Infantry Reforms II

[TntAttack]

I wrote this once, spent like an hour. And the sit logged me out when I pressed submit and I have to write it all again.

Ideas below. Pick and choose which ones you guys like for the dev to add.

1. Medic

Roman physician from AoS puts our medic to shame.

Medic aura: 3 range, 5 hp bonus

Medic healing ability: 15 hp plus treatment effectiveness and removes suppression (see 4.)

Treatment ability: 60% more healing bonus.

Just check the Roman physician for reference.

2. Multiple unit Squad

Idea for infantry currently, can apply to other as well.

New sprite, units called e.g.
Assault squad: Costs 5, produces 2 smg, 1 mg.
Builder squad: costs 6, produces 1 engineer and 2 rifleman.
Anti tank squad: 2 anti tank rifleman, and one smg.

Ideally the player can choose the combination, but I doubt the engine has that capacity so we will just have pre set unit groups that produce multiple units at once.

Pros: Unit diversity, allows for better pushing, more cheaper than building them separately.
Cons: More sprites images, infantry spam meta.

Idea can be applied to tanks, subs, bombers. Anything you want to mass produce for a slight lesser cost.

Note: This is not a new unit. This is making 3 units at the same time for a slightly cheaper cost.

3.Officer Morale nerf

3 aura range is enough, 4 is too op.

4. Mortar and Artillery attacks adds suppression

Mortar attacks add light suppression to infantry, vehicles and light tanks.

Light suppression: -1 movement, -1 attack and armour.

Light suppression is stackable up to 2 times.

Artillery can target infantry, vehicles, all tanks. Adds heavy suppression.

Heavy supression: -2 movement, -2 attack and armour.
Is not stackable

5. Snipers

They get 2 actions, their attack is halved. Their attack gives off the light suppressed ability

6. Dedicated Guns factory for all factions

Balanced playing experience.


P.s I am stuck on the idea of giving commanders abilities. Like what kind of ability should Rommel get?

Also, what's with the status on the cruiser torpedo @Jasondunkel ?

What is the problem regarding trains and rails?

[DreJaDe]

1. Medic

Let's be clear with the aura.
Plus 5 heal aura is nice but not +5 HP.

I don't get healing bonus.

But lets also add the medic actory having heal ability

. Multiple unit Squad

Can agree with this but not sure if dev will agree. Stats also. What about the stats?

3.Officer Morale nerf

I can agree to this.

Mortar and Artillery attacks adds suppression

Not sure I can agree with mortar when they don't have aoe and 1 hit kill anyway. Can agree with artillery though but def too much.

-2 speed is def too OP. Maybe -1 speed with 1 lasting turn.

[Stratego (dev)]

just remark:

And the sit logged me out when I pressed submit and I have to write it all again.

i remark on this, as i also ran into this in many websites: my know how: NEVER write more than one sentence on any online page, write it in a notepad/Microsoft Word (press save while writing) and when finished - copy+paste into wepages.
that is the only way i found you can protect your work.

[TntAttack]

Mortar and Artillery attacks adds suppression

Not sure I can agree with mortar when they don't have aoe and 1 hit kill anyway. Can agree with artillery though but def too much.

-2 speed is def too OP. Maybe -1 speed with 1 lasting turn.

Well, makes sense. If you really want to nerf artillery for balancing, we could restrict it to that movement costs action like AoS but that's a bit much in my opinion.

It is a tad bit op, but I guess it's reflective of real life.

Also, regarding the healing bonuses, I am not too sure, but I think it's a bluff on infantry so that when healed they receive 15 + 5 hp more (15 is the base healing, 5 is from the 60%).

Medic tents definitely need an aura as well.

Btw, there is no stats for the infantry "squad", it's just costs 5, and produces 3 infantry units at once.

[DreJaDe]

Well, makes sense. If you really want to nerf artillery for balancing, we could restrict it to that movement costs action like AoS but that's a bit much in my opinion.

I remember having a discussion about this in the suggestion of adding a transformation for artillery... Not sure though.

Btw, there is no stats for the infantry "squad", it's just costs 5, and produces 3 infantry units at once.

I thought you mean a new type of unit which would act like a more condensed version of the current inf units. Like 1 unit having an smg, mg, and rifleman all in one sprite.

