Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul IMPLEMENTED

[DreJaDe]

This suggestions is taken from the following.
*this stats of their gun
Thompson
Range: 150m
Rpm: 800
Mag: 100 drum
Muzzle Velocity: 285 m/s
Officers, commando, light forces

Sten
Range: 100m
Rpm: 600
Mag: 32
Muzzle Velocity 356m/s
Bullet: same damage as thomp

Mp40
Range: 250m
Rpm: 550
Mag: 32
Muzzle Velocity: 400 m/s
Normal soldier

Ppd
Range: 200m
Rpm: 1000
Mag: 71 drum
Muzzle Velocity: 490 m/s
Normal soldier

Mas-38
Range: 200m
Rpm: 700
Mag: 32
Muzzle Velocity: 350 m/s
Normal soldier

Type 100 smg
Range: 150m
Rpm: 450
Mag: 30
Muzzle Velocity: 420 m/s
Normal soldier

Beretta Model 38
Range: 200m
Rpm: 600
Mag: 40
Muzzle Velocity: 350 m/s
Normal soldier

Note
This is all not specifically true as changes in the gun depending on the purpose is also there and I used this stats just to make then different from each other while making sure that they are at the least equal to each other.

Don't try to think much of the number... I didn't use really math them, I just use it as reference.

[DreJaDe]

I have also taken into account
*balance
*keeping some old forms so that people would not be much confused
*how soldiers are described in real life
*their overall capability
*others more that I probably forgot

[DreJaDe]

Here's the changes.

All smg will lose their anti infantry grenade but not anti tank grenade

Common stats
(besides when written specifically under specific smg unit)
action: 2
Attack: 2
Speed: 3

Bonus
%700 - Vehicle Non combat
%400 - Buildings
%1000 - Heavy Buildings

US Thompson SMG
HP: 30
Action: 3

Bonus
%600 - infantry

British Sten SMG
HP: 35

Bonus
%850 - infantry

German Mp40 SMG
HP: 32

Bonus
%900 - infantry

Soviet Ppd
HP: 40
Action: 3

Bonus
%550 - infantry

French Mas-38
Hp: 38

Bonus
%700 - infantry

Japanese Type 100 smg
HP: 40

Bonus
%700 - infantry

Italian Beretta Model 38
HP: 32

Bonus
%800 - Infantry

Note
You probably noticed that its already too long but I can pose their overall damage so that you can easily understand them more easily.

[DreJaDe]

@Jasondunkel
@Stratego (dev)
@TntAttack
@Dahdee
@SS-Jericho

[TntAttack]

So what's happening to the grenades then? (Will rifleman keep them) I kinda enjoyed having grenades despite its excessive damage in the recent updates, but removing it is probably for the best.

Am primarily using smgs right now as a mean of fast, cheap, anti tank, anti infantry, transportable, officer morale compatible unit which absolutely is totally not broken.

Am fine with better balancing, but honestly smgs should cost 3 turns.

As for your stats, I don't have too much of an issue, not that I am well verse with guns in relation to their gamified stats.

[DreJaDe]

So what's happening to the grenades then? (Will rifleman keep them) I kinda enjoyed having grenades despite its excessive damage in the recent updates, but removing it is probably for the best

Rifleman can keep them or another idea would be a grenade launcher infantry which exist for most faction.

Am primarily using smgs right now as a mean of fast, cheap, anti tank, anti infantry, transportable, officer morale compatible unit which absolutely is totally not broken.

For me, it's more for only as town capturer or a city defender. They are the most versatile indeed but in the open. I usually use machine gun or just tanks.

Am fine with better balancing, but honestly smgs should cost 3 turns

Kinda reluctant in that option since the MG update is already there and MGs are definitely more powerful. Also, having cost same as tanks is not really that good for me since counter should be cheaper all to more when. It's the infantry.

[SS-Jericho]

I like the changes of the smgs which affects the overall rework of infantry. I disagree with removal of grenades, because the recent update buff its damage to artillery which is really needed. So reduce the damage bonus and retain the grenade. It also does not solve the problem of SMG dominating riflemen in the open ground.

The goal is to make SMG a close combat squad right??

What if we take the long rework....

