synergize with them, because they aren't really tied to roman mechanics. And Inquisitor is a must have on almost every match, because of the VERY high range of conversion/demoralise
  4. There is no way of preventing non-[Flesh and Blood] units from getting converted/demoralised in a single turn, because they're not affected by promote loyalty nor fervor (though it's not really that big of an issue for demoralise now that it is affected by dismiss propaganda).
  5. Loyalty is not nearly good enough of a defense against conversion, since getting your unit almost one-shot and left to be finalized by a scout or random tower is still VERY strong. Even though it cuts conversion's effectiveness basically in half... so that also points towards its unhalved strength being op.
  6. If just directly nerfed, conversion will either still be very effective against high hp units that don't really need this big of a counter to be dealt with, like elephants*, while being not very effective against everything else, or, in the case where it is nerfed to the point of not being very effective against those units, it will be basically useless against everything else, and there wouldn't be a point where it'd be a viable choice.
    *... actually, especially elephants, because this is their biggest weakness right now, and is what makes them basically unviable to use.
And here are some ideas to improve it:
  • (Ideally requires code changes, but i think could be done partially with some heavy tweaking on the numbers) Implement GoK's idea from this other topic (which I chose not to revive with this post because this is one possible solution, but not the only one):
    godOfKings wrote:
    Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:56 pm
    All newly created units start of with a loyalty meter with 100 loyalty points (100 is maximum point)

    Every time unit gets damage loyalty point decreases by 5 (no matter the damage)
    Loyalty point cannot b less than 1 wen only gets damage

    If enemy healer tries to convert, spell possibility is the amount of loyalty point damaged, if loyalty point becomes 0 or less, unit joins enemy side but starts of with 1 point (so a priest with persuasion has 100% conversion after enemy gets attacked 6 times, but after converting unit is vulnerable to conversion by other enemy healers)

    If unit's loyalty point didn't get damaged previous turn it will increase by 10 points on current turn, this is calculated by comparing loyalty point of current turn with previous turn, if it is same it increases by 10, but it cannot increase more than 100

    If loyalty point is 1 on current turn it will become 11 next turn regardless the damage from attacks

    Spell resistance affects loyalty damage of healers using the same calculations currently used

    If loyalty tech is researched, HP of unit decreases instead of changing sides, but loyalty point still becomes 1

    Using this system healers can never miss, they simply deal a loyalty damage and convert wen loyalty point is 0

    An enemy player or ally player cannot see loyalty meter of Ur unit, only u can see it

    Its time to make conversion strategic instead of depending on chance, also it will become easier to convert back Ur unit if it was previously converted by enemy
  • (Not sure if would require code changes. Probably would, since if I'm not mistaken the conversion ability is hard-coded. Right?) Make loyalty cheaper and add a new tech that requires it, and makes it so that "successful conversions" permanently reduce a unit's maximum hp by a % + a flat amount (to make it similarly viable against a wide range of units). This would still leave the random element in though, which imo is a big downside.
  • (Maybe wouldn't require code changes, but might be confusing for players) Make conversion instead apply an effect, I'll call it A, that has a duration equal to the mental resistance percentage of the target + 1 and that converts the unit at the end of the duration, along with another one, that I'll call B, with a lower (4-10 turns maybe) duration than removes the first one at the end of the duration, and make it reduce A's duration by a large amount (would probably also require some heavy number tweakings similarly to the first idea), and make dismiss propaganda reduce the duration of B too. This one would also probably require some changes to demoralise, for it to not become too strong once again because of the "weak resistance" effect maybe making conversion too easy.
If you have any other ideas or disagree on some (or all) of my points please feel free to say it so that we can discuss what would work best in the game. Also, since this is a kinda big mechanic, I think @Stratego (dev) will also probably want to have a look into it, since it might change this part of the gameplay considerably.

And finally, I warned you, but sorry again for making you read all that XD
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am

A view from someone who does not know recent aos situation but has some knowledge about game, timeline and history.

I am against this conversion mechanic since it probably will be implemented in all games and for aof we do not need this mechanic for sure. Especially because even in plans there will be only 1 actual all round unit with convert-based ability — banshee.

As for topic — i have several questions:
1. Why convert has such large range? If we count 1 tile as 10x10 meters (at very least, it actually is probably much bigger due to tcs actual sizes) then range 4 is 40 meters. Can someone actually reach with words directly someone's ears at such huge range?
And there was mentioned that inquisitor has even higher range. How?! Does he use megaphone?!!
2. Another question is why convert is usable against literally everyone? Why romans can convert chinese/japanese units? Why inquisitor can convert Saracen, celts or tribal units? My thoughts is that converting attempts of non-own nation must have much less chance then converting units from own nation. Senator must not be able to convert with same effectiveness japanese units, elephants or savage units. Historically wise they used completely different languages and thus they must not be able to understand each other that easily.
3. Each leader of race might get an aura that in some range national units related to this leader will get "inconvertible" specification (1-2 range will be fine).
4. Last question — why loyalty tech works this way? Why in the first place it automatically reduces hp of even elephats down to 1 hp? I think it would be more proper to reduce hp with each success of unit with loyalty tech by fixed % per each attempt (maybe 20-40% of max hp).

