Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing OBSOLETE

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Anchar
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Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing OBSOLETE

Post by Anchar »

I again tried to make a 1v1 fight with humans against orcs and again regretted not turning off the battle right away. I wondered why minotaur archers and uruk hai have a speed of 3 turns while their counterparts Imperials cost 5 turns, elven 6, phantom crossbowman 4? If we compare the Imperial archer and the minotaur archer, then the minotaur for some reason has more lives and armor + walking in the mountains + the ability to run that turns him into cavalry, Minotaur's damage is almost the same as that of the Imperials.

My opinion they could add value.
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makazuwr32
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by makazuwr32 »

Blame @Alexander82.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Alexander82
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Alexander82 »

In truth my idea was to give extra range to the imperial archer. Makazuwr32 opposed this.

I agreed to upscale the uruk archer's cost but I wanted to raise the attack proportionally (as it has no special abilities of any kind, no diehard no resurrection tweak, and thus it is better as a 3 turns disposable unit than a more costly elite).

For undeads, they will get an archer for cost 4 and range 9 later that, as all phantoms, will be able to resurrect on his own (that ability is definitely more powerful on unts that are far from the battlefield).

I can make changes to the imperial archer to get range 10 at base and its ability might just give a power bonus instead of extra range.
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Savra
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Savra »

You might also just give imperials a shield and armour upgrade as well.
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Alexander82
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Alexander82 »

I wanted that as well but I was waiting the upscale as I wanted me to avoid too high armor values with the old system (many units already took 1 damage).
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by makazuwr32 »

giving extra range to imperial longbowman means making humans on pair with elves in terms of range which i think is not good neither for balance nor for concept (elves must be best archers).
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Alexander82
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Alexander82 »

I would try the extra range on imperial archer and aee how it affect the elves vs humans balance.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Savra »

We could always give glade's their own blacksmith upgrades to counter the imperials.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Alexander82 »

I'm not sure about extra smithing for the glade units as they already have both good stats and dodge (that is % based and totally avoid the damage).

Glades, anyway, will be probably revised later in both abilities and cost.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by makazuwr32 »

Let's return to this topic after we will update glades' abilities.

Alex i am also waiting for you in discord so we can continue discussion about buildings.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Anchar
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Anchar »

What about the minotaur archer? It is much more dangerous and profitable than the imperial and Uruk Hai.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Alexander82 »

Anchar wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:59 pm What about the minotaur archer? It is much more dangerous and profitable than the imperial and Uruk Hai.
Do you really think so? I remember that it had a lower attack value than uruk archers.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Anchar »

Alexander82 wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:56 pm
Anchar wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:59 pm What about the minotaur archer? It is much more dangerous and profitable than the imperial and Uruk Hai.
Do you really think so? I remember that it had a lower attack value than uruk archers.
Honestly, I did not compare them with the archers of the Uruk hai and may have rushed to conclusions, however, I compared them with the archers of the Imperials, compared to which the minotaurs have: more lives, more armor (+ 2) higher speed and the ability that allows them to run faster than cavalry, without losing speed in the mountains, which helps them instantly run from the rear to forward positions, as well as make surprise attacks, to kill 1 such archer you will need 3 shots of human anti-archers, the attack is of course lower, but only by 6 which are compensated by the effect of orc shamans, it's pretty powerful in my opinion.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Alexander82 »

Imperials will get extra armor/shield values anyway and their archer will be brought to 10 range so that should definitely make it a better archer.

The ability of minotaurs have a long cooldown so you should compared them baed more on their actual speed (or by making an average of their speed) and later all cavalry units that are mounted on horse-like mount will get a charge-like boost.

I'm waiting for a feature from stratego (the idea is to make cavalry units and minotaurs more vulneralble against spears when they charge).
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Anchar »

Even if minotaurs become something like riders of archers, their cost of 3 turns is still cheap compared to them and it should be borne in mind that they can move through mountains, their recharge is only 3 turns, which is not that much in my opinion.

Even if we imagine the situation that you can kill him with a lancer: the lancer costs 4 turns, and the minotaur 3, and since he is an archer, he will always stay somewhere at a distance of 9 cells from your army, and he will always be guarded by orc support troops or will not give access to it at all, which are guaranteed to kill your lancer, which ultimately means that to kill an archer in 3 turns, you need to sacrifice a lancer in 4 turns.

And if this minotaur stands inside the mountains, then it will have to be beaten with flying spearmen in 5 moves that only people have at the moment.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Savra »

I agree on the minotaur archers needing a cost increase to 4. Since it's basically similar to a cavalry.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by desatixix »

Savra wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 3:57 pm You might also just give imperials a shield and armour upgrade as well.
but the orcs will make their upgrades at this time
haha,the orcs do BAM BAM
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Savra »

When orcs get a blacksmith building, a majority of the upgrades will be moved out of the tc and other buildings and into that building. This alone will put a major dent in orcs upgrading as a lot of their upgrades are linked with each other, meaning units that require multiple upgrades will be harder to upgrade even more so then before.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by Savra »

Actually, @Alexander82, if you haven't made the image yet, I could probably get the building done and ready for this next update and you could move the upgrades you want into it and out of the other buildings.
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Re: Increase in the cost of minotaur archers and uruk hai

Post by makazuwr32 »

@Savra Up to you.
We need that building and we need to discuss uruks and minotaurs.

I will change name of topic to "Minotaurs and uruks balancing".
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing

Post by Savra »

The building is already in, however the techs are were their supposed to be. I discussed this with stratego and we decided to make the new building be were you have to research techs that effect the whole race as a general.

Main unit upgrades will be researched at their coroponding buildings.

Uruks I might raise uruk archer to 4 turns but they should stay at a low cost as they require more time to upgrade then all other races elites.

Minotaur archer will be increased to 4 turns as well.
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Re: Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing

Post by makazuwr32 »

i want to discuss not "only" minotaur archer and uruk archer but in general both subs.
And building for minotaurs.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Re: Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing

Post by Savra »

I take it this is going to be about their cost and stats then?

If so, I don't think Uruks really need such modification as, what I stated before, they have upgrades that make up the difference, unlike other races who only need a blacksmith upgrade and they'll see results right away, the base uruk requires 2 techs to upgrade, Cavalry 3, and Olog Hai 4, and their soon to come great beast rider 5 techs. (Both great beast and Olog Hai require you to acquire trolls to begin with).

To top this off, fire users will get a major buff against trolls, +400% damage to be exact, plus, as me and stratego discussed, trolls will now be starting with 5% regen, maxing at 15% on master upgrades, so basically:
Troll headhunter: 5% regen
Elite Troll headhunter: 10% regen
Master Troll headhunter: 15% regen
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Re: Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing

Post by makazuwr32 »

About uruks and minotaurs - mainly i am concerned about their stooter type units (and in general about orcish shooters).
If we will nerf them (cost increase, attack reduce or something else) than some other units of same sub race might require slight buff i think.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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Savra
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Re: Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing

Post by Savra »

We can reduce their range for some units and increase cost of others I'm fine with this.

However some of this we should wait till after I'm done with the categories and bonuses update so I can do it all in one go, (actually more like when I'm doing it).
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Re: Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing

Post by Stratego (dev) »

this also seems old, can we close it?
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Re: Minotaurs and Uruks Balancing

Post by makazuwr32 »

Yes.
makazuwr32 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:54 amWhen you ask to change something argument why...
Put some numbers, compare to what other races have and so on...
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