1. Make SMG vulnerable - prior to your hp suggestion, have a base reduction of 5hp. The idea is to allow them to get countered easily by most units. In real life smgs are weak and are often covered by riflemen , MG, and smoke to close in to the enemy.

This way SMG will no longer be a line infantry.

2. Allow them to shoot units inside structures - I dont know if this is possible though. Recently, most players are building sandbag bunkers a lot, I think it is good and realistic; So allowing SMG to shoot inside will make it realistic since they will dominate Close combat. Flamethrowers cant kill artillery inside bunkers, but smg grenade will be able to damage it from the inside now.

This way SMG will be used for rushing defenses and countering MG.

3. Followup Riflemen rework - Riflemen should have an increase in damage against Infantry. They should be useful in mid range combat. Bolt action and semi-auto are more used than smg during ww2 since it is a lot easier to manufacture and pair with other ranged guns. Also, they should have an increased damage than shoulder AT once it got reworked as well.

This way riflemen will become the main line infantry. And not just the grenades are used. Rifle grenade launcher sounds great for them too as you guys said.

4. Implement the anti-infantry and Anti-tank grenade suggestion of DreJaDe - the Anti-tank grenade suggsstion can now fit in the SMG. This will represent the advantage of SMG in urban combat vs tanks. While the infantry grenade is just a nerf and part of overall macro rework of infantry

This way SMG will be used in defending town against tanks.

------------
I know it is quite a lot but I would be glad to help in making the changes if ever.

[Jasondunkel]

Here's the changes.

All smg will lose their anti infantry grenade but not anti tank grenade

Common stats
(besides when written specifically under specific smg unit)
action: 2
Attack: 2
Speed: 3

Bonus
%700 - Vehicle Non combat
%400 - Buildings
%1000 - Heavy Buildings

US Thompson SMG
HP: 30
Action: 3

Bonus
%600 - infantry

British Sten SMG
HP: 35

Bonus
%850 - infantry

German Mp40 SMG
HP: 32

Bonus
%900 - infantry

Soviet Ppd
HP: 40
Action: 3

Bonus
%550 - infantry

French Mas-38
Hp: 38

Bonus
%700 - infantry

Japanese Type 100 smg
HP: 40

Bonus
%700 - infantry

Italian Beretta Model 38
HP: 32

Bonus
%800 - Infantry

Note
You probably noticed that its already too long but I can pose their overall damage so that you can easily understand them more easily.

Hmm here are several things I don't like first of all I find the bonuses too high and against the rifleman the base damage resistance is too low in my view.

here is a other proposal

Common Statistics
(except when specifically written under a specific smg unit)
Action: 2
Attack: 3
speed: 3

bonus
%400 - Vehicle Not in combat
%500 - building
%1000 - Heavy buildings

US Thompson SMG
HP: 30
Action: 3

bonus
%500 - infantry

British Sten SMG
HP: 35

bonus
%650 - infantry

German MP40 SMG
HP: 32

bonus
%700 - Infantry

Soviet PPD
HP: 40
Action: 3

bonus
%500 - infantry

French Mas-38
HP: 38

bonus
%600 - Infantry

Japanese type 100 smg
HP: 40

bonus
%550 - Infantry

Italian Beretta Model 38
PS: 32

bonus
%600 - Infantry

[Jasondunkel]

I like the changes of the smgs which affects the overall rework of infantry. I disagree with removal of grenades, because the recent update buff its damage to artillery which is really needed. So reduce the damage bonus and retain the grenade. It also does not solve the problem of SMG dominating riflemen in the open ground.

The goal is to make SMG a close combat squad right??

What if we take the long rework....

1. Make SMG vulnerable - prior to your hp suggestion, have a base reduction of 5hp. The idea is to allow them to get countered easily by most units. In real life smgs are weak and are often covered by riflemen , MG, and smoke to close in to the enemy.

This way SMG will no longer be a line infantry.

2. Allow them to shoot units inside structures - I dont know if this is possible though. Recently, most players are building sandbag bunkers a lot, I think it is good and realistic; So allowing SMG to shoot inside will make it realistic since they will dominate Close combat. Flamethrowers cant kill artillery inside bunkers, but smg grenade will be able to damage it from the inside now.