My suggestions:
1. Reduce convert range to 2-3 fixed range.
2. Change convert to be nation-based — converting of your own nation will have like 30-50% chance while convert of non-own nation will be 10-15% chance (Mechanical units and ships are fine to be converted but i'd say for that you need not priests but engineers for mechanical units and pirates for boarding ships).
3. Leaders may have researchable auras which gives inconvertible specification in range 2 for non-leader nation units. Tech for that might be locked behind loyalty and unified or separate per each nation.
4. Loyalty tech must give as for me bonus mental resistance but it must not give full immunity to converting. Along with changes 1, 2 and 3 this might become much better.

And ofc this will require changes to demoralise effect as well.

Everything i suggest will not require literally any code changes from stratego side.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by b2198 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am

makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
A view from someone who does not know recent aos situation but has some knowledge about game, timeline and history.

I am against this conversion mechanic since it probably will be implemented in all games and for aof we do not need this mechanic for sure. Especially because even in plans there will be only 1 actual all round unit with convert-based ability — banshee.
I don't know the state of the other games in regards to conversion, but in AoS I believe it's there since way back then, so I'm not sure if it's something that's probably gonna be implemented in all of them, given that it hasn't until now afaik. If I had to guess I'd say it was implemented inspired by the way it works in AoE, where monks "wololo" units into your side after some time of trying to do so.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
1. Why convert has such large range? If we count 1 tile as 10x10 meters (at very least, it actually is probably much bigger due to tcs actual sizes) then range 4 is 40 meters. Can someone actually reach with words directly someone's ears at such huge range?
And there was mentioned that inquisitor has even higher range. How?! Does he use megaphone?!!
This one I think I the flavor behind it would be that it's because they are not yelling over that distance, but sending people over to talk and then return... or something like that. I'm not sure if the overall range should be nerfed, but the inquisitor one probably should (and maybe even that of senators, although it might be an overnerf for them).
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
2. Another question is why convert is usable against literally everyone? Why romans can convert chinese/japanese units? Why inquisitor can convert Saracen, celts or tribal units? My thoughts is that converting attempts of non-own nation must have much less chance then converting units from own nation. Senator must not be able to convert with same effectiveness japanese units, elephants or savage units. Historically wise they used completely different languages and thus they must not be able to understand each other that easily.
...Ok this one I can't answer flavor-wise-cally :sweat_smile:, but maybe works that way because that's the way it works in AoE, and it was implemented to work similarly?
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
3. Each leader of race might get an aura that in some range national units related to this leader will get "inconvertible" specification (1-2 range will be fine).
Imo I think "inconvertible" spec in aura would be way much, since it would be removing that mechanic entirely under those circumstances, and although (probably) rare, I am pretty sure leaders could get (and have been) betrayed by soldiers close to their influence.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
4. Last question — why loyalty tech works this way? Why in the first place it automatically reduces hp of even elephats down to 1 hp? I think it would be more proper to reduce hp with each success of unit with loyalty tech by fixed % per each attempt (maybe 20-40% of max hp).
I though about % hp at first, but that makes me think it will still remain stronger vs high hp units, so that's why I suggested a mix of % and flat hp, so that they would also be similarly good against many other units.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
My suggestions:
1. Reduce convert range to 2-3 fixed range.
2. Change convert to be nation-based — converting of your own nation will have like 30-50% chance while convert of non-own nation will be 10-15% chance (Mechanical units and ships are fine to be converted but i'd say for that you need not priests but engineers for mechanical units and pirates for boarding ships).
3. Leaders may have researchable auras which gives inconvertible specification in range 2 for non-leader nation units. Tech for that might be locked behind loyalty and unified or separate per each nation.
4. Loyalty tech must give as for me bonus mental resistance but it must not give full immunity to converting. Along with changes 1, 2 and 3 this might become much better.
1, 2 and 3 I replied above. 4 could be interesting too, but not really in isolation I think, so something else along with it would need to be changed.
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by makazuwr32 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:59 am

b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
A view from someone who does not know recent aos situation but has some knowledge about game, timeline and history.

