Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

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TntAttack
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Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by TntAttack » Thu Nov 17, 2022 12:33 am

How I see it currently is this.

- Should we empower defensive units like aa and anti tank gun with first strike?
- Whether abilities should take damage before effect.


1. Good in theory, but with the high damage aa have anyways, it's restrictive for aircraft to fight back.

Realism is not always ideal. I feel like at this point it doesn't even matter too much, players usually would use stronger bombers with area bombing to take out the aa 2 tiles away.

I'll rather players have better bombing experience than a not good bombing experience because bombers are expensive in comparison.

As for anti tank guns, I do see the appeal in an anti tank gun holding down a defensive position. For this I say do like the concept, but I am not too sure of the balance.

Germany holds the best anti tank, so it's pretty tough on other fractions.

2. Honestly. No.

We have anti infantry ability, anti tank ability, bombing ability, depth charging, torpedo ability, sweep out flame ability, light/medium/heavy aa ability.

Realism dictates these abilities should get counterattacked. Abilities are like special power ups a unit gets. What significance does an infantry unit receiving damage do when throwing a grenade?

Should we favour the attacker or the defender?
Last edited by TntAttack on Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

Jasondunkel
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Re: Ability FirstStrike

Post by Jasondunkel » Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:50 pm

summarized:
under the current conditions you don't like first strike against abilities.


I would wish for the first strike against abilities with 25-50% here says stratego that it is unfortunately not possible. I still hope that there is a way to program it. many things that weren't possible before are now possible

TntAttack
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Re: Ability FirstStrike or Not

Post by TntAttack » Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:28 pm

Perhaps we could think a bit more radically.

How about a counter ability that disables the attacker's ability?

E..g MG vs smg

Mg shoots smg, disables grenade ability. Cooldown can be adjusted.

E.g. aa vs bomber

Aa shoots bomber, bomber bombing ability disabled. Cooldown can be adjusted.

Destroyer vs sub

Destroyer depth charges sub, sub surfaces and torpedo ability is disabled.

Of course this concept would meant a lot of damage rebalancing, of which I haven't thought too carefully of. But on the face of it, perhaps decreasing unit counters' damage values (E.g. Aa to air, destroyers to sub) might increase the longevity of a individual unit and thus prolonged the player's experience of controlling a particular unit.

(Which should be more fun compared to the currently almost one hit one kill encounters with destroyers and aa right now)

Stratego (dev)
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Re: Ability FirstStrike or Not

Post by Stratego (dev) » Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:32 pm

tbh i dont really understand the main point of Tnt.
please help me with clear statements,
a) do u like to give counter against abilites at all? so is there any case u like being that way (eg. earlier AA had first strinke against aircrafts)
b) do u like to give counter against abilites to several units? so not only aicrafts but something else, if so what/which units?
c) you dont like to have any first strike against any ability
d) you dont like to have any first strike against any ability not any attack(non ability attack).

so i am not sure what is the "side" you are on.

thanks!
-------------
as jasondunkel:
I would wish for the first strike against abilities with 25-50%
you mean a probability (chance)?

TntAttack
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Re: Ability FirstStrike or Not

Post by TntAttack » Mon Dec 05, 2022 2:39 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Sun Dec 04, 2022 8:32 pm
tbh i dont really understand the main point of Tnt.
please help me with clear statements,
a) do u like to give counter against abilites at all? so is there any case u like being that way (eg. earlier AA had first strinke against aircrafts)
b) do u like to give counter against abilites to several units? so not only aicrafts but something else, if so what/which units?
c) you dont like to have any first strike against any ability
d) you dont like to have any first strike against any ability not any attack(non ability attack).

so i am not sure what is the "side" you are on.

thanks!
-------------
as jasondunkel:
I would wish for the first strike against abilities with 25-50%
you mean a probability (chance)?
Initially I was (c) because I assumed that favouring the attacker (where attacker is the unit with an ability designed to counter the defender) would make for a better player experience.

E.g. Player builds 8 turn bomber, but it will get 3 shotted by aa so he has to quickly choose the best bombing location to attack before his bomber is destroyed on the enemy's turn.

With (a), the player with the bomber will have less locations to choose to attack else he risks taking on more damage. (E.g. the player would rather not bomb enemy aa)

So I am proposing something similar to (b), except instead of giving aa first strike against bomber's bombing ability, I suggest giving aa the ability to disable the bomber's bombing ability.

Summary: I am c, suggesting b, don't like a and not sure about d.