This way SMG will be used for rushing defenses and countering MG.

3. Followup Riflemen rework - Riflemen should have an increase in damage against Infantry. They should be useful in mid range combat. Bolt action and semi-auto are more used than smg during ww2 since it is a lot easier to manufacture and pair with other ranged guns. Also, they should have an increased damage than shoulder AT once it got reworked as well.

This way riflemen will become the main line infantry. And not just the grenades are used. Rifle grenade launcher sounds great for them too as you guys said.

4. Implement the anti-infantry and Anti-tank grenade suggestion of DreJaDe - the Anti-tank grenade suggsstion can now fit in the SMG. This will represent the advantage of SMG in urban combat vs tanks. While the infantry grenade is just a nerf and part of overall macro rework of infantry

This way SMG will be used in defending town against tanks.

------------
I know it is quite a lot but I would be glad to help in making the changes if ever.

we can increase the bonuses of the riflemen
but remember they only ever have the standard rifle

[DreJaDe]

I like the changes of the smgs which affects the overall rework of infantry. I disagree with removal of grenades, because the recent update buff its damage to artillery which is really needed. So reduce the damage bonus and retain the grenade. It also does not solve the problem of SMG dominating riflemen in the open ground.

Yeah, the problem is that its kinda hard to do as you say which is to decrease their dominance against Rifleman. Then maybe rifleman will have full counter so that it will further weaken the smg against rifleman.
What do you think?

One way I was thinking on this specific suggestion is to remove grenade so that they will lose their HP per hit.

I have multiple way to at least solve it. Pick your poison.
A. Remove the grenade.
B. Remove SMG from TC and only allow them to barracks
C. Remove smg counter attack
D. Put the anti tank grenade in Rifleman (LOL)
E. The other way to do it is to rebalance the rifleman which im planning to do. But overall will have still have less damage yet stronger damage per single hit unlike the current.

Btw, the HP reduction will not work here as the rifleman have really so low damage anyway that they can only mill smg through grenade.

Hmm here are several things I don't like first of all I find the bonuses too high and against the rifleman the base damage resistance is too low in my view.

I don't know if it's just a translation error but if you want to decrease their damage then that's really not what happened. You just increased it.

Example
Original suggestion
US Thompson SMG
Dmg: 2
Bonus: %600
Action: 3
Overall damage against infantry: 42

@Jasondunkel suggested changes
US Thompson SMG
Damage: 3
Bonus: %500
Action: 3
Overall damage against infantry: 54

This is a really high damage and pretty much invalidated the HP that I've put in them. I definitely disagree with your suggestion are this is kinda too much.

There's also some inconsistencies like the Soviet SMG.

The reason for this change is to remove their dominance against most infantry. My suggestion is that least lessening their dominance and making them more vulnerable when they are firing.

[DreJaDe]

I will also do for the rifleman btw. It's just more hard to do it as I can't pick what type of stats should I even give.

[SS-Jericho]

@DreJaDe I think you misunderstood what I am trying to say.

Btw, the HP reduction will not work here as the rifleman have really so low damage anyway that they can only mill smg through grenade.

All the 4 things I said should be done together (thats why I said it is a long rework). SMG hp should be reduced, and at the same time, riflemen damage is increased. So SMG should have a ~27HP prior to your HP suggestion above. While buffing the riflemen will allow them to one tap SMG and several other units as well.

I think riflemen should have a maximum damage of 28 and have an increase of hp as well. So they would not overpower other units in terms of damage. Then riflemen will become a line infantry because of high HP, which I think is realistic.

I have multiple way to at least solve it. Pick your poison.

These does not make sense in representing the capabilities of SMG squads. Especially the removal and transferring of grenades. Removing their counter kinda not makes sense especially if their defending in towns. While rebalancing riflemen will still not nerf smg in open battle. It will just become a suicide battle for infantries because most can one shot.

Conclusion:

Your first suggestion of rebalancing SMG by basing in the type of gun and its use is the only thing I agree. Although it is not enough so I supplement it with a complete rework for SMG (all of the the 1-4 I said on my previous message).

[SS-Jericho]

If you still dont understand it, the 4 things I said is to completely balance the SMG

So all of these should be applied for SMG

Number 1 (base hp is 27) to make SMG killable by most units. Because in reality they are weak in the open.

