tc rooster rework

Put here any ideas, suggestions about unit or structure properties.
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Endru1241
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tc roster

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:10 am

To be honest - I think tc roster needs to be reviewed and changed.
Mainly because I want to decrease the number of options a little.
And in the same time - make buildings similarly needed.

Let me present some details of what could be included and excluded:
- all non-war utility units stays the same (transports, valueables)
- builders stay the same - unique to tc
- at least one of each main category, but as basic as possible
- basic counters for main units
- no main units strong "on it's own", so among those cheap for its category - should need the construction and usage (e.g. research from) of specific factories
- possibly basic units of various cultures, as long as they don't break previous rule

So basically the idea is that any army produced from tc can be overpowered by same cost army, but produced exclusively by (or with support of) other factories, unless not
Of course factories could have filler units, that are only added to increase variety or utility, so not all factory specific units have to be better, but generally factories should allow better army than pure tc.

But I am not sure hastati fits what I want to be prodiced there.
It can be promoted and utilise most of it's strength without any need for roman garrison.

As I found out, that buildings can be used as requirements - maybe hastati will just require at least 1 build roman garrison?
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Re: Hastati available in Barracks.

Post by DreJaDe » Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:44 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:10 am

- no main units strong "on it's own", so among those cheap for its category - should need the construction and usage (e.g. research from) of specific factories
- possibly basic units of various cultures, as long as they don't break previous rule
So basically, the 2 turn units would stay in the tc? Not sure I understand.

That's actually a good idea.

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Re: Hastati available in Barracks.

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:36 am

Not necessarily 2 turn.
Knights are also considered basic, core.

Because among heavy cavalry knights are main representative.

The main point here is what not to put - I want to leave some units unique to specific factories, some requiring a tech or construction of factory and only bare minimum normally in tc from the start.
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Re: Hastati available in Barracks.

Post by makazuwr32 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:04 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:10 am
- builders stay the same - unique to tc
I'd say they might be also available in blacksmith and advancement center.
makazuwr32 wrote:
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When you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Hastati available in Barracks.

Post by DreJaDe » Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:15 pm

That's definitely a no.

Worker supremacy strats are going to be a thing again if that's the case. I mean, they are kinda still but not as much.

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Re: Hastati available in Barracks.

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:44 pm

Yeah - I also want to limit workers like they are.
And not bring any new builders, upgrades, techs, that would increase mend or mend affect on units.

For blacksmith and advancement center I'd like two support units each- one cheap and one pricy - a lot better, but still not as good per cost as normal ones.
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Re: Hastati available in Barracks.

Post by L4cus » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:09 pm

i see tc rooster rework needs a new topic jeje
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tc rooster rework

Post by L4cus » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:31 pm

First at all the current list of units/techs aviable in tcs:

UNITS
skirmisher
archer
roman sagittarius*
slinger
longbowman**
hospitaller*
poison archer**
fire archer**
ranger**
genoese crossbowman***
cretan archer***
balearic slinger***
horse archer
skirmisher horseman**
horse crossbowman**
mongolian horseman*
chariot archer
elephant archer**

spearman
pikeman
voulgier*
hospitaller halberdier*
mercenary billman***
strelet*
celtic warrior*
flail soldier**
gaelic fighter*
swordman
maceman**
zweihander**
samurai*
axe thrower*
varangian*
thracian falxman***
shielder
templar*
spartan hoplite*
foot knight**
roman legionary*
roman praetorian*
gallowglass*
jaguar warrior*
enforcer***
mercenary foot knight***
guerrilla
maori warrior*
berserker*
highlander*
banner bearer
net thrower**
battlefield blacksmith*
eagle warrior*
corsair*
ninja*
assassin
spy

light cavalry
knight
chariot
lancer
hussar**
hungarian hussar**
sipahi*
shield knight
elephant**
centurion*
condottiero***

monk*
priest
missionary
bishop*
herbalist
druid*

ballista
ram
catapult
turtle machine

caravel**
galley
trireme
balista ship
catapult ship
cannon ship
mend ship

ornithoper

roman aenator*
drummer
worker
laborer
miner
wagon
rowboat
transport ship
big transport ship
tresurer
peasant
scout dog
flying scout