I am against this conversion mechanic since it probably will be implemented in all games and for aof we do not need this mechanic for sure. Especially because even in plans there will be only 1 actual all round unit with convert-based ability — banshee.
I don't know the state of the other games in regards to conversion, but in AoS I believe it's there since way back then, so I'm not sure if it's something that's probably gonna be implemented in all of them, given that it hasn't until now afaik. If I had to guess I'd say it was implemented inspired by the way it works in AoE, where monks "wololo" units into your side after some time of trying to do so.
Why should we follow this logic then?
At base at very least.
We may make our own logic.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
1. Why convert has such large range? If we count 1 tile as 10x10 meters (at very least, it actually is probably much bigger due to tcs actual sizes) then range 4 is 40 meters. Can someone actually reach with words directly someone's ears at such huge range?
And there was mentioned that inquisitor has even higher range. How?! Does he use megaphone?!!
This one I think I the flavor behind it would be that it's because they are not yelling over that distance, but sending people over to talk and then return... or something like that. I'm not sure if the overall range should be nerfed, but the inquisitor one probably should (and maybe even that of senators, although it might be an overnerf for them).
Sending and return — then even more it must have lower range since otherwise those people are quite a good marathon runners. Or give them some rest after run via cooldown.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
2. Another question is why convert is usable against literally everyone? Why romans can convert chinese/japanese units? Why inquisitor can convert Saracen, celts or tribal units? My thoughts is that converting attempts of non-own nation must have much less chance then converting units from own nation. Senator must not be able to convert with same effectiveness japanese units, elephants or savage units. Historically wise they used completely different languages and thus they must not be able to understand each other that easily.
...Ok this one I can't answer flavor-wise-cally :sweat_smile:, but maybe works that way because that's the way it works in AoE, and it was implemented to work similarly?
I will quote myself:
Why should we follow this logic then?
At base at very least.
We may make our own logic.
For example IF we want to keep these cross culture converting we may give for each unit with convert 2 abilities — first ability (convert countryman) that works against own culture with high chance and main tech for converting affects this chance to convert and second ability (convert foreigner) that works against foreign cultures with lower chance and with separate tier 2 tech for converting improvement and with lower range.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
3. Each leader of race might get an aura that in some range national units related to this leader will get "inconvertible" specification (1-2 range will be fine).
Imo I think "inconvertible" spec in aura would be way much, since it would be removing that mechanic entirely under those circumstances, and although (probably) rare, I am pretty sure leaders could get (and have been) betrayed by soldiers close to their influence.
We may implement it only in range 1 around leader and it will not affect leader himself or other leaders so you can just convert leader and get rid of that aura. It also will work only on units from same nation, so centurion will not be able to provide convert immunity to elephants or samurais.
Or it might be not an actual aura but an ability for leader units with range 1-2, 1-2 turns duration and 4+ turns cooldown. It might even be an actual aura again but with duration (you activate ability, get an aura for x turns and profit).

How to balance it is second question.

Upd.:
Idea for activable aura of convert immunity.
If we will agree on activable aura than when you fail to convert leader with activated aura and apply demoralize effect you also reduce duration of aura.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
4. Last question — why loyalty tech works this way? Why in the first place it automatically reduces hp of even elephats down to 1 hp? I think it would be more proper to reduce hp with each success of unit with loyalty tech by fixed % per each attempt (maybe 20-40% of max hp).
I though about % hp at first, but that makes me think it will still remain stronger vs high hp units, so that's why I suggested a mix of % and flat hp, so that they would also be similarly good against many other units.
I'd say if it is possible for convert to work this way i am only for it with both my hands.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by DreJaDe » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:34 pm

makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
1. Why convert has such large range? If we count 1 tile as 10x10 meters (at very least, it actually is probably much bigger due to tcs actual sizes) then range 4 is 40 meters. Can someone actually reach with words directly someone's ears at such huge range?
And there was mentioned that inquisitor has even higher range. How?! Does he use megaphone?!!
Just like how aof can explain all it's shenanigans with "fantasy". This game can also pretty much do the same with time. Like a turn here can be translated to hours, days, weel, month and even at max a year.

This is really not just simply trying to talk them out or anything like that also as one unit can also mean one army. It can be payment or pretty much anything to convert them.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
2. Another question is why convert is usable against literally everyone? Why romans can convert chinese/japanese units? Why inquisitor can convert Saracen, celts or tribal units? My thoughts is that converting attempts of non-own nation must have much less chance then converting units from own nation. Senator must not be able to convert with same effectiveness japanese units, elephants or savage units. Historically wise they used completely different languages and thus they must not be able to understand each other that easily.
In our country, we have what we call moro-moro. A real life event where Christians and Muslims plays this conversion game to convert each other. And there are many examples of this like in over the world like how the Philippines is almost getting converted to Islam yet dominated by Christians today, the Japanese which almost turned into Christians before banning it and the Americas being mostly Christians today.