Number 2 (allow them to shoot units inside structures) buff their close combat capability in game. Which is clearing units inside structures. So players can pair them with flamethrower. Since flamethrower cant kill artillery in game.

Number 3 (riflemen rework) to buff riflemen damage slightly to counter AT infantry and SMG. And increase their HP. So riflemen is the filler units in game. Which is also like in real life.

Number 4 (your 2 grenade change suggestion) since SMG is now weak due to low hp and will now only be used for rushing; give them the additional anti tank grenade you have been suggesting. So we can represent their anti tank advantage in urban combat.

Lastly, damage bonus/hp/attack turns change - (your 1st suggestion, but reduce its damage bonus)

[DreJaDe]

I think this is a good way to start a conversation.

These does not make sense in representing the capabilities of SMG squads. Especially the removal and transferring of grenades. Removing their counter kinda not makes sense especially if their defending in towns. While rebalancing riflemen will still not nerf smg in open battle. It will just become a suicide battle for infantries because most can one shot.

Well, if you want their HP lowered to begin with. There would be no use to their counter. They would be killed anyway with just 1 shot. And them having no counter can actually simulate the logic of them having shorter range (THIS IS THE HARDEST PART IN PUTTING STATS IF YOU LOOK AT THE STAT SHEET I MADE). While their damage being low but numerous can represent their overall automatic weapon.

And SMG will not 1 shot in this suggestion. Most of them are two hits with US and Soviet needing 3. With this also, they will damage themselves and will basically kill themselves all to more if we put a full counter to rifleman.

In reality, the reason why players are using them as it is is because this is a game. They can sacrifice unit cause it is more objectively wise to do so while IRL, although it is possible, they will not if it will kill their infantry.

1. I don't agree with the HP.
Reason
a. Most users of SMG are elites. Although yes, they are few in every squad but they are still better than normal infantry.

b. I set it up in a way complimentary of their damage. And I actually have to redo all of it if the HP needs changes. This is actually less negotiable than MG and the grenades. (ITS JUST SO HARD TO MAKE NUMBERS OF THEIR STATS WHEN COMPARING TO OTHER UNITS)

2. I don't think this is possible. It's only a yes or no for all units. There's no in-between.

3. Yes, buff right? In my case, it is still hard for me to quantify them. I don't want them to be too weak yet I don't want them to be too strong. (If I assume that every unit is a squad, then them dying easily for me is quite fine but also "what about their skill?")

4. They will keep the anti-grenade. That was their main thing anyway. I still don't agree with their HP being low but maybe later once we have the full changes of infantry.

This can always be adjusted anyway.

[SS-Jericho]

That is the point though, them to be killed easily. SMG are weak alone in reality. Removing their counter does not connect with your logic of "being short range". SMG can defend themselves if they are in short range, so they should have counter if they got attack by flamethrowers/officers/other infantry besides MG and Riflemen. Which I also now agree in giving then more anti tank grenade so we can see them strong in urban combat.

By one shot, I meant killing an infantry in one turn. I do sacrifice units in game to gain quality advantage. But the point is SMG should be really strong when attacking. That is why they should retain their grenade. So in game, players will use them to rush other units.

1. Yes they are elite, so they should have high damage. But low hp because they are fewer and vulnerable to range attacks.

b. If you find it hard, why dont we base them on historical organization of SMG? For example Assault Piooners/Engineers that are mostly used during ww2. For soviets they did have a lot of SMG like PPsh for close quarters. While germany have less, and are supplemented by rifles instead, especially during 1943 onwards.

2. What do you mean between? What I am saying is just buffing their close quarter capability. And it is represented in game through clearing units inside a structure in game. And I am looking forward to it.

3. They wont be weak or too strong if you increase their hp and damage slightly. They should not one shot units, only some AT squads and SMG (if smg hp is reduced). Their increase in hp represents their organization in real life. Which are a lot of men armed with rifle.

4. Yes. SMG in game kinda works fine for now, not too spammy. Maybe we should rework riflemen first. Then Shoulder AT squads because they are really useless in game currently.