+easter eggs

TECHS:
fortified town
writing
ballistic
machinery
flying
ambidexterity
town patrol
tight fabric
massonry
area damage
persuasion
boarding effectiveness**
stealing
garrisoned keep
elite scout


* : from a faction
** : not from a faction but not generic either
*** : mercenary
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by Endru1241 » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:15 pm

Split and merged.

About the list:
Wow it is huge (that's what she said :D ).
It looks like it really needs some clearing.

And just small information filling - both hussars, herbalist, flailman are gonna be a faction.
Probably the same one, with a little struggle if hungarians should be in slavic culture (magyars came with their cultural elements and language, but most common traditions were kept slavic, just like general population).

Caravel is a counter for boarding ships, so it may need the placement or I'll put cheaper one here (Dromon scout - same bonuses and power, but melee range only).
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by Stratego (dev) » Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:18 pm

i coulnd not read tru but for AI it must be careful - talk in email please.

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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:08 pm

Yeah, I'm on-board with this, makes sense and it will add extra depth and importance to choices and planning, and the strats and plays that follow. Obviously though, with TCs making up almost half of output we need to ensure there are enough viable options for various playthroughs or we would slide back to worker dominated plays, spam attacks, or even worse, homogenised armies! And for end game population limit managing I think we definitely need to retain some high cost units. Careful thought required.

Yeah, that list is big. Too big. Let's look at groups...

Leaders - imo should not be on TC roster, better they be faction factory specific, and probably castle too (see castle roster rebalance thread http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic. ... er#p130563). That's two less (Centurion and Condottiero).

Mercs - what to do here? My thoughts lean towards banishing all mercs to their respective factories (with the future possibility of a merc specific factory). That's an obvious clean up.

Elites / Specialists - do they have a place here? Again, I think not. Again, just my opinion, but these would include Ranger, strelet, sipahi, Bishop and most especially, (that favourite unit of all unimaginative strategists) the berserker.
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Re: Hastati available in Barracks.

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Tue Nov 09, 2021 9:57 pm

Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:36 am

The main point here is what not to put - I want to leave some units unique to specific factories, some requiring a tech or construction of factory and only bare minimum normally in tc from the start.
Yeah, more units locked behind techs like Marian Reforms is a good idea. Requiring construction of factories I like too. Is it possible to level this with unit cost? eg 1 existing Celtic Roundhouse gives access to gaelic fighter and celtic warrior from TC, 2 Roundhouses allow recruitment of Highlander and Gallowglass?
Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 1:44 pm

For blacksmith and advancement center I'd like two support units each- one cheap and one pricy - a lot better, but still not as good per cost as normal ones.
Again, interesting ideas. We already have an embryonic suggestion for a squire (http://www.ageofstrategy.net/viewtopic.php?f=79&t=11836) that in theory could do well for second blacksmith support unit, pending agreement on its exact role and stats. Do you have anything in mind for AC support units, Endru? Presumably something specific to researches and advancement? Atm all I can think of is something like a scholar or alchemist that can speed up techs with his research or experiments, but this unfortunately is no different in effect to a mine cart.
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by DreJaDe » Tue Nov 09, 2021 11:07 pm

I want to disagree.

I'm actually in the opinion of Leaders being in the TC. Moving them all to a specific factory would just make them more expensive and just reducing their cost on the factory itself wouldn't really cut it.

Lore wise, a tc is like the main city. Leaders should be able to train in there unlike factories which are like levy or some sort where you gather your main troops from.