Note for the reply I am only using the example aa and bomber.

Most of the other unit and unit counters should be similar, but there might be some exceptions. E.g. destroyer vs sub.

Off topic.
What is the current census on currency dev? Will it be possible later on e.g unity version or entirely scrapped.

Because currency would require a lot of balances, which might influence my stance on whether abilities should get firststrike or not.

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Re: Ability FirstStrike or Not

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:24 am

off topics: please ask in its topic, not to mix here.

bomber-AA : as i see you think AA first strike should one shot bomber - but it should not. i mean if that take bomber half hp it is enough to have a first strike (as counterattack), would that be ok? (i think this was earlier when bombing was a default attack)

TntAttack
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Re: Ability FirstStrike or Not

Post by TntAttack » Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:24 am
Bomber-AA : as i see you think AA first strike should one shot bomber - but it should not. i mean if that take bomber half hp it is enough to have a first strike (as counterattack), would that be ok? (i think this was earlier when bombing was a default attack)
I am terribly sorry. I have written it poorly. I was imagining a scenario of multiple aa (about 3) against a single bomber.

I will skip the scenarios and give you a quick answer.

Infantry

1. Smg grenade and anti tank ability should receive counter attack damage.
- Note: Smg vs medium tanks/tank destroyers with high base damage would suffer due to their high counterattack.

2. Recommend giving anti tank infantry and bazooka an ability attack as well.
- Suggestion: let them receive 1/2 of the counterattack damage when attacking tanks.

3. Flamethrower/ Flamethrower tanks
- Flamethrower clear out ability should receive counter attack damage when attacking buildings.
However, due to low health of tanks and flamethrower infantry, they should receive no counterattack.

4. Smg Ability Vs Snipers

Snipers firststrike should take effect first. If Smg unit survives, then smg grenade ability will take effect.

Anti tank gun

- Should have counterattacks against tanks.

Suggestion:
- Decrease anti tank gun damage
- Give anti tank gun 2 attacks (actions), movement takes 1 action
- Movement costs actions. Anti tank gun has two actions and can move twice. E.g. Unit has one speed. Moves once. Loses one action. Can move again. Moves again. Has no more actions.

Suggestion 2: Classify anti tank guns into light and heavy anti tank guns.
- Light anti tank guns deal normal counter attack against medium/heavy tanks
- Heavy anti tank guns deal 2 times counter attack damage against medium/heavy tanks.

Naval
- Destroyers shouldn't receive any counter attacks against subs.
- Torpedo ability close range (e.g. surfaced sub/ship and ship right next to each other) should not have counter attack.
- Aircraft Carrier and battleship aa ability should not take counterattack damage from aircraft but I am open to suggests on how they could.

Air
- Missile ability against ground should receive no counter attack.
- Missile ability against bomber should not receive counter attack.

Bombing ability vs AA

- AA firstrike should take effect against Bomber's bombing ability.
Suggestion: Divide Bomber's bombing ability into two abilities. High attitude bombing and lower attitude bombing.
High attitude bombing: Higher area damage on nearby tiles, lower bombing ability damage.
Low attitude bombing: Less area damage on nearby tiles, higher bombing ability damage.

AA Firstrike deals 100% against low attitude bombing, and 50% damage against high attitude bombing. Or is it the other way around e.g. lower attitude bombing is harder to hit?


Suggestion:
- Decrease aa damage
- Give AA 2 attacks (actions), movement takes 1 action
- Movement costs actions. AA has two actions and can move twice. E.g. Unit has one speed. Moves once. Loses one action. Can move again. Moves again. Has no more actions.


Considerations:
- FirstStrike aa counterattack can be avoided by heavier bombing attacks on nearby units next to the aa.

Should this mechanic be kept or not.

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:59 am

Smg grenade and anti tank ability should receive counter attack damage.
wait we should distinguish 2 things:
1. "Counter attack"
- this executes when unit gets attacked by normal attack (CURRENTLY)
- and in FUTURE Question: should it be executed when gets attacked by ability(that is maybe set to be a "attack like" ability)

2. "First strike"
- this means if unit A having FIRST_STRIKE gets attacked (normal attack) by unit B than unit A attacks first, and B attacks after (if B still alive)
- and in FUTURE Question: should it be executed when gets attacked by ability(that is maybe set to be a "attack like" ability)

so i am not sure when you wrote that you ment "first strike" or "counter attack" only

