PRI#7 Too cheap(for dwarfs) dwarf giants IMPLEMENTED

[Stratego (dev)]

Defender chevalier (11 turn, 650hp) and Defender lancer(9 turn, 540hp) too cheap for dwarfs.
Because Defender lancer have one more use than all other lancers - that antibuilding unit.

Decision: increase their cost to 12 turns for chevalier and 11 for lancer. Or even 12 for both.

[Stratego (dev)]

Makaw:

Defender lancers:
Will look later.

[makazuwr32]

I looked into them and no they are balanced cost wise well enough.
Due to not too high speed they are not that op as for me.

[Stratego (dev)]

Ok but Vlad disagrees as was listed,
Others what u think?

[Stratego (dev)]

@Jerryqian39 @Aral_Yaren @Savra
please share your thoughts.

[Jerryqian39]

All right dwarf is a late game race.The unit suppose to be very strong.The tc unit of late dwarf are enough to destroy other race.In the end the use rate of dwarf is pretty low through.The only good dwarf I played with is vald.and it is very long times ago.So I do not have too much experience but I still believe those two dwarf giant are not a big problem as they do not have base power range so they are not that destructive as are fine as it is.

[Anchar]

As I already wrote, I think that this sub-race is too expensive and by the time you make its units you will either be winning (and this unit will not even reach the front line before you win) or losing (and this unit will still not will be a turning point). The increase in the cost of these units is a bad way out of the situation, if there is an imbalance, then it is better to tweak the statistics.

[makazuwr32]

As I already wrote, I think that this sub-race is too expensive and by the time you make its units you will either be winning (and this unit will not even reach the front line before you win) or losing (and this unit will still not will be a turning point). The increase in the cost of these units is a bad way out of the situation, if there is an imbalance, then it is better to tweak the statistics.

on ridiculously big maps they may be used quite often, especially with proper planning of base with gold mines.
But still due to low speed they are not that high treat in attack. Best way to use them is to hold critical positions.

[Anchar]

In my last fight on dwarves against the undead (Jerry), my victory became clear even before I made the first spearman in the deep rear. However, that was a long time ago, and I just upgraded everything that came to hand without speedrunning specific tactics, and I also got lucky there at the start, so I don't know...

[Aral_Yaren]

It's better to reduce all their melee land giant's hp by -15%. They will still have those absurd amounts of hp plus those 40 max armor, not counting good healer dwarven have. Even only one D. War Mammoth gonna take many turns and units to take.

And nope, good dwarf players gonna have them at least in half midgame - and those giants are READY TO USE without needing many upgrades. 3 speed for such unit is considered high, and please they have speed boost even just +1 for 4 turn. When they, at least even one, arrive in front line critical point or tc, it'll be very tough to counter - moreover because DISARMOR spell cannot target unit inside tc (like I see before, don't know for now).

[makazuwr32]

Slingers still their bane.

Also we agreed to increase cd for abilities on gold mine so you will not get that fast them.

[Stratego (dev)]

so is it not a confirmed balance issue? (as i see not everyone says it is)
aral, vlad said: issue
jerry, makaw, anchar: said not issue

or am i misread something?

[Aral_Yaren]

I said it's issue, had explained why.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok! i updated my list in prev post.

[Vladneral]

I got this 11 turn giant on 23th turn when i had 6 tc, been under enemy push ( 2 vs 1 game) with bad start position - closest tc was in 2 turn from the start.

So orc opponent just cant stop it. And cause his Scaledfolk ally leave this game on 21th turn - he need hardly retreat cause orc out of good enough tools against this rhino - this beast just destroy everything on his way and he with having 20 tc (or more) against mine 6 cant do nothing with all this number advantage.

Just move forward fast without resistance.
Hard anti cavalry just bite him by a little because of extremily heavy armor that even disarmor spell can remove only a half so all hp restored by 2 healers in next turn.

[makazuwr32]

I got this 11 turn giant on 23th turn when i had 6 tc, been under enemy push ( 2 vs 1 game) with bad start position - closest tc was in 2 turn from the start.

So orc opponent just cant stop it. And cause his Scaledfolk ally leave this game on 21th turn - he need hardly retreat cause orc out of good enough tools against this rhino - this beast just destroy everything on his way and he with having 20 tc (or more) against mine 6 cant do nothing with all this number advantage.

Just move forward fast without resistance.
Hard anti cavalry just bite him by a little because of extremily heavy armor that even disarmor spell can remove only a half so all hp restored by 2 healers in next turn.