Though if you just want more units trained in a single training then I don't think that's even possible.

[TntAttack]

@Stratego (dev) What do you think about this idea? (Idea 2)

E.g. Assault Squad in barracks: Costs 5, and produces two smg and 1 mg? (So players save 1 turn off producing all the 3 different units individually)

-Can the barracks support the production of 3 units at once.
-This is under the assumption the barracks has 3 space. Can the limit be increased?
-No stats or anything complicated is needed. Just some icon images for the unit selection in the facility
-Supports offensive pushes and the concept of mass production is much needed gameplay wise and for this game's unique identity.
-Idea if possible can be applied to almost all units e.g. multiple light tanks, bombers if it's successful.

Honestly, with the exception of whether or not its possible I.e 3 units being produced at once, everything else is really simple to implement.

[Stratego (dev)]

i think we can not do that currently without engine change.
i thought of a transform on spawn (i think we have such already) but we can not transform to multiple units.

and there are also problem what is the 2 of the 3 slots is already occupied? should it block all production?
also not seems too "intuitive" to me to make a "grouped" unit that splits up - i mean a little weird as solution.

but in the first place: what is the main idea here? what is the "goal" ? i dont really get the goal.

[TntAttack]

Okay...

Aim: Promote players to use different infantry.

Goal: Giving players more ways to fight, tactically and strategically.

The idea: Mass Production

I will put in Swordsmen, archer and pikemen terms. This is to make it easier to understand.

Right now the player can produce Swordsmen, archer and pikemen. One at a time.

It is risky to produce an archer or Swordsmen first if the enemy has a knight around. It is more safe to build a pikemen, but they are weak to archers.

Each unit has their good and bad. There is a certain risk that needs to be calculated before the player chooses what to build first in order of priority.

Now, we move on to soldiers. Unlike Aos, the infantry mechanics are different. You can not "level" up your infantry like you do for Swordsmen to Broadsmens to MenAtArms.

Instead, AoWw is based around ww2. Ww2 is more centred around logistics and economy than compared to AoS.

We can not implement economy or logistics, but I am merely proposing the concept of mass production.

Advantages:

-Instead of building 3 infantry one at a time, we can build 3 at once at a slightly cheaper cost.

-On a tactically level is that players get different kinds of infantry at the same time. This means better infantry combat and diversity you will see as this mechanic promotes all infantry.

Example: Player has a choice to build a smg, rifleman or mortar. Mortar Unit is good, but isn't the most reliable so player chooses smg for safety.

With "multi production", players can choose 3 different units e.g. smg, rifleman and mortar together, at the same time.

Note that infantry on its own is incredibly weak. But together, they make a tactical team.

-Payers save costs in the longer run, at the risk of having less troops in field for a while.

-AoWw has a lot of reliance on truck transports for assaulting and transport. If one infantry comes up, it is a waste to send the truck plus 1 infantry to battle.

But if 3 infantry spawn at the same time, then you can put all of them inside a truck, making it work well together dynamically.

-Players don't have to waste as much production space building barracks, and can focus on other like tank factory and airports.

The conflicts:
-If player does not have enough space either...

1. Unit produces incomplete e.g. missing on rifleman. Random or preset for the missing unit I am not sure.

2. Unit does not produce=stalls (This one is the easiest, and would make it harder to use these. Which might be a good idea)

-If the engine can produce 2-3 different units at the same time.

1. If not, maybe Dev can try.

2. If impossible, forget it.

[Stratego (dev)]

It is risky to produce an archer or Swordsmen first if the enemy has a knight around. It is more safe to build a pikemen, but they are weak to archers.

i feel we take the goal of the game: that player should decide wisely, this is strategical. if we give him a "joker" squad than we reduce "strategy" in game.

smg, rifleman or mortar. Mortar Unit is good, but isn't the most reliable so player chooses smg for safety

this should mean that the best most versatile infantry is smg - sort of like it would be ll infantly in one.
i think the good move should be making all infantries matter and if SMG is too versatile - we should reduce its abilities/power/versatility.

so the good solution for this quoted "smg-anomaly" to make mortar, riflemen and all others to have its goal and non of them being "versatile" too much.
eg: what if mortad kills infantry in 2 area instantly? (maybe too powerful but people would deinfinitely train them against any infantry army.)

if 3 infantry spawn at the same time

why would these need to be 3 units? why not one unit that is visually a different units squad: eg. we could change smg (if that is already versatile) to cost about 4-5 (that your squad would be) and give "all" abilities that 3 unit would have (if they were separate units)

so i feel we try to figure out a "workaround" of the original problem: not all infantry worth to be trained, only smg is trained.

