Submarines balance #2

[DreJaDe]

@TntAttack
@Stratego (dev)

Here's what I noticed.

Now with the new update. The subs lost
3 types of counters
-Plane counter
-Cruiser counter
-Sub counter

Reason
They all can't use torpedo against submerged subs.

Bugs
-Planes can still normally attack submerge subs
-The timer doesn't restart even when I resurfaced
-Concrete AA can hit submerge subs

What I think is bugs
-Planes can still use bombs against subs
-Subs are trained with the 1 CD before being able to resurface.

My opinion
I think they kinda became more powerful
Losing 3 counters is really a lot. Surfacing only for 1 turn isn't that many so I think if it's like this, we should also use the logic of retaking oxygen like making the 1 turn CD to 3 also.

Or my other suggestion which is to just let subs hit surface ships when they are surfaced also

[TntAttack]

Aircraft (esp allied) can get special bombing ability for subs, but honestly just it's too much of a hassle.

What about nerfing the torpedo damage of subs overall, and esp against destroyers so it's harder for subs to counter its own counter via numbers.

[Stratego (dev)]

They all can't use torpedo against submerged subs.

i thought we talked torpedoes that time were not able to kill a submerged sub (even if that was launched from ship or plane)
it is not true?

-Planes can still normally attack submerge subs
-Concrete AA can hit submerge subs
-Planes can still use bombs against subs

i believe i have not toouched this, so this was earlier too, shall i remove?

-The timer doesn't restart even when I resurfaced

this one i try to check as i am not sure what u mean.

-Subs are trained with the 1 CD before being able to resurface.

i wrote it on tasklist that i can do it only like this (when surfaced sub spawn sill start cooldowning (even from factory, or from submerge)

Or my other suggestion which is to just let subs hit surface ships when they are surfaced also

i believe subs can hit ships whether they are submerged or not - arent they?

[Stratego (dev)]

-The timer doesn't restart even when I resurfaced

ok i checked and the problem is:
-Transforming the sub is set to keep all running effects.

problem:
- if i set on transfomation that subs lose all their abilities than they will lose all OTHER active effects too like "burning" or "poisoned" like things.
- naturally they do not "burn" or "poisoned", but is there any "sticky" effect that should remain on subs during submerge/surface?
- if there is no such effect than i can simply set "keep all running effects" to OFF.

[DreJaDe]

i believe subs can hit ships whether they are submerged or not - arent they?

My suggestion is that subs cann only use torpedo when surfaced and not be able to use it when submerged.

i believe i have not toouched this, so this was earlier too, shall i remove?

Yeah, I think you should. How could plane guns or aa hit submerged subs? That's the question.

i thought we talked torpedoes that time were not able to kill a submerged sub (even if that was launched from ship or plane)
it is not true?

Tbh, I wanted to test it also if it's not OP or is and if my judgement is just clouded by not being able to see it.

but is there any "sticky" effect that should remain on subs during submerge/surface?

There isn't so I think it's fine.

[Stratego (dev)]

My suggestion is that subs cann only use torpedo when surfaced and not be able to use it when submerged.

it think the main goal of subs would vanish, i would keep it.

[TntAttack]

-The timer doesn't restart even when I resurfaced

Are you testing this on a dev pre released version? If you are, can I have access as well?

[Stratego (dev)]

sure, email me

[Stratego (dev)]

also i ahve fixed
- planes can not shoot subs
- sub timeout effect will wanish on transform

uos 10

[Stratego (dev)]

wait i set concrete AA too.
i see they can shoot everything, shall i set
a) ALL excepts subs
b) OR (like other AA units) only Air units?

[DreJaDe]

wait i set concrete AA too.
i see they can shoot everything, shall i set
a) ALL excepts subs
b) OR (like other AA units) only Air units?

It's fine like this for now

[Stratego (dev)]

which?

[DreJaDe]

which?

Sry, all except subs

[Stratego (dev)]

ok:)
meanwhile i did the other way: now all AA shoot the same targets.
i think all should work same way, if we want "all-subs" than all AA should also have that

or what you and others think?

[TntAttack]

ok:)
meanwhile i did the other way: now all AA shoot the same targets.
i think all should work same way, if we want "all-subs" than all AA should also have that

or what you and others think?

