Type 21 (XXI) submarine cost too low IMPLEMENTED

[DreJaDe]

Here's the only difference.

In mine, you can only use torpedo when surfaced.

All you said is there besides when submerged.

Can fire on surface ships with torpedo

Submerged sub purely defensive and for hiding in my suggestion.

My suggestion after all is just an addition to yours by now.

In actuality, from some perspective. Yours are more complex.

Though mine, you can say has more complex strategy that you need to pull off to make your subs worth.

[Stratego (dev)]

Planned changes so far:
-Subs submerged can only last 3 turns (4 for advanced ones) - will go surface autmatically if on tiemout.
-Torpedoes can not target underwater submarined (only ships and surfaced ones)

(no need to make 1 turn cooldown after surfacing as subs have 1 action already - or not?)
(as i understood the "without action" thing is not needed - i myself did not undertood what was the goal on that)
(this way the 2 turn German sub is no longer OP)

[Jasondunkel]

yes the submerged submarines in wwII were not intended to fight each other.
If the submarines can only be used against ships that swim normally... wouldn't the submarines be even stronger than they are now?

even if they have to respawn after three or four rounds
here we should perhaps find out again how long the respective submarine could dive.
the German submarine VII could only dive for about 17 hours where I might even have to surface after two rounds

maybe we can add another column to the xls

the idea with von drejade with the diving phases makes the game too complicated, even if it corresponds to reality.

In addition, the question would be whether the different diving depths can be represented reasonably.

and tnt is right. the allies have successfully fought submarines through the air.

maybe we should give planes there better detection of submarines.

i.e. in a radius of 5-6, the fighter-bomber or bomber submarine can see it if that is possible

[DreJaDe]

maybe we should give planes there better detection of submarines.

i.e. in a radius of 5-6, the fighter-bomber or bomber submarine can see it if that is possible

I highly agree with this.

If the submarines can only be used against ships that swim normally... wouldn't the submarines be even stronger than they are now?

This is also my concern. Which is why I wanted for Subs to only be able to attack when surfaced.

(no need to make 1 turn cooldown after surfacing as subs have 1 action already - or not?)

This is needed because other subs have 2 action. Also the really intention for it is for the FORCED surfacing so that they can't submerged on the same turn.

(as i understood the "without action" thing is not needed - i myself did not undertood what was the goal on that)

If they have time out, this is important in his suggestion cause he wanted to keep the submerge only when attacking when he have to submerge → Move → Attack. So that the three action can be done on the same turn.

Though actually, there's no need to consider this because it's already what's in game. They can already use torpedo and use submerge in the same turn... I think it's just there so that, it might not be misunderstood.

[Stratego (dev)]

Planned changes so far:
-Subs submerged can only last 3 turns (4 for advanced ones) - will go surface autmatically if on tiemout.
-Torpedoes can not target underwater submarines (only ships and surfaced subs)
- Surfaced subs transformation (and newly produced units) starts with 1 turn cd for "submerge" ability.


remarks:
- the "without action" thing : we dont change here (dreja says works like this already)
- this way the 2 turn German sub is no longer OP
- diving phases: this would overcomplicate things, we talked dont go this way.
- about planes: we only set that they see all submerged subs in all sight range - we can not reduce only the sub-sight range. So this way shall we make any plane tosee subs? if so exactly which planes?


i start making the planned changes
(i would need help which sub how long to stay submerged, and yes it can be in xls, i put in.)

[TntAttack]

remarks:
- about planes: we only set that they see all submerged subs in all sight range - we can not reduce only the sub-sight range. So this way shall we make any plane tosee subs? if so exactly which planes?

Perhaps don't change anything for now. Currently air units can counter submerged subs so it's not imbalanced per say.

i start making the planned changes
(i would need help which sub how long to stay submerged, and yes it can be in xls, i put in.)

I would like to help, am a bit busy, but if there is anything quick and simple I can do, I wouldn't mind helping out. Any specific instructions?

[Stratego (dev)]

I wouldn't mind helping out. Any specific instructions?

you mean you would try editing the unit statsheets? (json file)

[Stratego (dev)]

IMPLEMENTED

[Jasondunkel]

- about planes: we only set that they see all submerged subs in all sight range - we can not reduce only the sub-sight range. So this way shall we make any plane tosee subs? if so exactly which planes?