[DreJaDe]

1. One hitting smg.
I can't agree with this at all. For me, only MG should be able to 1 tap units. This is the best way to represent the overall dominance of MG firepower.

2. Maximum damage of 28 for rifleman.
Too much... Currently, they can build and have a minimum of 20dmg from grenades. With the HP and all, yes, they would be dominant but they would also be way too dominant.

This is why one of my suggestion is to remove them from TC.

b. If you find it hard, why dont we base them on historical organization of SMG?

Cause I made this suggestion from what's already in game. If @Stratego (dev) would agree to just remove theem in exchange of grenade thrower then thats fine too. We could just make the officers to have this stats and remove their building capability.

Also, you might have forgotten to tell your real suggestion here. I don't see any at all that is gamiefied.

...

2. What do you mean between? What I am saying is just buffing their close quarter capability. And it is represented in game through clearing units inside a structure in game. And I am looking forward to it.

I assumed you wanted for them be able to hit inside barracks and buildings where they normally can't attack inside. THIS IS EITHER A NO FOR ALL UNITS OR YES.

but if you want them to just have a plus damage inside buildings. Then I think it's possible. If this is what you want then I could change the stats again and make their damage even more low just and high inside buildings only.

3. They wont be weak or too strong if you increase their hp and damage slightly. They should not one shot units, only some AT squads and SMG (if smg hp is reduced). Their increase in hp represents their organization in real life. Which are a lot of men armed with rifle.

Like I said, it's hard. Try to look at every squad numbers and the one higher organization level then you would too find it hard. Most level of organization between some of the factions are just WAY TOO different from each other.

Ex. I believe there's one faction with 30 soldiers in one unit and 50 for Japan. (Of course factoring skills and all then it would be even more harder)

4. Yes. SMG in game kinda works fine for now, not too spammy. Maybe we should rework riflemen first. Then Shoulder AT squads because they are really useless in game currently

This is impossible for me unless no changes is done first to other types of infantry which for many and even @Stratego (dev), they said they want changes and I do to.

[DreJaDe]

It seems that this suggestion is out.

@Jasondunkel
@SS-Jericho
Seems to want more damage

@SS-Jericho
Want their HP so most will anti infantry will 1 hit them

@Stratego (dev)
Want all their grenades decreased in damage value.

@TntAttack
Seems to be ok with just removing their grenades.
But he's also in suggestion of making smg to cost 3 which Im kinda ok too except that it would be more costly than MGs which is kinda odd

@DreJaDe
And I want their anti tank grenade increase even more now that the tank armor have been increased and I have a lot of tank superiority in many of my games due to it.

Their damage to not 1 hit everyone.

Remove their anti inf grenades to not double their anti inf dominance.

...
Overall

I think, we need to put what we really want for now and focus on that.

[SS-Jericho]

1. One hitting smg.

I did not said they will 1 hit anything. They will be able to kill 1 infantry in one turn with the help of grenades. They have 2 action turns. If they have low hp they will get countered attack and get killed without grenades.

2. Maximum damage of 28 for rifleman

That is not too much because they only have 1 action turn. So they cannot 1 hit anything. Plus if you include the ability of smg to shoot inside or damage inside then their problem of building sandbag bunker is already solved.

I understand that is difficult for you because the more accurate we try the more complicated it goes. That is why on my first message i said to only reduce their HP by 5 based from your suggestion of HP then adjust some that are imbalance.

My suggestion is to not have more damage for SMG. What I mean is that they should retain their current attack power instead of nerfing them. While aggreeing to implement the infantry grenade changes you suggested. As well as the additional anti tank grenade you suggested before to highlight urban anti tank advantage.

Your suggestion makes them a mountaineer. A weak close combat unit. Then making them an anti-tank infantry. Even though you know that that is not how they work. Then removing their anti infantry grenade which highlights their ability in game.

What I want is to make the SMG a close quarter anti-infa try.

Basically

SMG ---> MG
Riflemen -----> SMG
MG ------> riflemen

[Jasondunkel]

ne should actually be less but apparently I could not calculate properly last night

later the calculation will be better

[DreJaDe]

I did not said they will 1 hit anything.

Yes you did.

Here

While buffing the riflemen will allow them to one tap SMG and several other units as well.

