Reform.: SMG renaming, stats renewal and overall overhaul IMPLEMENTED

[Jasondunkel]

sorry for not posting here for so long.

but in real life there was and is a lot going on.
I would like to change it like this.

1. drejade your suggestion for the SMG will be accepted.
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.

Since the light tanks are in the game with 3 round costs, this is not a contradiction

3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power

2. About time. Will their anti grenade damages stay the same? What about their anti infantry damages. Both I think are a tiny bit too high.

3. I really like this suggestion, no first strike though I reckon. My only concern is what to do about mortar infantry range... Should we increase it? Otherwise a regular rifleman will have to same range as a mortar Unit.

Actually, it's not a bad idea. Increase mortar range to 3 while you are at it.

Edit: I realised this might made mortars a bit too op so seem trade-offs... Either
- Mortar Unit costs 3
- Mortar Unit Damage reduction
- Mortar Unit range from 2-3 so it can't hit units right next to it.

at the moment I would leave the damage as it is from the grants.
as i suggested if the rifleman should get a range increase then the rifleman and the mortar would have the same range

if we increase the range of mortars we would have to give the tanks a longer range as well

[DreJaDe]

2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.

A double nerf?
I think one is enough (either 3 turns or exclusive to barracks) and test if its still OP.

3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power

Either first strike or 2 range.

To be honest, I like them to just have an increased damage but with that...

[TntAttack]

sorry for not posting here for so long.

but in real life there was and is a lot going on.
I would like to change it like this.

1. drejade your suggestion for the SMG will be accepted.
2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.

Since the light tanks are in the game with 3 round costs, this is not a contradiction

3. I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power

2. About time. Will their anti grenade damages stay the same? What about their anti infantry damages. Both I think are a tiny bit too high.

3. I really like this suggestion, no first strike though I reckon. My only concern is what to do about mortar infantry range... Should we increase it? Otherwise a regular rifleman will have to same range as a mortar Unit.

Actually, it's not a bad idea. Increase mortar range to 3 while you are at it.

Edit: I realised this might made mortars a bit too op so seem trade-offs... Either
- Mortar Unit costs 3
- Mortar Unit Damage reduction
- Mortar Unit range from 2-3 so it can't hit units right next to it.

at the moment I would leave the damage as it is from the grants.
as i suggested if the rifleman should get a range increase then the rifleman and the mortar would have the same range

if we increase the range of mortars we would have to give the tanks a longer range as well

Either:
- You increase the ranges of mortars, tanks...
Or
- Give mortars a 3 range ability that deals less damage than its base non ability damage. Enough to harass the enemy, if you were following my thread about giving mortars a supression effect, here would be where to put it. A light suppressed effect will do e.g. -1 attack or defense or speed.

I personally think it's better to increase the range of tanks, but it's not a simple task so a quicker solution might be preferable.


Also. I agree with Drejade with the double nerf. One nerf should be enough. For convenience, making smgs cost 3 is more balanced and fair overall.

[DreJaDe]

Actually, it's not a bad idea. Increase mortar range to 3 while you are at it.

Be careful, not all mortar have higher range than normal guns.

The british and german actually used 2inch mortar that only have 500m range. With even effective range only reaching like 100m.

Literally many SMG outrange that.

I suggest like SMG and MG, just name them.

[Stratego (dev)]

yes, mortars should be range 1 (and was that earlier) - it was only changed because of player requests... but totally non historical having bigger range than eg. tank guns.

[DreJaDe]

yes, mortars should be range 1 (and was that earlier) - it was only changed because of player requests... but totally non historical having bigger range than eg. tank guns.

Okay okay... Although I said there are mortars with small range, many mortars used actually have range more than 3km.

You have US m1 and m2
British 4.2 inch
German 10cm
...

Then there's
Soviet M1938
6km range dude

Tank guns may have a lot of range but that is only straight shooting which can lead to obstacles or the 45degree rule.

[Stratego (dev)]

sure those can hae 2 range legally.
but the < 1,5km mortars should not.

[Dahdee]

I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power

I like the idea of increasing rifleman range to 2. I'm not sure I like the first strike thing though.

That being said, if we were to add an ability like digging a foxhole to rifleman, I think adding first strike would then be appropriate.

[Dahdee]

yes, mortars should be range 1 (and was that earlier) - it was only changed because of player requests... but totally non historical having bigger range than eg. tank guns.

Okay okay... Although I said there are mortars with small range, many mortars used actually have range more than 3km.

You have US m1 and m2
British 4.2 inch
German 10cm
...

Then there's
Soviet M1938
6km range dude

Tank guns may have a lot of range but that is only straight shooting which can lead to obstacles or the 45degree rule.

Can we do something to make the mortars of different armies represent their real life counterparts, instead of the one size fits all range they currently have?

[Dahdee]

Also, I 100% agree with the SMG rebalance that this thread was originally about.

[SS-Jericho]

Can we do something to make the mortars of different armies represent their real life counterparts, instead of the one size fits all range they currently have?

The problem with this is every nation uses different types of mortars. Allies are fond with light mortars 60mm which has a short range for infantry support. The germans and russians mostly uses the 81/82mm mortar (2-3km range), and they also field 120mm mortars (6km range).

Maybe focus on the mortars that have more than 1.5km but not the heavy mortars? So every nations have their base unit of mortar. And other types of mortar may just be added in the future.