We don't have any real spotting planes in the game yet.

the last japanese plane i sent you but not yet in the xls would be such a plane

we could also implement an extra aircraft area spotter. For the most part they are unarmed or very few.

So that they don't get shot down quite as easily, we could give these planes reinforced armor. they would get no bonuses for the fight. All nations had such aircraft

the question would be whether drejade or someone else would create an image for the aircraft.

otherwise one could make an image for all nations just with a slightly different color similar to the paratropics

[DreJaDe]

We don't have any real spotting planes in the game yet.

We have. Even the normal bomber of the UK acts as one IRL.

Also, I think I have a better idea for the subs.

Instead of both of them not being able to hit each other. Why not, both can't see each other? Like removing their stealth sight.

I mean, it's kinda weird that they can see each other but not attack.

Also, TBH. Reducing the counter to subs... I don't know but I think it kinda just makes them more powerful.

[Jasondunkel]

We don't have any real spotting planes in the game yet.

We have. Even the normal bomber of the UK acts as one IRL.

Also, I think I have a better idea for the subs.

Instead of both of them not being able to hit each other. Why not, both can't see each other? Like removing their stealth sight.

I mean, it's kinda weird that they can see each other but not attack.

Also, TBH. Reducing the counter to subs... I don't know but I think it kinda just makes them more powerful.

Yes, I know that many of the planes that we have in the game have been used time and time again as reconnaissance planes.

the train of thought for the "reconnaissance aircraft" is that we create an "extra aircraft group" there. since the reconnaissance aircraft were mostly not used as combat units.

Mentally, as I said, I imagine that the reconnaissance planes get an extra range of vision where they then have a radius of e.g. 15 tiles, the other planes are reduced by 1-2 maybe 3-4 tiles. In addition, maybe a significantly higher armor 8-10

If we gave the existing units anything extra they would probably become OP by their actual task



that the submarines only surfaced shooting is definitely true until 1943, if it is possible and supported by the engine, we could try it. Stratego what do you say to that? I think from the years 1944 onwards the torpedoes were shot there in a snorkel trip, i.e. slightly submerged.

as can be seen from TNT's link, the submerged submarines could not actually see or recognize each other

So yes, submerged, the submarines could not see each other. but if we were to do that, as you say, the submarines would become even stronger, but if the engine allows it, we could try it out and see how it is in the game

[TntAttack]

Sorry I am going to summarize your block of text.

1. Reconnaissance Planes
-Non combat
-High Visibility
-Nerf other planes to give Reconnaissance planes a role

2. Subs
-Can't see each other subs e.g. separate hidden units like how scouts can't see Subs despite both being invisible
-Subs gain aa ability in industry 2/3
-(My idea) Perhaps we should up the costs of Subs to 3 and 4 turns. Maybe really powerful ones even 5 turns.

[DreJaDe]

So yes, submerged, the submarines could not see each other. but if we were to do that, as you say, the submarines would become even stronger, but if the engine allows it, we could try it out and see how it is in the game

Yes... I forgot to say that this suggestion should be for later.

that the submarines only surfaced shooting is definitely true until 1943, if it is possible and supported by the engine, we could try it. Stratego what do you say to that? I think from the years 1944 onwards the torpedoes were shot there in a snorkel trip, i.e. slightly submerged.

Snorkel level is still closer to surface than submerged where it can't be hit by normal guns. My logic already explained that.

[Stratego (dev)]

i can not follow this mega thread - is there anything to change here?

[Jasondunkel]

Sorry I am going to summarize your block of text.

1. Reconnaissance Planes
-Non combat
-High Visibility
-Nerf other planes to give Reconnaissance planes a role

yes

2. Subs
-Can't see each other subs e.g. separate hidden units like how scouts can't see Subs despite both being invisible

yes

-Subs gain aa ability in industry 2/3

??? were did i wrote this

-(My idea) Perhaps we should up the costs of Subs to 3 and 4 turns. Maybe really powerful ones even 5 turns.

but than the other ships have to be more expensive too.

[DreJaDe]

Subs did have AA but those are completely useless.

I think, the planes we need currently are the anti sub planes like those with depth charges.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok, please use the submarines #2 thread for any new suggestion.