If you misunderstand. I was talking about rifleman here
one tapping smg as you said.

That is not too much because they only have 1 action turn. So they cannot 1 hit anything. Plus if you include the ability of smg to shoot inside or damage inside then their problem of building sandbag bunker is already solved

Why this is too much is because it will mostly leave most infantry with almost no HP. Leaving like 2-10hp which is for me is too much.

Im ok with 2 hits but yeah, if it's 1 turn hit then having 28 is a bit much. Closer to 20dmg is the thing I imagine where they will still leave 10-20 HP where there's still room for healing even with just the TC.

I wanted this game to continue the fast pace nature but not that where most units will become a banzai unit that can be thrown anytime. I want players to conserve unit by giving hope like how Tanks work currently (besides many players who likes to banzai their tanks)

I have gain this idea from artillery and bombs where I would send my infantry back and let them heal. It helped me in so many games and win unlike my enemy who just keeps charging.

My suggestion is to not have more damage for SMG. What I mean is that they should retain their current attack power instead of nerfing them. While aggreeing to implement the infantry grenade changes you suggested. As well as the additional anti tank grenade you suggested before to highlight urban anti tank advantage.

I don't know if im misunderstanding something but this is no nerf. This is a rework.

Some of them got powerful, some of them got weaker. Most of them will retain their 1 turn kill nature even without the grenade.

They will still be strong except without the powerful grenade which I want to reserve for rifleman for now.

Basically

SMG ---> MG
Riflemen -----> SMG
MG ------> riflemen

For me it's more like
MG-> anti infantry "Defensive"
Rifleman-> anti infantry "Offensive"
SMG-> versatile anti infantry and tanks

[SS-Jericho]

If you misunderstand. I was talking about rifleman here
one tapping smg as you said.

Okay, but your explanation looks like you are talking about smg. Because riflemen can only one tap SMG and AT rifle, and some that have higher hp would not be. MG would still be dominant.

1. One hitting smg.
I can't agree with this at all. For me, only MG should be able to 1 tap units. This is the best way to represent the overall dominance of MG firepower.

Im ok with 2 hits but yeah, if it's 1 turn hit then having 28 is a bit much. Closer to 20dmg

This is negotiable, I think it is just fine to keep game fast because smg would no longer be OP. But i can agree with 20-25

I don't know if im misunderstanding something but this is no nerf. This is a rework

Nerfing is part of a rework. You are making the SMG attack power weaker. Are you not addressing the wrong issue here? They should still be good at close combat just not in the open.

They will still be strong except without the powerful grenade which I want to reserve for rifleman for now.

Removal of grenade really does not make sense. Because you are removing their most important ability that represents them from real life. In game, grenades of smg are really pleasurable to use (even if its damage will be reduced).

For me it's more like
MG-> anti infantry "Defensive"
Rifleman-> anti infantry "Offensive"
SMG-> versatile anti infantry and tanks

This does not clearly show their best use whether in game or not.

MG can be used for offensive as well. They are very used for offensive by pinning down enemy unit to give way for close combat unit. In game they are also used to attack blobs of infantry.

Riflemen are also very used for defending. They are used for volley fire and to fill the flanks. In game, they are currently used to build to delay enemy. Soon they should have high hp to cover other defensive units.

SMG is not a versatile anti infantry, they are only good when they get close. They should be able to throw grenades and clear close positions.

And they are not anti-tank infantry. They are only last resort anti-tank and close quarter anti-tank. That is why i want them to have low hp. So they are not used to charged in the open and kill tanks. But rather used in town ambush or mechanized (trucks/vehicle) to rush tanks. That way they are a lot shown better as smg.

Furthermore, why do you want the smg to become an anti-tank? They are not, AT-rifle and Bazooka squads should be the Anti-tank in game. And it is currently useless and not prioritize for rework.

[DreJaDe]

This does not clearly show their best use whether in game or not.

At this point to the end. I think you are now confusing the game logic and the real life logic in our conversation. Cause im telling you, I could also say the same to the one you made.

On some other parts... You are actually right and that's one of the point. Being defensive doesn't mean that you can't use them offensively... It's just like throwing knife or using a gun as a club.