Getting them fast is balancing issue with gold mines not with their costs i think.

Alas i will look into them once again later.

[Savra]

Perhaps orcs just need a slinger at base, not a great one, but just one that's good enough to handle enemy Giants like this.

[makazuwr32]

In case of orcs i oppose to give them slingers.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok any suggestion to quick change?
i see suggested only these:
1. all dwarf giants: reduce all their melee land giant's hp by -15%
2. OR: increase their cost to 12 turns for chevalier and 11 for lancer. Or even 12 for both.

[Savra]

I could make a goblin slinger today if I have ready stats.

Basically what I was thinking of, was a unit similar to scaledfolks ones but 1 action, no shield.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok, but lets ask why makaw oppose to slingers, maybe that makes sense, and we have the other options too already suggested.

[makazuwr32]

I do not like to decrease their health.

But i see several issues with them now — Defender rhino lancer mainly:
Remove all buildings bonuses from it;
Change its cost up to 11 turns — indeed for such stats it must have higher cost, especially for dwarves;
And also change cost of defender chevalier up to 12 turns from current 11, of defender rhino rifleman up to 11 from current 10, of defender war mammoth up to 15 from current 14, of defender mammoth rifleman up to 14 from current 13.

[makazuwr32]

ok, but lets ask why makaw oppose to slingers, maybe that makes sense, and we have the other options too already suggested.

Reasons:
1. Orcs have lots and lots of ways to empower their units — that's their main power. Slinger of orcs will become annihilation cannons of every possible giant under all those buffs including even maxed Defender war mammoths under all buffs (if i calculated right than throwers would be able to get +25 attack and +1 action — +140 total damage to giants for this theoretical slinger with current bonuses). They even have in plans +1 action ability for their throwers and slingers ARE throwers.
2. Orcs are not supposed to deal with giants by using slingers but they are supposed to deal with them by using raw power (especially when buffed). Mainly by using their 2h orc swordmen (50 attack at base and 80 when maxed! double strike it, give extra armor, buff it with attack as much and you will get 3 turn cost unit with 120 attack x2 times (x3 in future)).
3. Orcs will get exclusive to them buff of "temporary veteraning" to even further improve their melee units via mass murdering. With it ettins having 250 attack is not impossible actually... Poor defender war mammoths with 80 armor maxed.

[Vladneral]

Can we make lancer more costly but leave anti buildings bonuses ? Or i believe that wonderful unique unit stand much less usable ...

[makazuwr32]

All melee defender rhino/mammoth riders will get proper anti-building bonuses later but for now it is better to remove them.

And in general all giant cavalry will get such bonus — elephants for example or planned mounted uruk hais.

[Vladneral]

That cool !

[Stratego (dev)]

so am i understand properly the proposed (and Vlad accepted) changes:
1. All melee defender rhino/mammoth riders anti-building bonuses removed
2. also Defender rhino lancer Change its cost up to 11 turns
3. also change cost of defender chevalier up to 12 turns (from current 11)
4. also defender rhino rifleman cost up to 11 (from current 10)
5. also defender war mammoth cost up to 15 (from current 14)
6. also defender mammoth rifleman cost up to 14 (from current 13)

are these?

[Anchar]

Doesn't that seem like overkill? Can we finish everyone up to 20 moves at once? The fact that Vlad made a speedrun does not mean that opponents of other races will not come up with something to speedrun in response.

Although I did not know that they have a bonus against towers, this changes the case, but in my opinion there is too much nerf (if this is not a choice)

[makazuwr32]

One of problems here is that dwarves have exceptional economic due to gold and gem mines and with those getting even 15 turn cost war mammoth for less than for 5 turns is quite easy for them. Even with planned nerf to gold mine

I remember that once i've got for 12 turns from single factory 3 war mammoths (for 14 turns cost). Basically i reduced cost of every mammoth down by 10 turns. That is not something what any other race could achieve.

[Anchar]

To be honest, when I used mines, they didn't really help me (although I didn't build them cell to cell and digit to digit) are they really that significant?Yes, maybe you got these units quickly, but at the same time you lost extra production by replacing them with accelerators, as if the Humans supplied a lot of couriers for the elephant speedrun. If your opponent survives the zerg rush, then later he can crush you by shooting the same magicians in 3 moves with magic arrows on human, elves + immobilize, don't mummies already work with their victim on the undead? As for the healers, they can be shot in advance by archers.