[godOfKings]

So u can make different sizes of infantry, like 2 turn is unit, 5 turn is squad and a platoon with more turns, may b a light tank in the midst too, they have higher hp and some properties of the base units they r from, will they also have transformation ability like gem cart of aos, suppose u make platoon, platoon can summon an assault infantry and transform into squad, squad can summon a light tank and transform into unit, may b smg unit

Its just an example but the idea is clever and has a broad scope of different strategies and manipulations

[DreJaDe]

this should mean that the best most versatile infantry is smg - sort of like it would be ll infantly in one.
i think the good move should be making all infantries matter and if SMG is too versatile - we should reduce its abilities/power/versatility.

I tried this... We just couldn't agree on whats best and if I remember correctly, no updates also coming from Jason there as he said he would.

so the good solution for this quoted "smg-anomaly" to make mortar, riflemen and all others to have its goal and non of them being "versatile" too much.
eg: what if mortad kills infantry in 2 area instantly? (maybe too powerful but people would deinfinitely train them against any infantry army.)

Mortar is currently actually really good. Safe counter to sniper, great defender unit, safe attacking unit, sure hit kill unit etc. I dont see a need of rebalane currently unless people make stats for realistic versions of their weapon. (Im planning to do it but there are still a lot not implemented).

Rifleman needs change though the grenade change as Jason have agreed is still not implemented...

[TntAttack]

It is risky to produce an archer or Swordsmen first if the enemy has a knight around. It is more safe to build a pikemen, but they are weak to archers.

i feel we take the goal of the game: that player should decide wisely, this is strategical. if we give him a "joker" squad than we reduce "strategy" in game.

smg, rifleman or mortar. Mortar Unit is good, but isn't the most reliable so player chooses smg for safety

this should mean that the best most versatile infantry is smg - sort of like it would be ll infantly in one.
i think the good move should be making all infantries matter and if SMG is too versatile - we should reduce its abilities/power/versatility.

so the good solution for this quoted "smg-anomaly" to make mortar, riflemen and all others to have its goal and non of them being "versatile" too much.
eg: what if mortad kills infantry in 2 area instantly? (maybe too powerful but people would deinfinitely train them against any infantry army.)

if 3 infantry spawn at the same time

why would these need to be 3 units? why not one unit that is visually a different units squad: eg. we could change smg (if that is already versatile) to cost about 4-5 (that your squad would be) and give "all" abilities that 3 unit would have (if they were separate units)

so i feel we try to figure out a "workaround" of the original problem: not all infantry worth to be trained, only smg is trained.

I am speechless. Ok. Round 3.

There seems to be 2 ideas.

1. New unit, Infantry squad/platoon etc.
Has all the abilities of all the individual Infantry inside e.g. mortar, mg, rifleman.

2. Multi production.
Builds different normal infantry units at the same time. E.g. Player clicks on unit Builders Squad (not actually a squad), and the game produces 2 rifleman and 1 engineer Infantry units separately.

The first idea is not good for different reasons. I worry it might deviate from the concept of Infantry fighting mechanics we already have. Also tons of work to get the stats right.

This is not what I am proposing.

The second idea is basically adding a cost effective way to produce more units in less time. Mass production. 1 Infantry is not very good alone, but if he spawns together with other Infantry, it is much better.

We are not removing individual Infantry from being produced, we are merely giving players more options. Much like the supply truck, it's small costs 3 turns and speeds up 1. The larger variant supply truck costs 5 and speeds up 3.

Thus the larger supply truck costs more, but players get more value.

Similarly, if there is a way for players to purchase more units for the less price in the longer run, it would enhance the game experience. As you can "offically" spam. To make the gameplay experience more diverse, we can mix different units e.g. smg, smg, mg.

How do we do that?