And for the game... Doesn't this suggestion require engine changes?
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
1. Reduce convert range to 2-3 fixed range.
This is a super hard nerf to say the least.

As for my own thoughts. I myself is of the opinion that leader units should get a fervor aura that increases mind resistance rather than nerfing the convert itself.

Another one is to make the anti-conversion much stackable.

Also, im honestly against the concept of loyalty tech but didn't tell anything cause I like to abuse it against other plays who thinks it's good... Sry.

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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm

b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:24 am
  • (Not sure if would require code changes. Probably would, since if I'm not mistaken the conversion ability is hard-coded. Right?) Make loyalty cheaper and add a new tech that requires it, and makes it so that "successful conversions" permanently reduce a unit's maximum hp by a % + a flat amount (to make it similarly viable against a wide range of units). This would still leave the random element in though, which imo is a big downside.
  • (Maybe wouldn't require code changes, but might be confusing for players) Make conversion instead apply an effect, I'll call it A, that has a duration equal to the mental resistance percentage of the target + 1 and that converts the unit at the end of the duration, along with another one, that I'll call B, with a lower (4-10 turns maybe) duration than removes the first one at the end of the duration, and make it reduce A's duration by a large amount (would probably also require some heavy number tweakings similarly to the first idea), and make dismiss propaganda reduce the duration of B too. This one would also probably require some changes to demoralise, for it to not become too strong once again because of the "weak resistance" effect maybe making conversion too easy.
Conversion is hardcoded system special.
It can be selected to be the result of an effect.
On effect itself only some things can be set:
- range addition
- basic chance
- lasting
- cooldown
- behaviour from a set of hardcoded behaviours (instant, repeating, aura, triggered etc.)
- target from a set of hardcoded targets (self, enemy, ally)
- system special from a set of hardcoded system specials (default, convert, heal, summon, transform, area effect, castable on selected list of effects changing their lasting and similarly for effects cooldown)
- effect affect (selected unit stats or specs applied to target) on success, separately on failure and separately on self
- some effect specs
The only things that can change during game are:
- range (unless effect had spec IS_EFFECT_RANGE_ABSOLUTE) by modifying ability range unit parameter (or unit attack range if effect has IS_EFFECT_RANGE_IS_RANGE_ATTACK spec)
- chance by modifying unit ability chance parameter
- lasting and cooldown by other effects specials
- power (multiplier/addition by attack or ability power applied to all effect affects )
- being casted more times at once (exactly multiplied by unit ability power, attack or hp)

So effect converting at the end of duration is possible, but not it's lasting changed by resitance (which would be great for AoF if there was a spec for effects to have lasting reduced by resistance).
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:59 am
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
A view from someone who does not know recent aos situation but has some knowledge about game, timeline and history.

I am against this conversion mechanic since it probably will be implemented in all games and for aof we do not need this mechanic for sure. Especially because even in plans there will be only 1 actual all round unit with convert-based ability — banshee.
I don't know the state of the other games in regards to conversion, but in AoS I believe it's there since way back then, so I'm not sure if it's something that's probably gonna be implemented in all of them, given that it hasn't until now afaik. If I had to guess I'd say it was implemented inspired by the way it works in AoE, where monks "wololo" units into your side after some time of trying to do so.
Why should we follow this logic then?
At base at very least.
We may make our own logic.
Not entirely.
We make whatever is agreed by Stratego and from what I have gotten from conversations - conversion has to exist and be useful.
Probably it cannot be changed too much, as wagon example showed.
In general main idea is from AoE, especially AoK, but specific implementation, that became a core of the game has to be discussed before and probably has very low chance to be changed.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:43 am
1. Why convert has such large range? If we count 1 tile as 10x10 meters (at very least, it actually is probably much bigger due to tcs actual sizes) then range 4 is 40 meters. Can someone actually reach with words directly someone's ears at such huge range?
And there was mentioned that inquisitor has even higher range. How?! Does he use megaphone?!!
1 tile can be as little as 4-8 meters, but 4 tiles something around 25-40 meters.
It gets really crazy at higher values, where:
5 ~ 60-90m
6 ~ 130-160m
7 ~ 200m
8 ~ 240-270m
9 ~ 300-350m
10 ~ 400-500m
11 ~ 600-750m
12 ~ 1000-1500m
13 ~ 2000-3000m
14 more than 5000m
Non-linear scale.

Even if they were shouting - human male voice can be heard from shouting at the distance of 180m (according to google "how far can shout be hard at"), so around 6-7 range.
Plus as mentioned:
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
This one I think I the flavor behind it would be that it's because they are not yelling over that distance, but sending people over to talk and then return... or something like that.
That is possible too.
makazuwr32 wrote: Sending and return — then even more it must have lower range since otherwise those people are quite a good marathon runners. Or give them some rest after run via cooldown.
That's actually valid explanation, except - your send people don't even have to return, as they don't necessarily have to be yours.
DreJaDe wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:34 pm
Just like how aof can explain all it's shenanigans with "fantasy". This game can also pretty much do the same with time. Like a turn here can be translated to hours, days, weel, month and even at max a year.