[DreJaDe]

Maybe focus on the mortars that have more than 1.5km but not the heavy mortars? So every nations have their base unit of mortar. And other types of mortar may just be added in the future.

I do have a plan on naming the mortars and separating the two from light to heavy.

If you look at the images, I created the base of the two types there in case I continued.

Though not much for now cause... I have yet to still see some of the approved updates.

[Stratego (dev)]

I would like to give the riflemen a range advantage so that they get range 2 and optionally a first strike, but leave the actual attack power

I like the idea of increasing rifleman range to 2. I'm not sure I like the first strike thing though.

That being said, if we were to add an ability like digging a foxhole to rifleman, I think adding first strike would then be appropriate.

they should not have 2 range.
all ranges should be increased than and all units will be more than one range.
half o mechanics would vanish and plaayability reduced

[DreJaDe]

they should not have 2 range.
all ranges should be increased than and all units will be more than one range.
half o mechanics would vanish and plaayability reduced

Looking at it again. Rifleman having two range is indeed weird cause firefights even in modern standard only get to 500m max.

And its kinda useless to even do so cause you usually cant see the enemy at that distance.

In most cases, everyone is just shooting against each other by actually shooting in the general direction instead of like games and movies where you can actually see the enemy.

First strike is nice but tbh, I think rifleman having higher damage than smg would be even better or even just the same.

[Dahdee]

I think rifleman having higher damage than smg would be even better or even just the same.

I would support this.

[Jasondunkel]

I suggested range two for the riffleman because the german standard rifle could effectively shoot up to 2 km. English wiki says 1 km but a maximum range of almost 4.5 km
since the attack power is low, the riffleman would be improved a bit. especially because it is the actual core of the respective infantry.

But we should discuss that in another area, just like with the mortars

So I open two new topics

drejade says yes he wants to revise the gunmen

so to finish the smg:

you get the production costs of 3 may be built in cities and barracks

everyone agree??

[Dahdee]

I agree

[TntAttack]

Agree.

[DreJaDe]

Agree

[Stratego (dev)]

I suggested range two for the riffleman because the german standard rifle could effectively shoot up to 2 km. English wiki says 1 km but a maximum range of almost 4.5 km

but if we accept this than we should increase all tank ranges too - that is not possible.

[Stratego (dev)]

final list of changes to smg (from email by Jasondunkel)

ALL smg Units gets cost 3
-----------------------------------
Common stats
(besides when written specifically under specific smg unit)
action: 2
Attack: 2
Speed: 3

Bonus
%700 - Vehicle Non combat
%400 - Buildings
%1000 - Heavy Buildings

US Thompson SMG
HP: 30
Action: 3

Bonus
%600 - infantry

British Sten SMG
HP: 35

Bonus
%850 - infantry

German Mp40 SMG
HP: 32

Bonus
%900 - infantry

Soviet Ppd
HP: 40
Action: 3

Bonus
%550 - infantry

French Mas-38
Hp: 38

Bonus
%700 - infantry

Japanese Type 100 smg
HP: 40

Bonus
%700 - infantry

Italian Beretta Model 38
HP: 32

Bonus
%800 - Infantry

[SS-Jericho]

What about the damage bonus for Chinese SMG? Should it be changed or be left untouched?

[Stratego (dev)]

@DreJaDe please suggest chienese smg too, we need to change that too as we changed all others already.

[DreJaDe]

Here

Chinese Bermann SMG
HP: 42
Atk: 2

Bonus:
%600 infantry

[Stratego (dev)]

is it the "MP 18" smg? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_18

also bonus against only infantry?

other smg units have various bonuses eg:
"trnBonusList":[
{ "modifier":7, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_VEHICLE_NONCOMBAT" ] } },
{ "modifier":8, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_INFANTRY" ] } },
{ "modifier":4, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_BUILDINGS" ] } },
{ "modifier":10, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_GROUND_BUILDING_MEGA" ] } }
],

[DreJaDe]

is it the "MP 18" smg? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_18

also bonus against only infantry?

other smg units have various bonuses eg:

Yes and

There is a common stats for all smg I defined on the initial posts on this suggestion. Meaning that its not just bonus for infantry.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok, please write here what bonuses should i set - thanks!

[Stratego (dev)]

ok, for now i set this, tll me if ok.

"trnBonusList":[
{ "modifier":7, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_VEHICLE_NONCOMBAT" ] } },
{ "modifier":6, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_INFANTRY" ] } },
{ "modifier":4, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_BUILDINGS" ] } },
{ "modifier":10, "unitList":{ "categories":[ "U_GROUND_BUILDING_MEGA" ] } }
],

--------------
alkso i set the cost to 3 as i see all other smg goes to 3

[Jasondunkel]

2. since the smg has both grenades they are elite the production should be increased to 3 cost. since they are elite they will only be able to be built in the barracks.

A double nerf?
I think one is enough (either 3 turns or exclusive to barracks) and test if its still OP.

after testing i think it is still OP . i still see the smg in barracks

[DreJaDe]

after testing i think it is still OP . i still see the smg in barracks

Against 4 turn tanks?

I usually need more than 2-3 smg to defeat one tank.

Thats already more too much considering now that smg now cost 3 turns. That means i need more than 6 turn worth of smf for 4 turn tank.

This makes the anti gun more of an option but Im honestly on the opinion of barracks exclusive smg now than the 3 turn in the 3turn vs barracks exclusive nerf for smg.