TntAttack
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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by TntAttack » Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:09 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:59 am
Smg grenade and anti tank ability should receive counter attack damage.
wait we should distinguish 2 things:
1. "Counter attack"
- this executes when unit gets attacked by normal attack (CURRENTLY)
- and in FUTURE Question: should it be executed when gets attacked by ability(that is maybe set to be a "attack like" ability)
"Smg grenade and anti tank ability should receive counter attack damage" answers the future question.
Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:59 am

2. "First strike"
- this means if unit A having FIRST_STRIKE gets attacked (normal attack) by unit B than unit A attacks first, and B attacks after (if B still alive)
- and in FUTURE Question: should it be executed when gets attacked by ability(that is maybe set to be a "attack like" ability)

so i am not sure when you wrote that you ment "first strike" or "counter attack" only
"Snipers firststrike should take effect first. If Smg unit survives, then smg grenade ability will take effect."

"AA firststrike should take effect against Bomber's bombing ability"

These answers the future question.

For there are more unclear parts, please tell me. I am trying to be as clear as possible so any feedback would be nice.
Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 11:59 am
so i am not sure when you wrote that you ment "first strike" or "counter attack" only
The definitions of first strike and counter attack I used are the same as the one you provided.
Where I mention counter attack, I mean counter attack only.
Where I mention counter attack and an ability, I mean whether ability should get counterattack or not.
Where I mention first strike and an ability, I mean whether first strike should apply on ability or not.

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:22 pm

meanwhile i thought of very different aproaches too
1. strike on enemy movement - meaning if eg. a bomber moves within AA range it can shoot on that moving unit
- maybe it can shoot when it have action left (more fair than shooting down 10 planes in same turn) - however action can tricked by sending in a "decoy" to be shot and real bomber comes is after in same turn wiéthout being harmed.
if it is liked idea we need to open a new topic i think.

2. counter strike (and first strike too) can be set to ranged units too (so if that unit gets attacked from range it can shoot back)
- naturally here also can be a question of abilites should be included or not - as original topic.

Jasondunkel
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Re: Ability FirstStrike or Not

Post by Jasondunkel » Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:39 pm

I would wish for the first strike against abilities with 25-50%
you mean a probability (chance)?
[/quote]

no, i mean the damage that the first strike is supposed to have in its action

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:45 pm

first strike damage is equals by the counterstrike damage (currently)

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by Jasondunkel » Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:27 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:45 pm
first strike damage is equals by the counterstrike damage (currently)
I know that's the case, that's why I want 25-50% of the actual damage for the first strike. And if we can use that against the abilities as well, it would balance things out a bit.

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by Jasondunkel » Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:34 pm

I would agree with TnT that the current counterattack is pretty weak. almost all combat operations.

The examples given could then be converted to first strike with the desired 25-50% of the actual power under the condition of... against certain units.

let's take the smg example. The SMG unit gets a first strike against tanks because of their anti-tank grenade capability
but would not give a first strike against infantry

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by Jasondunkel » Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:44 pm

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:22 pm
meanwhile i thought of very different aproaches too
1. strike on enemy movement - meaning if eg. a bomber moves within AA range it can shoot on that moving unit
- maybe it can shoot when it have action left (more fair than shooting down 10 planes in same turn) - however action can tricked by sending in a "decoy" to be shot and real bomber comes is after in same turn wiéthout being harmed.
if it is liked idea we need to open a new topic i think.

2. counter strike (and first strike too) can be set to ranged units too (so if that unit gets attacked from range it can shoot back)
- naturally here also can be a question of abilites should be included or not - as original topic.
to 1

we have already taken up the idea. from the thing beautiful, but very complicated in the first view. Let's assume there is a small anti-aircraft wall. i.e. 4-5 anti-aircraft units are staggered. can they all shoot the plane? And if another plane comes, can you shoot again if it's the same round?
if you say it could only shoot if it has actions left, how does the engine recognize that? and with the heavy aa ... they only ever have one action. i.e. if the aa fired in the round, she could not react.
and how much damage can the aa's then do?