This is really not just simply trying to talk them out or anything like that also as one unit can also mean one army. It can be payment or pretty much anything to convert them.
Exactly. Conversion is representing overall power of propaganda - religious, political, financial - any possible way, that could make a unit of people start working for our side.
So range is just for balance here.
makazuwr32 wrote: 1. Reduce convert range to 2-3 fixed range.
And such range would make it useless, unless heavy changes would follow for converters.
makazuwr32 wrote: 2. Another question is why convert is usable against literally everyone? Why romans can convert chinese/japanese units? Why inquisitor can convert Saracen, celts or tribal units? My thoughts is that converting attempts of non-own nation must have much less chance then converting units from own nation. Senator must not be able to convert with same effectiveness japanese units, elephants or savage units. Historically wise they used completely different languages and thus they must not be able to understand each other that easily.
That I could agree - trying to influence people from outside your cultural group is always harder.
DreJaDe wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:34 pm
In our country, we have what we call moro-moro. A real life event where Christians and Muslims plays this conversion game to convert each other. And there are many examples of this like in over the world like how the Philippines is almost getting converted to Islam yet dominated by Christians today, the Japanese which almost turned into Christians before banning it and the Americas being mostly Christians today.
That's still under the same culture.
Religion can be changed, but trying to take command over people despite cultural barrier is harder.
DreJaDe wrote: And for the game... Doesn't this suggestion require engine changes?
By making multiple specific effects and units - no engine change needed.
makazuwr32 wrote: 2. Change convert to be nation-based — converting of your own nation will have like 30-50% chance while convert of non-own nation will be 10-15% chance (Mechanical units and ships are fine to be converted but i'd say for that you need not priests but engineers for mechanical units and pirates for boarding ships).
But where exactly would priests stand in?
They are core units - they don't represent any culture.
And I really don't like to make special, separated priests for all cultures.
Too much work. Or too boring effect.
makazuwr32 wrote: 3. Each leader of race might get an aura that in some range national units related to this leader will get "inconvertible" specification (1-2 range will be fine).
makazuwr32 wrote: We may implement it only in range 1 around leader and it will not affect leader himself or other leaders so you can just convert leader and get rid of that aura. It also will work only on units from same nation, so centurion will not be able to provide convert immunity to elephants or samurais.
Interesting idea, but too strong.
Having a siege tower with 1 cultural unit and some support unit would be inconvertible.
E.g. 2 siege towers with 1 cultural unit and 1 leader would make conversion 100% useless.
makazuwr32 wrote: Upd.:
Idea for activable aura of convert immunity.
If we will agree on activable aura than when you fail to convert leader with activated aura and apply demoralize effect you also reduce duration of aura.
It could work if there was something like aura affecting only units outside carriers.
Otherwise 100% mental resistance is much better (and can be strengthened by promote loyalty).
makazuwr32 wrote: Or it might be not an actual aura but an ability for leader units with range 1-2, 1-2 turns duration and 4+ turns cooldown.
That could work much better
makazuwr32 wrote: 4. Last question — why loyalty tech works this way? Why in the first place it automatically reduces hp of even elephats down to 1 hp? I think it would be more proper to reduce hp with each success of unit with loyalty tech by fixed % per each attempt (maybe 20-40% of max hp).
That is the question for stratego.
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 7:42 am
I though about % hp at first, but that makes me think it will still remain stronger vs high hp units, so that's why I suggested a mix of % and flat hp, so that they would also be similarly good against many other units.
makazuwr32 wrote: I'd say if it is possible for convert to work this way i am only for it with both my hands.
I also don't like any effect/ability that works in totally hardcoded way.
It would be much better (and allow for few more diverse techs) if engine would have something like:
- trigger BEFORE_EFFECT_SUCCESS with specified group or list of effects
- STOP_EFFECT_EXECUTION effect
as related tech anything could be added - something like straight damage, some debuff or percentage of hp.
makazuwr32 wrote: 4. Loyalty tech must give as for me bonus mental resistance but it must not give full immunity to converting. Along with changes 1, 2 and 3 this might become much better.

And ofc this will require changes to demoralise effect as well.

Everything i suggest will not require literally any code changes from stratego side.
Straight 100% resistance could work, but not sure if it wouldn't be too weak in some cases.
Or too strong.
Especially if tweaked number to something higher.
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by b2198 » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:20 pm

What about the first idea, to remove rng entirely by tweaking the numbers? Would take a considerable effort, since basically all units would have to be changed, but imo is worth it, and along with some other small changes could improve conversion both for the player that's using it and for the one on its receiving end.