So all aa including concrete aa can only target air?
If so, I am fine with that.

Else, I misunderstood you.

[Stratego (dev)]

So all aa including concrete aa can only target air?

yes

[DreJaDe]

So all aa including concrete aa can only target air?

yes

I'm ok with them with being able to hit some ground units.

Lore (irl) wise, it's a thing that happens.

[Stratego (dev)]

for me too - others what u think?

[TntAttack]

Since I can't play my normal games without breaking the game (as I am in a naval battle with Freddy, and well, there are subs existing already), it's fine if I fight Drejade right? (Assuming he has the dev version as well?)


P.S About the aa shooting everyone or not. I don't know. Nothing really pops up when I hear it.

[DreJaDe]

Since I can't play my normal games without breaking the game (as I am in a naval battle with Freddy, and well, there are subs existing already), it's fine if I fight Drejade right? (Assuming he has the dev version as well?)

You might have trained a new unit... If it's still the old unit. Its still should be fine.

Though the fireman might have done it for you which technically have a new skill now.

I'm definitely down to a game

[TntAttack]

I know this isn't the right place, but suppose I saved my account, migrated back to the normal public version, will the game break cause I brought extra upgrades that haven't came out yet?

Ideally I would like to be am to swap between versions to continue playing my normal match's and against Drejade. Btw I already made the much, passwords Sub.

[Stratego (dev)]

it will not break it i think.
you can try.

[Dahdee]

Sorry, replying about the AA hitting ground targets, but couldn't post it direct to that remark. I think any AA that is capable of level or negative elevation traverse should be capable of firing on a ground target with a negative modifier. Those traverse ranges are generally included in the online info for each AA gun. The issue for the bunker type AA guns being able to do this would be determined by figuring out first exactly what type of gun is this generic AA emplacement building representing IRL.

[DreJaDe]

Sorry, replying about the AA hitting ground targets, but couldn't post it direct to that remark. I think any AA that is capable of level or negative elevation traverse should be capable of firing on a ground target with a negative modifier. Those traverse ranges are generally included in the online info for each AA gun. The issue for the bunker type AA guns being able to do this would be determined by figuring out first exactly what type of gun is this generic AA emplacement building representing IRL.

I think it's better to not name them as not all faction might have them... This is one of those few common units each faction could have which is equal to each other.

If there's a named one, I think it's better for them to just have a unit of their own.
.

[Dahdee]

That is acceptable to me. In the broader sense though, I think this should apply to named units as well, such as Bofors just for example. Probably for a different discussion, but relevant to throw the idea out while we are talking about AA hitting ground units. Negative elevation traverse means you can fire it (admittedly with poor results, reflected by the negative modifier suggestion) at a ground target.

[Stratego (dev)]

Banzai about subs:

I dont really get the submarines. There are multiple ideas. So how are they gonna change? Ive talked about submarines begin op in the past with Jason. For me the main problem is their low cost, high damage and hard to deal with when spammed. I think all submarines should be longer to produce ( mainly the ones that cost just 2).

I agree with drejade that they are vulnerable when attack but I dont think it really matters since the main problem is the high attack with low cost. So person dont really care if they die after the attack because its just 2 cost.

so as i understand he says increase all subs +1 cost so cheapest is 3, TNT said some similar as i remember.

[DreJaDe]

My idea of balancing them is to let the cost stay but to make them more of a gamble to take.

On the statement of Banzai... All to more, the end. That's actually one reason why Germany made such move. Cause they are spammable...

If it's indeed followed
The problem then is that. What's going to happen to some of the subs? Gato which is literally faster to make than all subs and are 2 times lesser cost of Sumner destroyer Is now going to be 4 cost? That's kinda bad.

Well, Banzai did also agree to my other suggestion (wow, for the first time).

And actually, in my latest naval games. I've been starting loom over if I really want to build submarine. Kinda starting to work if I have to say.

[Stratego (dev)]

this topic is also stucked, please answer these
Q1: is current balance is not good? so do we have balance problem?
Q2: if we have balance problem: what is the balance problem atm?

[DreJaDe]

In my side, there are still not that much info.

In all honesty, now im more spamming destroyers and not submarines but this is just me.