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by Stratego (dev) » Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:48 pm

can they all shoot the plane?
all can shoot but probably the ones having avctions left.
how does the engine recognize that?
not sure what u mean, the engine knows which unit has actions left or not, and (as i rememer) all actions are given back on start of new turn.
and how much damage can the aa's then do?
too much detail atm to figure out - maybe bull or half as counterattacks? idk

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by TntAttack » Tue Dec 06, 2022 2:01 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:22 pm
meanwhile i thought of very different aproaches too
1. strike on enemy movement - meaning if eg. a bomber moves within AA range it can shoot on that moving unit
- maybe it can shoot when it have action left (more fair than shooting down 10 planes in same turn) - however action can tricked by sending in a "decoy" to be shot and real bomber comes is after in same turn wiéthout being harmed.
if it is liked idea we need to open a new topic i think.
I quite like this idea. I always assumed it wasn't possible.
Issues/considerations
- Range and damage. E.g the further away the enemy aircraft is, the less damage taken. Suggestion: Standardise aa damages with abilities attacks e.g. long range aa attack, short range aa attack.
- Should we consider a target priority ability for aa (and Artillery too) on which enemy unit they should prioritise? E.g. aa ability to lock on enemy bomber (assuming the player can see the bomber) with priority ability so that players can "counter" the decoy strategy?
(I imagine it being frustrating to have your defenses overcome because the enemy spammed fighter planes. On the other side, I think it would be annoying for players to have to build decoy planes to overcome enemy aa defenses)

But overall. I am for this idea. Please open a topic for it.
Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:22 pm
2. counter strike (and first strike too) can be set to ranged units too (so if that unit gets attacked from range it can shoot back)
- naturally here also can be a question of abilites should be included or not - as original topic.
I am interested.
Considerations
- My 4 ranged artillery attacks an enemy 3 ranged artillery. Can the engine detect and understand not to apply counterattack on my 4 ranged artillery?
- Can the engine decrease ranged counter attack over range e.g. anti tank gun with 2 range gets shot by 2 ranged tank destroyer. Counterattack damage should be full at 1 range and half at 2 range.
- Mortar should be about to counterattack at 2 range, but not at 1 range.
- Sniper: Should it keeps first strike or it gets an "strike on enemy movement".
- Naval ships: Yes to ranged counterattacks but range damage balancing needed.
- As for whether ranged abilities should get counterattack... I say no.
- Torpedos ability no counterattack unless you have better idea.

Strike on enemy movement: Could be an ability that consumes one action. For that next turn, during enemy movement, has the ability to fire on enemy.
E.g. Aircraft carrier uses one (could be changed) action on "strike on enemy movement" ability. On the enemy's turn, that carrier will strike back with its aa ability.

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by DreJaDe » Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:35 am

TntAttack wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 am
1. Smg grenade and anti tank ability should receive counter attack damage.
- Note: Smg vs medium tanks/tank destroyers with high base damage would suffer due to their high counterattack.
Why?
TntAttack wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 am
4. Smg Ability Vs Snipers

Snipers firststrike should take effect first. If Smg unit survives, then smg grenade ability will take effect.
Smg woudnt.
Sniper would be so much OP with this and almost cannot be countered. No effective counter besides mortar and sniper which is not that good for balance.

They should be easily punishable and shouldn't make that much impact like IRL.
TntAttack wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 am
- Decrease anti tank gun damage
- Give anti tank gun 2 attacks (actions), movement takes 1 action
Instead. They should be able to hide in the trees and be balanced like in tanks.

Infantry also should be able to counter then more easily unlike the current where they are hard to kill for insignificant cost.
TntAttack wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 am
Suggestion 2: Classify anti tank guns into light and heavy anti tank guns.
Is there even things like this IRL?
TntAttack wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 10:36 am
AA firstrike
I dont get this first strike for them to be honest.
This makes the AA way too powerful and might make the bombers obsolete even more.

Yes, the currrent bombers are powerful but so is countering them.

You can increase rhe turns for light AA but def not for heavy ones.

Unless the first strike will have less damage... Then this wouldnt really work. Most of this.

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Re: Ability FirstStrike And CounterAttack

Post by TntAttack » Tue Dec 27, 2022 7:43 am

Stratego (dev) wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:22 pm
meanwhile i thought of very different aproaches too
1. strike on enemy movement - meaning if eg. a bomber moves within AA range it can shoot on that moving unit
- maybe it can shoot when it have action left (more fair than shooting down 10 planes in same turn) - however action can tricked by sending in a "decoy" to be shot and real bomber comes is after in same turn wiéthout being harmed.
if it is liked idea we need to open a new topic i think.

2. counter strike (and first strike too) can be set to ranged units too (so if that unit gets attacked from range it can shoot back)
- naturally here also can be a question of abilites should be included or not - as original topic.
Can we get this topic finalised... Dev do you have any new ideas?

Or just stick with these ones, they sound good.

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