An example of how it could work is doing these steps:
  1. Change all mental resistance values to be multiples of 50%
  2. Change all increases of mental resistance (by promote loyalty or fervor, for example) to be multiples of 50%
  3. Change all conversion abilities to have 200% chance (I would actually make it 201% to prevent floating point shenanigans)
  4. Change amount of resistance decreased by a failed attempt to 100%
  5. (This one I'm not sure if is possible without code changes) Change Persuasion tech so that it instead increases the resistance decreased to 150%.
This way everytime the final chance of conversion would be above 0%, it would be guaranteed.

For example, let's say a hoplite has 400% mental resistance in this new system. It would be a guaranteed conversion on the 5th try without Persuasion, and on the 4th with it. Then let's say fervor gives +100% resistance in this system. That same hoplite would be converted after 6 attempts without Persuasion, and still 4 with it (because 50% of 200% is 100%). Now with +100% more from promote loyalty, and it would increase to 7/5 attempts without/with Persuasion.

Not sure what to do with demoralise in this situation though. Maybe making it guaranteed regardless of resistance but not allowing it to stack could work?
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by makazuwr32 » Fri Jul 29, 2022 3:51 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: 2. Change convert to be nation-based — converting of your own nation will have like 30-50% chance while convert of non-own nation will be 10-15% chance (Mechanical units and ships are fine to be converted but i'd say for that you need not priests but engineers for mechanical units and pirates for boarding ships).
But where exactly would priests stand in?
They are core units - they don't represent any culture.
And I really don't like to make special, separated priests for all cultures.
Too much work. Or too boring effect.
Basic priests would be able to convert with higher chance basic units and will have convert foreigners with reduced chance to convert cultural units.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: 3. Each leader of race might get an aura that in some range national units related to this leader will get "inconvertible" specification (1-2 range will be fine).
makazuwr32 wrote: We may implement it only in range 1 around leader and it will not affect leader himself or other leaders so you can just convert leader and get rid of that aura. It also will work only on units from same nation, so centurion will not be able to provide convert immunity to elephants or samurais.
Interesting idea, but too strong.
Having a siege tower with 1 cultural unit and some support unit would be inconvertible.
E.g. 2 siege towers with 1 cultural unit and 1 leader would make conversion 100% useless.
makazuwr32 wrote: Upd.:
Idea for activable aura of convert immunity.
If we will agree on activable aura than when you fail to convert leader with activated aura and apply demoralize effect you also reduce duration of aura.
It could work if there was something like aura affecting only units outside carriers.
Otherwise 100% mental resistance is much better (and can be strengthened by promote loyalty).
makazuwr32 wrote: Or it might be not an actual aura but an ability for leader units with range 1-2, 1-2 turns duration and 4+ turns cooldown.
That could work much better
makazuwr32 wrote:
I am thinking about aura still.
You will have an ability that activates for 1-2 turns aura with range 1 that gives inconvertible specification and will have 6-8 turns cooldown. This way it will not be too powerful.
makazuwr32 wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 am
When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by b2198 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:33 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
Conversion is hardcoded system special.
It can be selected to be the result of an effect.
On effect itself only some things can be set:
- range addition
- basic chance
- lasting
- cooldown
- behaviour from a set of hardcoded behaviours (instant, repeating, aura, triggered etc.)
- target from a set of hardcoded targets (self, enemy, ally)
- system special from a set of hardcoded system specials (default, convert, heal, summon, transform, area effect, castable on selected list of effects changing their lasting and similarly for effects cooldown)
- effect affect (selected unit stats or specs applied to target) on success, separately on failure and separately on self
- some effect specs
The only things that can change during game are:
- range (unless effect had spec IS_EFFECT_RANGE_ABSOLUTE) by modifying ability range unit parameter (or unit attack range if effect has IS_EFFECT_RANGE_IS_RANGE_ATTACK spec)
- chance by modifying unit ability chance parameter
- lasting and cooldown by other effects specials
- power (multiplier/addition by attack or ability power applied to all effect affects )
- being casted more times at once (exactly multiplied by unit ability power, attack or hp)