Ex.
Pinning down an enemy is can both be used offensively and defensively. Though the act of pinning down itself is defensive in nature.

You don't need to take them literally. Its just that from seeing your point, you want a rock paper logic that doesn't really work well for this game cause in real life. All three of them are anti infantry IRL

I'll just make this like what you did to explain essier
MG > All infantry
SMG > all infantry
Rifleman > SMG, MG
Though using this, it really explain it greatly as it would seems that rifleman in my suggestion is worse than both even though they would be able to actually kill them through combination.

This is your suggestion part
Rifleman = SMG
Even if rifleman can kill SMG with 1 hit, in your suggestion. Though if you still want to increase their HP to not be 1 hit... Rifleman would be a three turn unit...

SMG is not a versatile anti infantry, they are only good when they get close.

"And tank" pls read.

They are versatile cause they are good against infantry while also good at dealing with tanks.

Furthermore, why do you want the smg to become an anti-tank? They are not, AT-rifle and Bazooka squads should be the Anti-tank in game. And it is currently useless and not prioritize for rework

Cause they already are... That's the part where they become versatile... I don't understands how you didn't get that... They literally have an "anti tank" grenade. Of course they are anti tank.

Even if you decrease their HP to 1. They are still an anti-tank unit.

[SS-Jericho]

The point is that your logic does not highlight the best use of the infantry.

Riflemen is not the best anti infantry "offensive". They can't rush because their rate of fire is slow. That is why they are not the best counter for MG (which is the "defensive"). Riflemen are only a line infantry. The middle one, where smg/flamer are the assultier while MG is the support.

MG may be the best anti infantry "defensive". Which is also my point, that is why it counters all units inlcuding riflemen.

SMG should not be good at dealing with tanks. And they should not be versatile. They can't fight in the open as to riflemen will lose to them in close combat. They are not designated anti-tank as well as they only work at very close range compared to shoulder AT.

In game they are not categorize as anti-tank, so other units dont have damage bonus against them like the riflemen. They only have anti-tank capabilities but that does not mean they are an "Anti-tank". It is also the same in real life.

Tbh I want their anti-tank grenade damage to be reduced, but instead I want them to have more. Only if their hp is reduced so players won't use it out in the open. And instead, become a killer ambush in towns and through mechanized spearheads that most experienced players do.

And despite your refutation, it no longer argue that my suggestion would not work.

[DreJaDe]

I basically have the same comment to what you did.
You're suggestion also does not highlight the best use of the infantry...

Riflemen is not the best anti infantry "offensive".

For the last time... You're taking it literally. It's not a literal thing. There's no "the best".
I don't think you're getting the point here and just repeating yourself.

The last sample I could give is panzer IV tank. You can use them offensively but there's no way they are the best Tiger tank can do that JOB even better though was used MORE defensively than in an offensivee.

SMG should not be good at dealing with tanks. And they should not be versatile.

But yes they are... Unless you remove their anti tank grenade or reduce the damage of their grenade to 1 which also makes the grenade useless anyway.

They can't fight in the open as to riflemen will lose to them in close combat.

But in you're suggestion, they still can and will be used as such. You want them as sacrificial unit, and people will use as such. There's no way people will just differentiate it's use against tc and in open.

And despite your refutation, it no longer argue that my suggestion would not work.

I never argued this. I just don't agree with the way you want the game to work. Like the 28 damage.

They only have anti-tank capabilities but that does not mean they are an "Anti-tank". It is also the same in real life.

Yes, it means as such... And if you have agreed with my suggestion in AT grenades then pls look again as I didn't decrease their damage. I increased them.

And in real life, they are not the one who have it anyway and even the unit who have a bazooka will not also be called as an AT unit. It's part of a big group. Basically like the at grenade.

BOTH ARE JUST PART OF THEIR KIT

Only if their hp is reduced so players won't use it out in the open

Pls try to look at it again... With you're suggestion. This instead would instead suggest for players to use them as such and just sacrifice this unit and there's no way I want SMG who among all factions have the users being better than normal infantrymen to be used as such.

I want players to be more careful with their attack and save the unit. No way I want this sacrificial unit that will is only so good at offensive

[SS-Jericho]

At this point I think we just don't understand each other, it is not going anywhere.