(•A fantasy•
Though since there would be a roster change. What if leaders would be like Coolguy though not as limited? There could be like the main city like in AOE where they can just be trained. Then their limit would be based on how many your mega is?)

For the mercenary. I think the writing is enough and the current one can stay. Honestly, their utility will be outdone after some time anyway. Making them more unavailable would just lessen their use. I like the current meta behind them.

Not sure about the elites but I do kinda agree. Don't see much of a problem but I also think there can be a better way for them the current.

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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by Endru1241 » Wed Nov 10, 2021 1:31 am

Requirements is only a list.
So I guess engine only checks if unit is present.
In case of tech, which requirements were designed for - it couldn't be any other way, as tech never disappear and can only be one of each.

Custom lmits are impossible currently.
I made a request for engine change in that regard, but I don't have much hopes, seeing how busy stratego is.

Advancements Center units, that I have in mind are science related buffers or debuffers for units. Or one of them could be wholly or additionally capable of some stealth, anti-stealth, vision or healing.
No production boosts.
Maybe something like alchemist (topic proposition already exists).
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am

Back to the topic.

My initial plan is to:
- add Nordic Warlord, Celtic Chieftain and Crusade Leader, but making all leaders require respective factories first
- remove culture specific buffers: Bishop, Druid
- remove some more special units: Berserker, Gallowglass, Gaelic Fighter, Roman Aeanator, Strelet, Sipahi

More generally - most important is this point:
Endru1241 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 9:10 am
- no main units strong "on it's own", so among those cheap for its category - should need the construction and usage (e.g. research from) of specific factories
And also we could clear some units from TC to increase reason of existence for various factories after research.
Or just make them a requirement.



What I only think about (and need an opinion) would be a little more extreme :
- Samurai requiring Dojo (or moving completely to Dojo if two-attack infantry could be added instead)
- Zweihander requiring Barracks
- removing either Jaguar or Eagle warrior (one higher cost mezoamerican unit should be kept)
- removing pikeman
- removing at least one foot shooter
- removing at least one mounted shooter
- removing at least one more cavalry
- removing either ninja or ranger (at least one mountain walker should be kept, I think)

And having absolutely no idea if should be kept in TC:
- War Caravel
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by b2198 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:21 am

Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- add Nordic Warlord, Celtic Chieftain and Crusade Leader, but making all leaders require respective factories first
Would be wonderful, what about Daimyo?
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- remove culture specific buffers: Bishop, Druid
I'm sure at least 2 players would be very nerfed by removing Druid from TC, one may or may not be linked with a reviving flaming bird. I think it would be better to hear their say on the matter beforehand.
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- remove some more special units: Berserker, Gallowglass, Gaelic Fighter, Roman Aeanator, Strelet, Sipahi
All of these would be fine in my mind. (Berserker is the one who needs it the most, though XD)
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- Samurai requiring Dojo (or moving completely to Dojo if two-attack infantry could be added instead)
Not sure about this one, since it's the only japanese unit in the TC it would open the discussion about having other culture-specific units also require their factory to make, and maybe ones that aren't even in the TC roster. Maybe this would be a good thing in terms of simplifying choices? Like "You want to make only japanese units in all your factories? Ok, but you gotta make a dojo before that to unlock them". Something along those lines.
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- Zweihander requiring Barracks
Also not sure about this one, since it would be followed by discussions about which more specialized units should also be factory-locked, like poison horse archers, pikemen, or hussars. Again, maybe this would help reduce the complexity of the game in smaller maps and specially in the early game? Not sure. Would also be hard to balance, since some counters to some units might get factory-locked at some point, which might cause them to run wild in the early game, in a way similar to current berserkers, in that countering them requires spending a bit more time than what you might have available before getting overwhelmed.
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- removing at least one foot shooter
- removing at least one mounted shooter
Honestly I feel like we already have too few on TCs, but that is probably my bias towards archer units :sweat_smile:
Maybe longbowmen/poison archers/fire archers/hospitallers (though I wouldn't mind at all to lose Genoese Crossbowmen, but that is another question XD) for foot and mongolian horsemen/poison horse archers/horse crossbowmen/chariot archers for mounted. Naming these for possible removal in TC roster feels like naming parts of my soul to be removed from me D:
Maybe only factory-lock them instead of removing completely?
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- removing at least one more cavalry
I'd say one of these 3: Hussar, Hungarian Hussar or Chariot
Maybe also factory-lock them instead of removing completely?
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
- removing either ninja or ranger (at least one mountain walker should be kept, I think)
Ninja, probably, I feel like it's way more niche in usage, either that, or I'm one of the only ranger users in the game
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
What I only think about (and need an opinion) would be a little more extreme :
In general I think almost all of those will run into the discussions I mentioned when speaking about samurais and zweihanders.
Endru1241 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:39 am
And having absolutely no idea if should be kept in TC:
- War Caravel
War Caravel is, stats-wise, more turn efficient than a standard caravel, though that difference gets way smaller after hull and damage upgrades (since war caravel doesn't benefit from ranged damage techs), so my initial guess would be moving it to be dock-only, give it U_ARCHERS spec (so that it can get +2 damage from ranged damage) and make regular caravels buildable by workers, to make the usual distinction of "being stronger but less spammable" vs "being weaker but more spammable" some ships already have (like turtle ship line vs trirreme line, for example)