So effect converting at the end of duration is possible, but not it's lasting changed by resitance (which would be great for AoF if there was a spec for effects to have lasting reduced by resistance).
Got it. Thanks for the info too.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: 2. Another question is why convert is usable against literally everyone? Why romans can convert chinese/japanese units? Why inquisitor can convert Saracen, celts or tribal units? My thoughts is that converting attempts of non-own nation must have much less chance then converting units from own nation. Senator must not be able to convert with same effectiveness japanese units, elephants or savage units. Historically wise they used completely different languages and thus they must not be able to understand each other that easily.
That I could agree - trying to influence people from outside your cultural group is always harder.
Yeah, though I wonder if that would incentivize way too much "countering fire with fire", since that's already the case with inquisitor (primarily because of the Excommunicatio ability making an inquisitor basically disable the enemy one for 4 turns).
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: 3. Each leader of race might get an aura that in some range national units related to this leader will get "inconvertible" specification (1-2 range will be fine).
makazuwr32 wrote: We may implement it only in range 1 around leader and it will not affect leader himself or other leaders so you can just convert leader and get rid of that aura. It also will work only on units from same nation, so centurion will not be able to provide convert immunity to elephants or samurais.
Interesting idea, but too strong.
Having a siege tower with 1 cultural unit and some support unit would be inconvertible.
E.g. 2 siege towers with 1 cultural unit and 1 leader would make conversion 100% useless.
Yeah, I agree. Also on that note, for converting carriers, does it sum the resistances of all units inside and that of the carrier itself? I remember reading something similar to that in an AoF discussion somewhere, but don't know if that's also the case for conversion.
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: Or it might be not an actual aura but an ability for leader units with range 1-2, 1-2 turns duration and 4+ turns cooldown.
That could work much better
Maybe something like that for the religious leaders when you're doing the big additions to leaders?
Endru1241 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:37 pm
makazuwr32 wrote: 4. Loyalty tech must give as for me bonus mental resistance but it must not give full immunity to converting. Along with changes 1, 2 and 3 this might become much better.

And ofc this will require changes to demoralise effect as well.

Everything i suggest will not require literally any code changes from stratego side.
Straight 100% resistance could work, but not sure if it wouldn't be too weak in some cases.
Or too strong.
Especially if tweaked number to something higher.
Yeah, would benefit way more units that already have high resistance, and I'd say in most cases where conversion is involved it would be worse for units with low/zero resistance.
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by b2198 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:36 am

b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:20 pm
What about the first idea, to remove rng entirely by tweaking the numbers? Would take a considerable effort, since basically all units would have to be changed, but imo is worth it, and along with some other small changes could improve conversion both for the player that's using it and for the one on its receiving end.

An example of how it could work is doing these steps:
  1. Change all mental resistance values to be multiples of 50%
  2. Change all increases of mental resistance (by promote loyalty or fervor, for example) to be multiples of 50%
  3. Change all conversion abilities to have 200% chance (I would actually make it 201% to prevent floating point shenanigans)
  4. Change amount of resistance decreased by a failed attempt to 100%
  5. (This one I'm not sure if is possible without code changes) Change Persuasion tech so that it instead increases the resistance decreased to 150%.
This way everytime the final chance of conversion would be above 0%, it would be guaranteed.

For example, let's say a hoplite has 400% mental resistance in this new system. It would be a guaranteed conversion on the 5th try without Persuasion, and on the 4th with it. Then let's say fervor gives +100% resistance in this system. That same hoplite would be converted after 6 attempts without Persuasion, and still 4 with it (because 50% of 200% is 100%). Now with +100% more from promote loyalty, and it would increase to 7/5 attempts without/with Persuasion.

Not sure what to do with demoralise in this situation though. Maybe making it guaranteed regardless of resistance but not allowing it to stack could work?
Would something like this be doable though? At least by removing the rng in it it would already get way better in smaller maps, and winning in them will be much less of a dice roll on whether your opponent is rushing healers/missionaries/senators/inquisitor or anything else
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by Endru1241 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:33 pm

b2198 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:36 am
b2198 wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:20 pm
What about the first idea, to remove rng entirely by tweaking the numbers? Would take a considerable effort, since basically all units would have to be changed, but imo is worth it, and along with some other small changes could improve conversion both for the player that's using it and for the one on its receiving end.

An example of how it could work is doing these steps:
  1. Change all mental resistance values to be multiples of 50%
  2. Change all increases of mental resistance (by promote loyalty or fervor, for example) to be multiples of 50%
  3. Change all conversion abilities to have 200% chance (I would actually make it 201% to prevent floating point shenanigans)
  4. Change amount of resistance decreased by a failed attempt to 100%
  5. (This one I'm not sure if is possible without code changes) Change Persuasion tech so that it instead increases the resistance decreased to 150%.
This way everytime the final chance of conversion would be above 0%, it would be guaranteed.

For example, let's say a hoplite has 400% mental resistance in this new system. It would be a guaranteed conversion on the 5th try without Persuasion, and on the 4th with it. Then let's say fervor gives +100% resistance in this system. That same hoplite would be converted after 6 attempts without Persuasion, and still 4 with it (because 50% of 200% is 100%). Now with +100% more from promote loyalty, and it would increase to 7/5 attempts without/with Persuasion.