The last sample I could give is panzer IV tank. You can use them offensively but there's no way they are the best Tiger tank can do that JOB even better though was used MORE defensively than in an offensivee

Why would you use tanks as comparison? Tanks are more varied and has lots of uses compared to the organization of infantry.

For instance, SMG is the best for close combat because they use automatic weapons and are equipped with grenades, How is that wrong? What other unit can do it better? SMG is not the best in open because of their range. And it is not a versatile anti infantry "offensive"/"defensive" and "anti-tank".
So SMG--> MG in the logic that whenever SMG shoots it means it got close so they should dominate. Low hp in a sense they are in open and so players wint charge them in the open and used sparringly as they are.

In what world SMG is a good anti-tank? Their AT grenades limited range makes soldier crawl near tanks and cost their life. So they should only be good in urban and mechanized formation..

, they still can and will be used as such

The answer to this is your answer a while ago. They will only be used to gain an objective advantage as SMG are being used right now. But once their HP is reduce, it will be less because they will die easily if they wont take care of them.

And in real life, they are not the one who have it anyway and even the unit who have a bazooka will not also be called as an AT unit. It's part of a big group.

You are now just explaining what you know. Even Panzergrenadiers squad in a tank division with a squad size of 6-12 men are equipped with single panzerschreck. Now the panzerschreck is an anti-tank, but their bundle grenade does not make them an anti-tank.
You want soldiers running to tanks, throw grenade, get shot, get awarded in their funeral? That also why they should have low hp. Some AT grenades are also used as anti-infantry and wooden pillboxes. Even so, in game they are not categorize as anti-tank

It will not be a sacrificial unit. Because of their low hp they would die first before they can do anything IF they are NOT used right. So if riflemen are buffed they would be the first threat and have "higher value" than an SMG. In real life, are'nt they also like that? Without cover it will be a massacre.

In game because of their current high hp, players are comfortable to just walk them around in the open. Wait for target, if there is a tank, there is a good fish. Is that even right?

But maybe I am wrong, because this is a forum, things can be a fact or an opinion. So maybe you are right.

[Dahdee]

DreJaDe I like your overall vision of how you want the SMG to operate. I also like what Tnt said about making them cost 3, and agree with what you (DreJaDe) said about the inability to justify having SMG cost more than MG.

I would say increase both the cost of MG and SMG to 3.

Realistically The MG is going to be a more expensive weapon system and it's ability to one hit kill makes the cost increase justifiable too. As for the SMG units, their versatility makes the cost of 2 too cheap.

Should not cost the same to produce SMG as basic grunt rifleman or very impressive (facetious) AT infantry.

[Dahdee]

I'd also like to see SMG have a bonus vs units in TC (an urban combat bonus)

[Dahdee]

I would also favor a pivot away from using SMG as the main anti armor infantry. I'd like to see it's bonuses favor close quarter combat.

Not sure if it's possible, but I'm for greater bonuses vs armor attacked in Tc, but not in the open.

Also for buffs when SMG is in Tc

Buffs when attacking and defending in trench and bunker.

[Jasondunkel]

sorry for not posting here for so long.

but in real life there was and is a lot going on.
I would like to change it like this.

1. drejade your suggestion for the SMG will be accepted.
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.

Since the light tanks are in the game with 3 round costs, this is not a contradiction

3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power

[TntAttack]

sorry for not posting here for so long.

but in real life there was and is a lot going on.
I would like to change it like this.

1. drejade your suggestion for the SMG will be accepted.
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.

Since the light tanks are in the game with 3 round costs, this is not a contradiction

3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power

2. About time. Will their anti grenade damages stay the same? What about their anti infantry damages. Both I think are a tiny bit too high.

3. I really like this suggestion, no first strike though I reckon. My only concern is what to do about mortar infantry range... Should we increase it? Otherwise a regular rifleman will have to same range as a mortar Unit.

Actually, it's not a bad idea. Increase mortar range to 3 while you are at it.

Edit: I realised this might made mortars a bit too op so seem trade-offs... Either
- Mortar Unit costs 3
- Mortar Unit Damage reduction
- Mortar Unit range from 2-3 so it can't hit units right next to it.