Edits: better wording... at least I hope so
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by phoenixffyrnig » Sat Nov 27, 2021 11:07 am

Presumably the Hospitallers and Templars are out because of being too strong on their own? Odd, but they are really underused in multiplayer - I find them so useful.

Yeah, leaders in req factory sounds good. Will they also be available from the castle roster? I think a general move towards requires factory for most of the better units would be good, agreed.

Haha, true, losing my white-robed, goatie-horned weirdos would hurt me, but I'd like to think I would adapt ;) I agree fully that the game will benefit from these changes - you folks evidently have more organised minds than mine for this sort of thing, so I'm not particularly bothered about individual examples, I'm fine to wait and see how it pans out.

Tbh, I'm not even clear which units have been made factory only and which are requires factory, but as long as there will remain enough choice to sustain any type of playthrough then I'll be happy. Variety is the spice of life :)
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by Endru1241 » Sat Nov 27, 2021 2:11 pm

Daimyo should probably be added too.
With requirement of course.

Among religious warriors - maybe hospitaller halberds could be removed from tc, just to decrease amount of units.
But they don't break the rule.
To achieve full potential they need upgrade (thus church).
And they are not too much for the cost.

"Strong on it's own" - I meant strong for the cost.

And maybe I forgot to mention, but those units more limited are eligible for slight boost.
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by b2198 » Sun Nov 28, 2021 12:13 am

b2198 wrote:
Sat Nov 27, 2021 4:21 am
Maybe longbowmen/poison archers/fire archers/hospitallers (though I wouldn't mind at all to lose Genoese Crossbowmen, but that is another question XD) for foot
Actually, I forgot about Roman Sagittarius, since they are already produceable in both roman garrison and archery range, and imo are in need for a small buff, since they currently need too many conditions just to compare to other archers in stats (need centurion nearby and legion missile tactics research just to become a tankier arbalest that costs 3 turns), so I think they are the main candidates for removal on TCs (and would also be consistent with other non-upgradeable culture-specific archers, since none of them are currently on TCs).
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by b2198 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 9:16 pm

Seeing how the russian pack topic is going, herbalist should be moved to the slavic factory too, right?
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Re: tc rooster rework

Post by Endru1241 » Thu Dec 23, 2021 10:19 pm

I'd say slavic pack.

But yes, that's how I set it.

What's more - this is what actually started it.
I wanted to move herbalist and recalled, that slavic faction is waiting in line for some time, so I made the building and few units to fill the roster.
Spent quite some time on it.
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