Not sure what to do with demoralise in this situation though. Maybe making it guaranteed regardless of resistance but not allowing it to stack could work?
Would something like this be doable though? At least by removing the rng in it it would already get way better in smaller maps, and winning in them will be much less of a dice roll on whether your opponent is rushing healers/missionaries/senators/inquisitor or anything else
First of all - if we tried to change it to non-chance a lot of campaign maps would have to be changed too.
At the very least - their turn to get stars.

Persuasion could replace whole conversion effect with one having higher - res attached, so it should be possible.
Using ability power of units to have different values of -lower resistance is possible too.
E.g. if basic conversion chance was set as 1000%, then 10% is lowest multiplier.
The problem comes with trying to balance it all out.
With your example we would have to set all units normally with 0% to have 200% resistance, so that basic 35% chance would become sure conversion in 3 turns.
Then with persuasion -150%, 50% units would be converted for sure, so 200% would in total of 2 turns.
Almost perfect translation of 35% and 50% chance.
But what about high priest or anything with higher chance?
70% chance compared to 50% chance would translate to having 1.4 of lower resistance value?
-210% would have to be reduced to -200% to follow rules.
-200% may seem like much better, than -150%, but really against all those units having previously 0% resistance, there is no difference.
And 5/10 vs 7/10 chance to convert it in first turn is quite big.

Giving multiple actions would mess with heal, adding another huge ting to balance.

I simply wonder if it's worth such work-heavy solution.
Plus the change is so big, that Stratego must agree to it.

Honestly I thought more people would give their opinion here.
Yeah, I agree. Also on that note, for converting carriers, does it sum the resistances of all units inside and that of the carrier itself? I remember reading something similar to that in an AoF discussion somewhere, but don't know if that's also the case for conversion.
Yup - sum of all.
Maybe something like that for the religious leaders when you're doing the big additions to leaders?
It's true, that religious units probably deserve some higher resistance, but other cultural groups should get something too.
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by b2198 » Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:36 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:33 pm
First of all - if we tried to change it to non-chance a lot of campaign maps would have to be changed too.
At the very least - their turn to get stars.

Persuasion could replace whole conversion effect with one having higher - res attached, so it should be possible.
Using ability power of units to have different values of -lower resistance is possible too.
E.g. if basic conversion chance was set as 1000%, then 10% is lowest multiplier.
The problem comes with trying to balance it all out.
With your example we would have to set all units normally with 0% to have 200% resistance, so that basic 35% chance would become sure conversion in 3 turns.
Then with persuasion -150%, 50% units would be converted for sure, so 200% would in total of 2 turns.
Almost perfect translation of 35% and 50% chance.
But what about high priest or anything with higher chance?
70% chance compared to 50% chance would translate to having 1.4 of lower resistance value?
-210% would have to be reduced to -200% to follow rules.
-200% may seem like much better, than -150%, but really against all those units having previously 0% resistance, there is no difference.
And 5/10 vs 7/10 chance to convert it in first turn is quite big.

Giving multiple actions would mess with heal, adding another huge ting to balance.

I simply wonder if it's worth such work-heavy solution.
Plus the change is so big, that Stratego must agree to it.
I think it is definitely worth it, but yeah, there would be A LOT of work to do for this to be implemented, and would change the game considerably, so I also agree on requiring Stratego's decision for it.

Also...
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:33 pm
Honestly I thought more people would give their opinion here.
Honestly, me too, especially considering how big of a mechanic conversion is and since it's THE meta right now.

Not sure why the AoS parts of the forums are this empty recently, the multiplayer chat is as active as always : /
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:33 pm
Yeah, I agree. Also on that note, for converting carriers, does it sum the resistances of all units inside and that of the carrier itself? I remember reading something similar to that in an AoF discussion somewhere, but don't know if that's also the case for conversion.
Yup - sum of all.
Nice, that explains some situations I got. Will keep that in mind for future matches.
Endru1241 wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 1:33 pm
Maybe something like that for the religious leaders when you're doing the big additions to leaders?
It's true, that religious units probably deserve some higher resistance, but other cultural groups should get something too.
Yeah, I agree.
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Re: Conversion rework/rebalance ideas (also a bit about demoralise)

Post by godOfKings » Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:14 pm

sry for not being so active here, but most of the huge load of info is simply going over my head unfortunately :lol:, and there is also no easy solution to this problem so i m refraining from giving my view for now until the rest of u comes to an agreement first

from my personal experience i can only add that while demoralise makes it really op and ez to convert enemy units, on the other hand without demoralise it is really hard to win with conversion based playstyle agaisnt other playstyle as i so horribly lost to pheonix b4 senator update that i unconsciously removed conversion based playstyle from my list of possible playstyles
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