PRI#6 Fly lancers issue IMPLEMENTED

[Stratego (dev)]

Too little damage to other fly mount units - too hard to fight with elfs fly mount units especialy with pretty strong dodges, hp, speed and mental resistance. I see not much ways to fight with them.
And about ability that fly lancer(dwarfs and humans) have - i think it should increase speed or damage - not power range - i find that weird.

[Stratego (dev)]

makaw:

Flying lancers:
We will increase bonus to flying mounts for them.
But as for ability — it is not supposed to give extra attack. It gives extra aoe AND ability to pass through enemies.

[Stratego (dev)]

"We will increase bonus to flying mounts for them"
good!

what value i can set?

[makazuwr32]

For now let us set 200% bonus in place of 150% one and 125% bonus in place of 100% one.

[Stratego (dev)]

@Vladneral and other: is it ok?

[makazuwr32]

They anyway are supposed to be best lancers among lancers so this change is not a big issue.

They are still too vulnerable to anti-air shooters so giving them better bonuses is fine.

Alas even more i can't increase their damage.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok, i hope it is ok.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok than i set to ACCEPTED_SOLUTION with this:

For now let us set 200% bonus in place of 150% one and 125% bonus in place of 100% one.

open new one if anyone still think being unbalanced.

[Stratego (dev)]

i want to set it but i am not sure which units are "fly lancers"
i will find many but please list them so i dont miss any.


i found these:
- dwarf sabrecore lanceer - DONE
- elf eagle lancer - DONE
- elf peryton vanguard - DONE
- elf peryton protector - DONE
- elf peryton sentinel - DONE
- elf eagle glaive dancer - DONE
- human gryphon rider - DONE
- human imperial gryphon rider - DONE
- human warfell alicorn commander - DONE
- scaled saurian skyhunter - here problem: have different bonuses(not 150 or 100 and not even agaisnt flyers set), what shold i set?

[makazuwr32]

Regular foot units and saurian skyhunter must not be affected.

Why in the first place did you touch glaive dancer's foot form? Maybe you meant eagle glaive dancer unit instead?

Saurian skyhunter is not a lancer in the first place so it must not be changed at all.

[Stratego (dev)]

Saurina skyunter seems a flying lancer to me as
- it is flying
- it has a polearm visually
- and it has already a bonus like this:
"trnBonusList":[
{"modifier":2.4,"unitList":{"categories":["AND(", "U_MOUNTED", "NOT", "U_GIANTS", "NOT", "U_HEAVY", ")"]}},
{"modifier":0.8, "unitList":{"categories":["U_MOUNTED", "NOT", "U_HEAVY"]}},
{"modifier":0.6, "unitList":{"categories":["AND(", "U_MOUNTED", "U_HEAVY", ")"]}}
],
so basically an anti-"cavalry" unit.

glaive dancer's foot form:
actually i have not touched it, as it was using bonus copied (as a template) from the gryhon rider, but you are right it was the "eagle glaive dancer" so this is ok to change.

--------------------------------
btw: have i listed all?

[makazuwr32]

Lancer unit is the one who IS MOUNTED ON SOMETHING.
saurian skyhunter is not lancer since it has no mount. on what is it mounted? on its wings?

flying or not does not matter here.
Lancer is unit thatis riding some mount.

If for you saurian skyhunter is "lancer" than human halberdier and skeleton pikemen also must be "lancers", right?

[Stratego (dev)]

for me "lancer" is the weapon not the weilder, but ok, lets call it "polearm" unit that is "flying".
so it definitely should hit flyers - or not?

GROUND PLANE:
as the cavalry "polearm" are agaisnt cavalries (on ground plane).
and as halberdiers (polearm) good agasint cavalries (on ground plane)

MID AIR PLANE:
so a polearm weilding MOUNTED flyer should be good agasint flyer cavaleries (on flying "plane") - as they are already, it is ok.
so a polearm weilding flyer NOT MOUNTED should be good agasint flyer cavaleries (on flying "plane") - but it is not now, and that is weird to me as same situation as halberdier vs knight only in mid air

[makazuwr32]

That part giving better or worse bonus to non-lancer polearm units depending on movement type of both polearm unit and enemy cav will be done later, when we will have more than just 1-2 units per whole game.

as for now it is better for it to just have generic pikeman bonuses. As it is right now.

[Stratego (dev)]

i can live with it, it is just weird.
ok i closed this.

[makazuwr32]

i can live with it, it is just weird.
ok i closed this.

I know i also do not like such situation but we have only 1 (ONE) non-land pikeman unit right now in the whole game — saurian skyhunter. If we will get at least 3-4 of 'em it will be enough to make separation and give them different bonuses which will favour them to fight against flyers (that' s the ultimate plan in the end but it is hard to find proper polearm units for every race and every movement type).

[Stratego (dev)]

i think you see it more complex as it is, it can be simply called a "lancer" in your terms regardless of being mounted or not, as it can reack any flying unit.


on ground it is "valid" separation if someone is on a "mount" as it is
a) literally "high ground"
b) and having an anyimal "body" protecting the rider,
c) also maybe pushing down foot units with a heavy "horse" body or using its legs.
->> so better position to fight than a foot unit (and having bigger speed probably to run tru foot units) .

but in air there is no differentiation, all units can be considered on "same head level" as all are flying, so being a poolearm weapon in alone can be exactly same as riding on something
(btw even better: you have both hands free, while a rider maybe holds the animal he is riding with one hand).

but whatever.

[makazuwr32]

One of differences here will be that due to having no mount flying polearm foot units will have lesser speed and thus will not be able to deal same amount of damage as lancers who are using big and speedy mounts.

Foot units are better for defence, lancers for offence — that's the rule.
That is why lancers have offencive only bonuses while foot polearm units can deal bonus damage on counter as well.

[Stratego (dev)]

lesser speed :_
why? unmounted wigns are not as powerfuls as a mount wings?
(funny to talk about these lol )


but ok whatever.

[makazuwr32]

lesser speed :_
why? unmounted wigns are not as powerfuls as a mount wings?

Yes, regular foot flying units will have less speed than mounted flying units and those mounts by themselves. They might have higher speed than non-flying foot units but it is not the rule.

Mounts, whom all races are using, always are bigger than rider unit. Ofc they are stronger than unmounted unit regardless of if they are land walkers, swimmers or flyers.

We can look into this from other side — both foot and mounted land units are using their feet to move around, but why regular foot infantry can't have speed even somewhat comparable to mounted riders?
Answer: because mounts are stronger than the rider of the mount or otherwise they would not be able to move around in the first place. You will not get olog hai riding on horse — that poor horse will just die from the weight of olog hai.

[Stratego (dev)]

ok! i see the point!
let this topic be closed