I imagine we just make an icon, name and some description. When players click on this e.g. Assault squad, it's not making a super platoon or anything. It's just producing 3 Infantry soldiers at the same time

This could be extended to everything. You want a 2 turn light tank or for the price of 5 you can get 3 light tanks.

3 light tanks are much more better together then alone.

[Stratego (dev)]

The second idea is basically adding a cost effective way to produce more units in less time. Mass production. 1 Infantry is not very good alone, but if he spawns together with other Infantry, it is much better.

i am not sure what is "cheaper cost" in your idea.
i thought you mean if a squad is infantry+smg+mortar that is trained individually for 6 turns, and in pack for 5 turns? or youean for much cheaper like 3 turns?

You want a 2 turn light tank or for the price of 5 you can get 3 light tanks. 3 light tanks are much more better together then alone.

3 light tanks: but you can currently train 3 light tanks after each other, if it cosr only 1 turns less i dont feel big difference.
(also if we ONLY want to speed up production in a TC you can use the supply trucks from another TC.)

other idea to get close to your idea is some "luck" or "mass" producing bonus during the time, like if you train same unit in same factory than it will get less costy as the produced number increases.
for instance:
1 infantry cost 2 turns
2nd infantry cost 1.7 turns
3rd infantry cost 1.3 turns (so on this pont on 5th turn you have 3 infantry)
4th infantry cosr 1.0 turns (so you have 4 now ?)


such like this, but this also seems a little weird from player perspective (as he sees a turncost in statsheet and it will get in different time)

but i feel this mass producing topic would not make a big difference in gameplay, also it would cause some confusions and problems in some cases (eg. pathfinding now avoids TC-s with only 1 space left, but from now it should check the produtions so not only 1 unit will get produced but 3 - and so on, there can be many many such problems to solve.

[TntAttack]

Man. I feel like I had a really good idea this time. There will be a slight fundamental change in gameplay. Not huge, but enough to make a difference, and a good one I think.

For example, let player A own 2 towns, 1 barracks and tank factory.

Currently, if the player is being attacked or wishes to attack, they will set the 2 towns and barracks to make infantry and transport vehicle.

The tank factory will be set on a light or medium tank for support.

Suppose my idea works.

Player A can set on his barracks a squad of 3 infantry for the cost of 5. One town he sets to truck transport, and the last town he has it free.

He can even set that last town on another 3 infantry squad for the cost of 5.

Player A will be vulnerable for about 5 turns. After 5 turns, he will get 6 infantry plus a truck transport plus a tank.

It's not necessarily the economy aspect of the game I am focusing on this time e.g. like your price reduction suggestion however there is a tiny 1 turn discount, but I am focusing on tactical level.

Having a full 3 infantry squad at once performs better then having 1 infantry come up one at a time.

Enough about my idea. You raised a good point. It would be complicated to check for everything in the town to see if there is 3 available spots left.

A workaround perhaps could be that the unit spawned is a transport truck with the 3 infantry inside.

Truck with the 3 infantry inside has 1 movement, low health and disappears after 1 turn.

But yea, I think you got the idea. If it's not possible I guess I will drop it for now. Thanks for asking my questions.

[godOfKings]

So wat about making new units with bigger size like platoon and can transform to smaller version while separating a single infantry unit from it like how gem carts work in aos by separating a money courier?

A damaged platoon transformation can b considered this way, separated unit has full hp while the transformed unit has same percentage of hp as platoon b4 transformation, like how packed rams and unpacked versions can have same percentage of hp after transformation if the ram was already damaged

[DreJaDe]

So wat about making new units with bigger size like platoon and can transform to smaller version while separating a single infantry unit from it like how gem carts work in aos by separating a money courier?

A damaged platoon transformation can b considered this way, separated unit has full hp while the transformed unit has same percentage of hp as platoon b4 transformation, like how packed rams and unpacked versions can have same percentage of hp after transformation if the ram was already damaged

The problem with this is the sheer amount of units that needs to be added. Even more when different combination is made eg (mg,smg,rifleman)(rifleman,rifleman,rifleman)

The sprites are def easy to make though... Just with enough time.

[godOfKings]

Isnt that a good thing? U can balance around historical platoons in different countries too, giving a more dynamic depth

[DreJaDe]

Isnt that a good thing? U can balance around historical platoons in different countries too, giving a more dynamic depth

Implementation part is the problem even if it's accepted...

Some agreed fixes are still not in just for reference.

[Jasondunkel]

to 6:
some time ago i think drejade brought up such a factory for everyone and actually i'm waiting for the pictures of the other nations besides germany because germany already has them

to 1:
we can gladly increase the range, but then i would want to give different hp+ for the different distances. at the distance e.g. only hp+1 at range 3, at 2 distance +2hp
I also think Drejade's suggestion that the medical tents get an aura is good, but I would suggest a range of 2 there, since they work very well in the tent

to 2:

I wouldn't want the mix of unit types, I prefer the clear structure

to 3: we can gladly reduce

should that also affect the special generals like rommel?

to 4: i find the idea of ​​suppression and thus the loss of movement interesting

With the mortars, however, I would only want to take vehicles and infantry as affected units and only movement

in the case of artillery, medium tanks can be added to the movement, infantry and vehicles can also have -2 movement.

if it is possible, the suppression should only take effect when two or three units of the same type are in range

here the question would be whether that works @strategeo

to 5: I actually think the snipers are good the way they are at the moment

i think the idea of ​​mass production is good so far, but i would only like to have it in big cities.

as I think you have already suggested tnt. we should have different types of cities as in the game agow.

i.e. we have villages where we can only build infantry and vehicles, maybe light paks or artillery and only have two slots there to park units

cities like now where everything is built and researched and 4 slots for the units

and big cities like london moscow ect where mass production works and 6 slots are available

and mass production is then only possible with the same type, e.g. t-34 tanks and the corresponding slots are free to then place all tanks there with a cost advantage of 1-2 rounds

here as an example a t-34 then gets the benefit of 1 round and a t28/t95 then gets a benefit of 2 rounds and mass production has to be researched first

I will pass on your question about the trains and tracks to stratego

What I know is that he can't bring the game into the game in a visually satisfactory way

[TntAttack]

to 1:
we can gladly increase the range, but then i would want to give different hp+ for the different distances. at the distance e.g. only hp+1 at range 3, at 2 distance +2hp
I also think Drejade's suggestion that the medical tents get an aura is good, but I would suggest a range of 2 there, since they work very well in the tent

to 3: we can gladly reduce

should that also affect the special generals like rommel?

to 4: i find the idea of ​​suppression and thus the loss of movement interesting

With the mortars, however, I would only want to take vehicles and infantry as affected units and only movement

in the case of artillery, medium tanks can be added to the movement, infantry and vehicles can also have -2 movement.

if it is possible, the suppression should only take effect when two or three units of the same type are in range

here the question would be whether that works @strategeo

to 5: I actually think the snipers are good the way they are at the moment

i think the idea of ​​mass production is good so far, but i would only like to have it in big cities.

as I think you have already suggested tnt. we should have different types of cities as in the game agow.

i.e. we have villages where we can only build infantry and vehicles, maybe light paks or artillery and only have two slots there to park units

cities like now where everything is built and researched and 4 slots for the units

and big cities like london moscow ect where mass production works and 6 slots are available

and mass production is then only possible with the same type, e.g. t-34 tanks and the corresponding slots are free to then place all tanks there with a cost advantage of 1-2 rounds

here as an example a t-34 then gets the benefit of 1 round and a t28/t95 then gets a benefit of 2 rounds and mass production has to be researched first

I will pass on your question about the trains and tracks to stratego

What I know is that he can't bring the game into the game in a visually satisfactory way

1. I like your suggestion about healing ranges for medics.
3. Maybe not as the current Rommel/patton units are unique units that can only be built once per player.
4. Actually, how about this idea. Every attack that a mortar and Artillery does has a supression effect like the Katurshar except the debuff effects don't take affect until there are 3 suppression effects on that unit.

E.g. Tank A gets hit by mortar, arty, and arty. Tank A gets movement -2 debuff.
Tank B gets hit by 2 mortars, and receives no debuff.

(I am visualising this similar to AoS's conversion mechanic where it just stacks and stacks on a building/unit.

5. Yea I change my mind. Snipers are great the way they are now.


Mass Production:

- Capital cities sound great. Is 6 capacity in cities even possible?
- Not sure how your mass production idea works? Can you explain again.